How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

Neogaia777 said:

Keep fighting though, keep resisting, keep rebelling, for "your own (free) will", ect...

God Bless!

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Or...?

You could maybe start asking Him what "He wants from you in your life", what "His will is for you", ect, what "He wants you to do", ect, ect... from moment to moment, if you can, and "submit", and quit fighting (Him) and resisting (Him) and rebelling (against Him), ect, ect...

I mean it's going to happen anyway, either way, but you could maybe just at least ask Him to let you in on it, or let you know a little bit about it maybe...

Cause that is all your doing in the end...

God Bless!

aiki said:

You've learned well from James White.

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I believed what I believed before I met Dr. White.

He has much more of a gift than I do and I am okay with that. I am not that smart and I know it. I have over the years sought out some of the best teachers in the world and listened and spoke with them.
prov13:
20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.

From the tone of your posts, I can tell you have little if any biblical understanding carrying on the way you do.

Isa8 saw you coming;
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

If you want to learn , I would try and help you. If you persist in posting such foolish posts as this, you show yourself as an enemy of the cross of Christ speaking against an elder with no cause.

For anyone to take you seriously, post your objections with a scriptural base. I doubt you will because you know it will expose your defects.

I have a question and please forgive me if it has been covered already - I skipped some pages.

Where does this struggle come from in the Scriptures? The struggle of free will or not.

Neogaia777 said:

Keep fighting though, keep resisting, keep rebelling, for "your own (free) will", ect...

God Bless!

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Since you are bringing it up --
Who's actually rebelling? -- Anyone that refuses to hear and do as Christ says.

Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

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Christ finished the Old Law (of Moses) with its sacrifice laws and dietary laws and He established the new Law of Christ by His sacrificial death on the cross.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (of Moses), having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree” rsv

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. rsv

A person does not truly believe in Christ unless he strives to obey His laws/commandments.


1 John 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. rsv

A person does not truly love God unless he obeys God's commandments.

A person must freely choose to love/obey Christ in order to be His disciple.

When a person dies, he is judged by his works. He is not judged by his personal belief that he has faith in Christ.

Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

John 5:28-30
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life (heaven), and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment (hell).

Our works (good or evil) that we do on earth do determine where we will spend eternity.

Halbhh said:

Since you are bringing it up --
Who's actually rebelling? -- Anyone that refuses to hear and do as Christ says.

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Does He not say to do and seek the Father's will...? That His disciples are those who does His Father in Heaven's will, seeks it out above all else, ect...? Individually and for their own lives specifically, ect...? And not just generally, ect...? That will hear and heed His voice, ect...?

True, their voice is one in the same (now), but that would require just a little bit more explaining... Now that He is and They are "Spirit" now and are One (Spirit) now, One in Spirit now, ect... Anyway, it's a lot to explain in detail... Just that they are "now" is all... He is the Father's voice, They are each others voice (now) ect...

God Bless!

Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

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Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

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I'm not sure how you came up with that idea. Why only look at some passages and mor all of them?

BNR32FAN said:

If God’s election is true how can someone fail to abide in Christ as Jesus mentioned in John 15:6?

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God knew before He created the world which of the people that He would later create would obey Him until their death. These people are called FAITHFUL PEOPLE/God's elect. God also knew which of the people would not obey Him until their death. These people who would not obey Him until their deaths are called FAITHLESS PEOPLE.

So God's elect are those people whom He knew (before the foundation of the world) would still be faithful to Him at the time of their death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

The faithful people are the people who strive to obey God's commandments until they die.

Hebrews 4:11-12
Let us therefore strive to enter that (eternal) rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. rsv


So what will happen to those faithless people whom God knew would either not become obedient or remain obedient to His commandments until they died?

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
.....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. rsv


God has always known who His elect are. He predestined these faithful until death people to eternal life/rest. No one can ever snatch these faithful until death people out of His hand. God foreknew that these people would still be abiding in Him (obedient to Him) at the time of their death.

We will have to wait until after we die to find out who His elect/predestined are. We do not know who will still be abiding in Him/faithful to Him/obedient to His commandments at the time of their death.

I haven't read all of these posts on this subject but "free will" is a term that is bantered around as if anyone has even a cursory understanding of what it must mean. To put it in the most simple of terms.....God has given man a free will to choose....but not a will to choose freely. Man is burdened with a fleshly desire that cannot be altered outside of the divine work of the Spirit upon the heart.

Now, I will go back and read these posts that have been rendered upon this subject which is a good one.

Doug

Stephen Douglas said:

I haven't read all of these posts on this subject but "free will" is a term that is bantered around as if anyone has even a cursory understanding of what it must mean. To put it in the most simple of terms.....God has given man a free will to choose....but not a will to choose freely. Man is burdened with a fleshly desire that cannot be altered outside of the divine work of the Spirit upon the heart.

Now, I will go back and read these posts that have been rendered upon this subject which is a good one.

Doug

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Please pay special attention to my post #439, thanks...

Cause that would include the choice to cooperate or work with, or not with, the Holy Spirit or not also...

God Bless!

Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

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Did you know the New Testament references "The Faith OF Jesus Christ" more times than it references "Faith IN Jesus Christ?"

Jesus began as a Babe, grew as a child, Learned scripture better than any other Man, and "Grew in wisdom and in stature, and in favor with God and Man."

This implies Jesus at one point in his life, was not in full favor with God. He had to learn. And Learn he did.

And Christians are told to have the "FAITH OF Jesus Christ." Now that is an amazing standard for the Christian. It means I am to believe whatever God has to say; and follow the standard laid down by His son; be conformed to the image of His dear son; and lead others to comprehension of this valuable standard. Jesus always accepted what God said without hesitation, and if He did not have all the answers, His attitude was one of "I will do to the best of my ability, that which I am lead to do by my Faith in God."

It was Jesus who told John the Baptist, upon the occasion of the Baptism of Jesus, When John argued "I have need to be baptized of thee;" "Thus it behooves us to fulfill all righteousness." I have heard many brethren misapply that to mean "by being baptized I fulfill all righteousness."

That is not what Jesus was saying. He was saying, (in current coloquialisms) "Stop questioning what God said, John, and baptize me. This is how all righteousness is to be treated, thus fulfilled. Unquestioned and without doubt."

Thus do we emulate the Faith OF Jesus Christ. Not the old law, neither free will, except as we subjugate ourselves to the Father by the Faith OF Jesus Christ; unquestioning and freely.

Neogaia777 said:

Please pay special attention to my post #439, thanks...

Cause that would include the choice to cooperate or work with, or not with, the Holy Spirit or not also...

God Bless!

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I am sorry but post #439 does not seem to address the disposition of man’s will. Did I miss something?

Doug

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


If we can know who God "foreknew" we would also know who God "predestined".


Rom 11:1-2a I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.


It is obvious that Israel is both foreknown and predestined. (This clears up that whole "predestination" thing)

I believe this is where most of the confusion comes from about free will. It should also be obvious that not all Israel is considered Israel.


Rom 9:3-6 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;



This draws us to the conclusion that some of the very people that God predestined to become like His Son chose instead not to do so. They had/have a free will. Because we know that God does not wish anyone to perish and this would hold especially true to the very ones that He has predestined. We can know that it was not God who made them choose to not have faith and deny the Son.

But God will eventually have His way and the remnant of Israel WILL all be saved!

I should add that this includes the people from the nations that have joined theirselves to God's foreknown, chosen and predestined people Israel.

Dig4truth said:

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


If we can know who God "foreknew" we would also know who God "predestined".


Rom 11:1-2a I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.


It is obvious that Israel is both foreknown and predestined. (This clears up that whole "predestination" thing)

I believe this is where most of the confusion comes from about free will. It should also be obvious that not all Israel is considered Israel.


Rom 9:3-6 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. 6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;



This draws us to the conclusion that some of the very people that God predestined to become like His Son chose instead not to do so. They had/have a free will. Because we know that God does not wish anyone to perish and this would hold especially true to the very ones that He has predestined. We can know that it was not God who made them choose to not have faith and deny the Son.

But God will eventually have His way and the remnant of Israel WILL all be saved!

I should add that this includes the people from the nations that have joined theirselves to God's foreknown, chosen and predestined people Israel.

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You are assuming that the word translated “foreknew” is synonymous with “foresaw”. But it doesn’t say that in Romans 8 and it clearly doesn’t mean that.

Matthew 7:23 is a fine example of God’s “knowing” someone as Jesus commands that the man depart from Him because He never “knew” the man. Certainly Jesus knew who the man was but was not intimately connected to him. There are many, many biblical examples of the intimate “knowledge” that God has for His elect.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 is another.

Adam “knew” his wife. The entire context of Romans 8 is based on a special and intense spiritual relationship between God and His adopted children and ends with “there is nothing that is able separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord”.

None of this would indicate that God merely looks down the corridor of time to see who would freely “choose” Him and as a result elects that person. Again, Romans 8:29 doesn’t say that God foresaw what men would choose. It merely states that those who were foreknown by God were predestined.

Doug

Doug, how is foreknown any different than foresaw? If God foreknew someone then He certainly foresaw them and if He foresaw them He certainly foreknew them. He knows the end from the beginning, right?

Jan001 said:

God knew before He created the world which of the people that He would later create would obey Him until their death. These people are called FAITHFUL PEOPLE/God's elect. God also knew which of the people would not obey Him until their death. These people who would not obey Him until their deaths are called FAITHLESS PEOPLE.

So God's elect are those people whom He knew (before the foundation of the world) would still be faithful to Him at the time of their death.

Revelation 2:10
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. rsv

The faithful people are the people who strive to obey God's commandments until they die.

Hebrews 4:11-12
Let us therefore strive to enter that (eternal) rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. rsv


So what will happen to those faithless people whom God knew would either not become obedient or remain obedient to His commandments until they died?

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” rsv

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
.....when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. rsv


God has always known who His elect are. He predestined these faithful until death people to eternal life/rest. No one can ever snatch these faithful until death people out of His hand. God foreknew that these people would still be abiding in Him (obedient to Him) at the time of their death.

We will have to wait until after we die to find out who His elect/predestined are. We do not know who will still be abiding in Him/faithful to Him/obedient to His commandments at the time of their death.

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Why does God graft in those who will not endure and abide in Christ if He has not chosen them to be predestined to salvation?

Dave, in your opening post you said:

“In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.”

And you just posted a similar statement. Here are several reasons why I believe this could be expressed in a much better way.

One is that you are implying that ancient Israel and us today were saved in different ways. As in Israel had to earn their salvation by works. It was then, and is now, that we are saved by grace through faith. No difference. Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. (Gal 3:16)

Another is the assumption that the law is opposed to faith. The law (Torah, i.e. Instruction) is not opposed to our faith. (Rom 3:31)

Lastly, what is our greatest command? To love, correct? We are told that we are to love God and our fellow man. In fact Yeshua said that ALL of God’s Instructions (Law) is based on these commands. In short the “law” is all about love!

We are told that if we love Yeshua then we will keep/guard His commands (instructions). We are told by the Apostle John that “The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; I John 2:4

Yeshua did not do away with God’s Instructions (Law), He did not add to them or take away from them. If He had that would have been sin. He did tell us to observe them and that fits well with being saved by grace through faith.