1 Corinthians 13, Omniscience and Hyperbole?

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Paul was struck blind for 3 days by Jesus. This happens to all true believers. Right?

No, we don't have all Paul's experiences, I am saying we cannot accurately add meaning to Paul's verses that he didn't mean.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Looking at 1 Corinthians 13 and reference to self sacrifice, all knowing and angelic tongues, I challenge that this is not hyperbole or exaggeration as some think.

Particularly looking at this word of the apostle Paul exegetically. That what Paul meant then limits what what Paul and that passage can mean to us now.

Paul being an ancient man could not have meant to refer to the modern concept of "omniscience". In saying that he may have the the ability of prophecy to look into mysteries. The people he addressed at that time knew him and that he could reveal their secret thoughts, of sins and other good thoughts towards edification... when he preached to them live. That over time Paul could penetrate all mysteries with prophecy.

In the second place, Paul mentions Roman punishment that really happened, people being burned to death, and angelic languages used by men and women on Earth.

Here is the definition of Omniscience:

Having infinite understanding awareness and insight.
Possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

This definition came to exist as theology developed and is a modern idea. Not first century.

Here is part of ESV 1 Corinthians 13:
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind

Here are some other scriptures about the same thing:
Exo_35:31 (BBE) And he has made him full of the spirit of God, in all wisdom and knowledge and art of every sort;
Job_15:8 (BBE) Were you present at the secret meeting of God? and have you taken all wisdom for yourself?

Rom 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.

Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Point being, this is not hyperbole or exaggeration.

I think the following verse could be construed that way, but better applied that God is omniscient, and it comes off that way based on the connection of the person and God.

"None of us, my lord the king," said one of his officers, "but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom." (2 Kings 6:12)

DamianWarS · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Looking at 1 Corinthians 13 and reference to self sacrifice, all knowing and angelic tongues, I challenge that this is not hyperbole or exaggeration as some think.

Particularly looking at this word of the apostle Paul exegetically. That what Paul meant then limits what what Paul and that passage can mean to us now.

Paul being an ancient man could not have meant to refer to the modern concept of "omniscience". In saying that he may have the the ability of prophecy to look into mysteries. The people he addressed at that time knew him and that he could reveal their secret thoughts, of sins and other good thoughts towards edification... when he preached to them live. That over time Paul could penetrate all mysteries with prophecy.

In the second place, Paul mentions Roman punishment that really happened, people being burned to death, and angelic languages used by men and women on Earth.

Here is the definition of Omniscience:

Having infinite understanding awareness and insight.
Possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

This definition came to exist as theology developed and is a modern idea. Not first century.

Here is part of ESV 1 Corinthians 13:
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind

Here are some other scriptures about the same thing:
Exo_35:31 (BBE) And he has made him full of the spirit of God, in all wisdom and knowledge and art of every sort;
Job_15:8 (BBE) Were you present at the secret meeting of God? and have you taken all wisdom for yourself?

Rom 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.

Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Point being, this is not hyperbole or exaggeration.

Omniscience is the ever presence of all knowledge, it is not simply the access to all knowledge which a gift of the HS would be more about.

Hazelelponi · Jul 17, 2019

My vote:

This is an obvious example of hyperbole - a common figure of speech used stress a point in that day.

Paul's point was to emphasize the utter importance of love in our Christian faith and walk.

You won't be a God, if your saved.

Hazelelponi · Jul 17, 2019

DamianWarS said:
If Paul was using hyperbole so was Christ. Paul connects "prophetic powers" to "understand all mysteries and all knowledge" which is what you pick up on, but he also connects "all faith" to "so as to remove mountains" amoung others. I'm sure you recall Mat 17:20 where Christ says "if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

one common problem with both of these passages is there's no record (that I'm aware of) where a mountain is moved by faith. So either Christ and Paul are using hyperbole or they are drawing on the idea that through God there is an infinite amount of power. Since we know that the latter is true the problem is not the amount of power but rather combining the power with acts that are not birthed out of love.

So which part is the hyperbole? the amount of power or the power with the wrong focus? I suggest it is the latter as Christ himself says that nothing is impossible with God Paul is only using similar ideas to bring attention to a different point which is the need of love not the amount of power. I would say the more difficult thing to accept is power from the HS without love, but the unlimited potential should be uncontested.

With God, and though the Holy Spirit our access to God, there is nothing that impossible with God.

However, we ARE human, as God specifically told Moses:

“...you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Exodus 33:20

To avoid such fatal encounters, God appeared as a man, angel, burning bush, and a pillar of cloud or fire.

However we have contact with His Holy Spirit now in this New Covenant, but it's in a limited or partial manner, due to OUR limitations, not Gods. (As Paul says, for now I know in part, then, face to Face see 1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

That partiality is capable of more than we imagine. Since I've been saved, I've definitely seen "mountains" in my own life moved, one of them was that I was saved at all, and then on top of that, the miraculous workings of God in my life and heart.

but the word "mountains" here is symbolic, in my understanding and experience. Certainly perhaps it can be literal - but who even wants to move a literal mountain? We do however want to move the symbolic mountains of our lives, that actually need moved in order to serve the Living God..

That is the call of the hour.. not the literal, and that is within the Will of God, that we serve Him, as we pray "Your Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven"

When God's Holy Spirit moves those symbolic mountains in each of our lives, previously an impossibility without Him and His Spirit working within us, we are enabled to do His Will on earth... and serve Him.

So, when Jesus used the word "mountains" it should be seen as symbolic.

Eloy Craft · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
what scripture means is limited to the author's original intent.

Hello there! You should think this out further. The meaning of the author's words, if from God, originate in eternity. As time proceeds the Prophets words proceed with it describing reality at every moment. They say a Word from the Lord and it continues to reveal the Truth to them as well as others as events unfold. Words from the Holy Spirit are eternal.

DamianWarS · Jul 17, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
With God, and though the Holy Spirit our access to God, there is nothing that impossible with God.

However, we ARE human, as God specifically told Moses:

“...you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Exodus 33:20

To avoid such fatal encounters, God appeared as a man, angel, burning bush, and a pillar of cloud or fire.

However we have contact with His Holy Spirit now in this New Covenant, but it's in a limited or partial manner, due to OUR limitations, not Gods. (As Paul says, for now I know in part, then, face to Face see 1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

That partiality is capable of more than we imagine. Since I've been saved, I've definitely seen "mountains" in my own life moved, one of them was that I was saved at all, and then on top of that, the miraculous workings of God in my life and heart.

but the word "mountains" here is symbolic, in my understanding and experience. Certainly perhaps it can be literal - but who even wants to move a literal mountain? We do however want to move the symbolic mountains of our lives, that actually need moved in order to serve the Living God..

That is the call of the hour.. not the literal, and that is within the Will of God, that we serve Him, as we pray "Your Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven"

When God's Holy Spirit moves those symbolic mountains in each of our lives, previously an impossibility without Him and His Spirit working within us, we are enabled to do His Will on earth... and serve Him.

So, when Jesus used the word "mountains" it should be seen as symbolic.

I'm always amazed how people will interpret passages like the creation account with strict literalness but when Christ says something that seems impossible it must be symbolic or at best apostolic.

Hazelelponi · Jul 17, 2019

DamianWarS said:
I'm always amazed how people will interpret passages like the creation account with strict literalness but when Christ says something that seems impossible it must be symbolic or at best apostolic.

You don't know me or my beliefs at all, so it helps for you to address the post and what I said, and not accuse me of things you don't even know the truth of..

Let the Bible interpret itself.

Zechariah 4:7
"Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it."

Zechariah 4:7 Commentaries: What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"

When Scripture itself uses mountain symbolically, why would Jesus speak any differently - when He was a Rabbi, our Teacher of Scripture, as well as the Messiah, the fulfillment of prophecy and what all Scripture pointed to?

He knew Scripture, and He commonly spoke in Scripture and/or employed the same use of language..

Acts2:38 · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
When what is perfect comes...

Through my studies, I find that "that which is perfect" to come, is the completion of scripture which is to say the bible.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, it was estimated to be somewhere in the 50's AD. The last apostle John, completed the scriptures (last book being Revelation) around early 90's AD.

Also, as I observe the world today, I don't see anyone who can speak a language automatically without any study into it and get it perfect and fluent. I also do not see anyone who can heal someone by the touch of their hand. And furthermore, I dont see any apostles alive today that can pass on these gifts.

Because, in all of the new testament I only see two cases where the Holy Spirit gave people gifts without an apostle laying hands on them- Acts 2:1-5 and Acts 10:44-46. The rest of the time, it was an apostle laying on of hands to spread out gifts, ie Acts 8:14-18.

Ephesians 4 also had something to say about gifts, and that Paul once again hinted at them being temporary.
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Since scripture is the word of God, it would thereby be perfect, regardless of it being a simple human that wrote it. We know in scripture that the Holy Spirit moved these people and guided them in all things to say/write. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Even more, we know that gifts/miracles were only to "confirm" the word. Since the bible is complete and everything that needed to be done and said is finished, there is no more need for miracles/gifts. Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:1-4; 2 Corinthians 2:11-12

Since the completion of Scripture, there hasn't been not one supernatural deed done. I believe people have watered down the words supernatural and miracle. Supernatural and miracles are things done that go against the normal process of nature.

Example:
Babies are not miracles. It was a blessing given to all way back in Genesis. They all happen by a natural process. Jesus's birth was a miracle. A natural process was stopped and the supernatural happened.

A mans cancer went into remission after he sought treatment. Not a miracle. Nothing interrupted the natural processes.

However, I would agree that God's "providence" is involved. That is different than a miracle or supernatural though. Providence from God would be more like this example:

A baby is born, grows up to desire being a doctor, studies hard, becomes a doctor. Situations arise that this doctor then moves to area and hospital facility were another person just so happens to need a life threatening surgery. Though the doctor was originally scheduled for day shifts, they were assigned night shifts recently. It just so happened that the patient came in at night, and need this surgery pronto. Well, here is this doctor who comes in to successfully save this person.

That is providence. A lot different than a miracle/supernatural. Nothing interrupted the natural process of things.

Long story short though (in conclusion), 1 Corinthian 13 is not only a chapter about love being the greatest among all gifts, it also alludes to the scriptures completion and the eventual vanishing away of "miracle gifts" that create supernatural processes.

Last sample:
When "THAT" which is perfect comes...."

the word "THAT"

Is Jesus a "THAT"?

or is "THAT" applied to scripture (inanimate object)? [Revelation was complete 30 years later]

RDKirk · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Looking at 1 Corinthians 13 and reference to self sacrifice, all knowing and angelic tongues, I challenge that this is not hyperbole or exaggeration as some think.

Particularly looking at this word of the apostle Paul exegetically. That what Paul meant then limits what what Paul and that passage can mean to us now.

Paul being an ancient man could not have meant to refer to the modern concept of "omniscience". In saying that he may have the the ability of prophecy to look into mysteries. The people he addressed at that time knew him and that he could reveal their secret thoughts, of sins and other good thoughts towards edification... when he preached to them live. That over time Paul could penetrate all mysteries with prophecy.

In the second place, Paul mentions Roman punishment that really happened, people being burned to death, and angelic languages used by men and women on Earth.

Here is the definition of Omniscience:

Having infinite understanding awareness and insight.
Possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

This definition came to exist as theology developed and is a modern idea. Not first century.

Here is part of ESV 1 Corinthians 13:
1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind

Here are some other scriptures about the same thing:
Exo_35:31 (BBE) And he has made him full of the spirit of God, in all wisdom and knowledge and art of every sort;
Job_15:8 (BBE) Were you present at the secret meeting of God? and have you taken all wisdom for yourself?

Rom 15:14 I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another.

Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Point being, this is not hyperbole or exaggeration.

I have a real question here:

You appear to be attempting to change the conventional understanding of what that passage means.

But what difference does it make to Paul's point?

1213 · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
…

Here is part of ESV 1 Corinthians 13:

1Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

1Co 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

1Co 13:4 Love is patient and kind...

I think that is not about Paul telling he is all knowing etc. The point is that even if he would be, it would be nothing, without love. It tells about how important love is.

And the other scriptures, I don’t think Paul is claiming to be omniscient. but with the Spirit of God, it is possible that he has more knowledge than normal person would have. But in that case is not Paul’s goodness, but God’s who influences in disciples of Jesus.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Michael Collum said:
I think the following verse could be construed that way, but better applied that God is omniscient, and it comes off that way based on the connection of the person and God.

"None of us, my lord the king," said one of his officers, "but Elisha, the prophet who is in Israel, tells the king of Israel the very words you speak in your bedroom." (2 Kings 6:12)

I never suggested Paul was omniscient. Rather that he was not referring to omniscience.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

DamianWarS said:
Omniscience is the ever presence of all knowledge, it is not simply the access to all knowledge which a gift of the HS would be more about.

Yes, Paul was not referring to omniscience.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
My vote:

This is an obvious example of hyperbole - a common figure of speech used stress a point in that day.

Paul's point was to emphasize the utter importance of love in our Christian faith and walk.

You won't be a God, if your saved.

I disagree that this was hyperbole as in fiction, but the uttermost of what was really possible.

In God and more so in Heaven and more so still when we are glorified, we will be like God.

Hazelelponi · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
I disagree that this was hyperbole as in fiction, but the uttermost of what was really possible.

In God and more so in Heaven and more so still when we are glorified, we will be like God.

That's what Satan said... "you will be like God" Genesis 3:5

that's the phrase that caused the fall of man..

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
With God, and though the Holy Spirit our access to God, there is nothing that impossible with God.

However, we ARE human, as God specifically told Moses:

“...you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Exodus 33:20

To avoid such fatal encounters, God appeared as a man, angel, burning bush, and a pillar of cloud or fire.

However we have contact with His Holy Spirit now in this New Covenant, but it's in a limited or partial manner, due to OUR limitations, not Gods. (As Paul says, for now I know in part, then, face to Face see 1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

That partiality is capable of more than we imagine. Since I've been saved, I've definitely seen "mountains" in my own life moved, one of them was that I was saved at all, and then on top of that, the miraculous workings of God in my life and heart.

but the word "mountains" here is symbolic, in my understanding and experience. Certainly perhaps it can be literal - but who even wants to move a literal mountain? We do however want to move the symbolic mountains of our lives, that actually need moved in order to serve the Living God..

That is the call of the hour.. not the literal, and that is within the Will of God, that we serve Him, as we pray "Your Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven"

When God's Holy Spirit moves those symbolic mountains in each of our lives, previously an impossibility without Him and His Spirit working within us, we are enabled to do His Will on earth... and serve Him.

So, when Jesus used the word "mountains" it should be seen as symbolic.

Jesus could literally moves mountains but the symbolic mountains matter more.

Paul the apostle, was moving symbolic mountains, and oh how much better for the early church it would have been if he moved Nero out of the way!!

If Paul had time with close gifted and anointed friends to penetrate many great mysteries, ten years off for it, that would be what Paul means by his words in 1 Corinthians 13 on all mysteries.

Paul was practical to preach on what really mattered rather than look into mysteries.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
That's what Satan said... "you will be like God" Genesis 3:5

that's the phrase that caused the fall of man..

Scripture also says, "you made him a little lower than Elohim." And it is a cross the board traditional theology that we will be glorified who are the children of God. Satan spoke in half truths. Adam and Eve did become more like God, knowing good from evil, but it was premature and disadvantageous. Nevertheless God is good, we get to keep it, and go on from there with Christ's sacrifice to later be glorified as creatures knowing good from evil.

People in near death experiences describe a heightened state of peace and knowledge in the light of life before sadly coming back into the bodies after resuscitation.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
With God, and though the Holy Spirit our access to God, there is nothing that impossible with God.

However, we ARE human, as God specifically told Moses:

“...you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Exodus 33:20

To avoid such fatal encounters, God appeared as a man, angel, burning bush, and a pillar of cloud or fire.

However we have contact with His Holy Spirit now in this New Covenant, but it's in a limited or partial manner, due to OUR limitations, not Gods. (As Paul says, for now I know in part, then, face to Face see 1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

That partiality is capable of more than we imagine. Since I've been saved, I've definitely seen "mountains" in my own life moved, one of them was that I was saved at all, and then on top of that, the miraculous workings of God in my life and heart.

but the word "mountains" here is symbolic, in my understanding and experience. Certainly perhaps it can be literal - but who even wants to move a literal mountain? We do however want to move the symbolic mountains of our lives, that actually need moved in order to serve the Living God..

That is the call of the hour.. not the literal, and that is within the Will of God, that we serve Him, as we pray "Your Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven"

When God's Holy Spirit moves those symbolic mountains in each of our lives, previously an impossibility without Him and His Spirit working within us, we are enabled to do His Will on earth... and serve Him.

So, when Jesus used the word "mountains" it should be seen as symbolic.

If you think of practical Paul, and how busy Moses was, and imagine Moses with an obedient Israel, spending years with them exploring mysteries with the voices from the pillar of fire and the great angels, then they was have expanded in knowledge magnificently!

Hazelelponi · Jul 17, 2019

GoldenKingGaze said:
Scripture also says, "you made him a little lower than Elohim." And it is a cross the board traditional theology that we will be glorified who are the children of God. Satan spoke in half truths. Adam and Eve did become more like God, knowing good from evil, but it was premature and disadvantageous. Nevertheless God is good, we get to keep it, and go on from there with Christ's sacrifice to later be glorified as creatures knowing good from evil.

People in near death experiences describe a heightened state of peace and knowledge in the light of life before sadly coming back into the bodies after resuscitation.

Being God's children doesn't make us "like" or equal to God. We are human, a little higher than the angels; not even close to God - One we cant even look upon without death.

Our desire should be worship of Him and life in service to Him and His children - not aspirations of grandeur.

Knowledge of the afterlife is best coming from Scripture, where it is described for us.. we are certain there isn't satanic or demonic influence when we trust in His Revelation to His people.

GoldenKingGaze · Jul 17, 2019

Acts2:38 said:
Through my studies, I find that "that which is perfect" to come, is the completion of scripture which is to say the bible.

When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, it was estimated to be somewhere in the 50's AD. The last apostle John, completed the scriptures (last book being Revelation) around early 90's AD.

Also, as I observe the world today, I don't see anyone who can speak a language automatically without any study into it and get it perfect and fluent. I also do not see anyone who can heal someone by the touch of their hand. And furthermore, I dont see any apostles alive today that can pass on these gifts.

Because, in all of the new testament I only see two cases where the Holy Spirit gave people gifts without an apostle laying hands on them- Acts 2:1-5 and Acts 10:44-46. The rest of the time, it was an apostle laying on of hands to spread out gifts, ie Acts 8:14-18.

Ephesians 4 also had something to say about gifts, and that Paul once again hinted at them being temporary.
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Since scripture is the word of God, it would thereby be perfect, regardless of it being a simple human that wrote it. We know in scripture that the Holy Spirit moved these people and guided them in all things to say/write. 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20-21.

Even more, we know that gifts/miracles were only to "confirm" the word. Since the bible is complete and everything that needed to be done and said is finished, there is no more need for miracles/gifts. Mark 16:20; Hebrews 2:1-4; 2 Corinthians 2:11-12

Since the completion of Scripture, there hasn't been not one supernatural deed done. I believe people have watered down the words supernatural and miracle. Supernatural and miracles are things done that go against the normal process of nature.

Example:
Babies are not miracles. It was a blessing given to all way back in Genesis. They all happen by a natural process. Jesus's birth was a miracle. A natural process was stopped and the supernatural happened.

A mans cancer went into remission after he sought treatment. Not a miracle. Nothing interrupted the natural processes.

However, I would agree that God's "providence" is involved. That is different than a miracle or supernatural though. Providence from God would be more like this example:

A baby is born, grows up to desire being a doctor, studies hard, becomes a doctor. Situations arise that this doctor then moves to area and hospital facility were another person just so happens to need a life threatening surgery. Though the doctor was originally scheduled for day shifts, they were assigned night shifts recently. It just so happened that the patient came in at night, and need this surgery pronto. Well, here is this doctor who comes in to successfully save this person.

That is providence. A lot different than a miracle/supernatural. Nothing interrupted the natural process of things.

Long story short though (in conclusion), 1 Corinthian 13 is not only a chapter about love being the greatest among all gifts, it also alludes to the scriptures completion and the eventual vanishing away of "miracle gifts" that create supernatural processes.

Last sample:
When "THAT" which is perfect comes...."

the word "THAT"

Is Jesus a "THAT"?

or is "THAT" applied to scripture (inanimate object)? [Revelation was complete 30 years later]

Paul meant that each generation would finish with the use of gifts.

Oh how great if the early was not persecuted to so many deaths. It would have expanded so wonderfully beyond Europe. But Paul was killed with Peter, 66 AD.

The church stopped growing at this time, use of healing gifts in healing rallies is recorded into the third century. We still need the gifts. We started to get up from our sick bed with the protestant missionaries like the Moravians and John Wesley, John. G. Lake. and now Christ For All Nations.

The plain meaning of 1 Corinthians 13 on the perfect thing to come, is Christ return, but then by word striving as Paul mentions to Timothy, the Greek word "Teleios" is like the only arrow pointing left in the three chapters plain meaning from 12-14 of Corinthians. Some say since it must grammatically be a thing, that it cannot mean Christ after all. And over twenty minutes explain the alternate meaning of the chapters. But! Teleios can refer not to a person but a thing that comes from a person, not the Bible from God but on Christ's return, the perfect and greater revelation than either prophecy or the Bible. When Christ comes he said it would be like "lightning" lighting up east and west at the same time. Lightening, light, revelation, is a thing. It is THAT perfect thing.

1 Corinthians 13, Omniscience and Hyperbole?

Was Paul using hyperbole and referring to omniscience? Is that what he meant at the time and now?

Paul was referring to omniscience.

Paul was referring the greatest real power of the gift of prophecy.

Paul was referring to another possible power.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Follower of Isa Al Masih

:sighing:

:sighing:

Myth only points, Truth happened!

Follower of Isa Al Masih

:sighing:

Well-Known Member

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Disciple of Jesus

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

:sighing:

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

:sighing:

Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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