How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

DavidPT said:

Post #306 appears to answer the when, and that it doesn't align with the 'when' Amil believes it to be. satan can't be bound until after Revelation 12:17 has been fulfilled first. Revelation 12:17 clearly involves the 42 month reign of the beast. And John in Revelation 20:4 made it undeniably clear, that the 42 month reign of the beast, it precedes satan being loosed after the thousand years expires. In order for Amil to be correct, the beast of Revelation 13 has to still be alive and well during satan's little season. Impossible if Revelation 20:4 is indicating otherwise.

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Look, not only you have failed to find God's definition for the beast in Scripture but the timing of Revelation 12, 13, and 20 to fit your Dispensational pre-tribulation view is unbiblical. And you do not know MY version of amillennial since I have not revealed my position on the subjects you mentioned. So you have no idea what you are talking about.

parousia70 said:

Jesus himself directly applies His thief’s coming of Revelation 16:15 to FIRST CENTURY PEOPLES in Revelation 3:3, cementing it’s fulfillment to the 1st century.

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Rev 16:12-16
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Listen to me, Parousia70. You can't prove verse 15 speaking of 1st century UNLESS you FIRST explain the context on verse 12-14. What does the great river the Euphrates has to do with Jersualem in 70AD? What does the river Euphrates represent? And how the water was dried up? Who were the kings of the East?

And also explain what does the frogs coming out of the mouths of dragon, beast and false prophet signifies? Since they are the spirits of devils with working miracles. What working miracles were it? And it was Christ the one who gathered them together, how? So you thought it was about Jersusalem in 70AD? Prove it! Explain the context I asked you, I dare you. Let hear this from you and Little Lamb. Come on...

Only when you stretch, twist, metaphorize, elasticize or otherwise ignore or redact Revelation 3:3 from your Bible, can you arrive any any other conclusion besides that which Jesus Himself teaches in Revelation 3:3 about the 1st century timing of His thief’s coming.

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LOL! Like Little Lamb, you pull a verse out of the context and pretend you know what you are talking about when you are NOT! Let review the context, shall we?

Rev 3:1-4
(1) And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
(2) Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
(3) Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
(4) Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

This was the message to one of seven messengers (angels) of the church in Sardis which obviously refers to the New Testament Congregation. What does this have to do with the physical city of Jersualem in 70AD?

DavidPT said:

Go through post #306 and point out where I got any of those things wrong. Then show me the correct way to reason those things. In the meantime hard to take someone like you serious at times.

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Why should I? And I have! First your post was intended for mkgal1. And I already see that you have repeated your errors with mkgal1 AFTER I have DEBUNKED your interpretations BEFORE on other threads. You just did not like being corrected in the first place so you are just trying to stay relevant with your doctrine today.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This seems to be pretty much the exact same thing Jesus was teaching in the Discourse.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Though I'm certain you think otherwise, the context in Matthew 24:42-43 involves the 2nd coming. That should mean the context in Revelation 3:3 involves the 2nd coming as well.

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What's your point?
I think you need to better define what you mean by "2nd coming"?

Jesus has come and does Come MULTIPLE TIMES Post ascension.

The only reference to His appearing a SECOND TIME in scripture is His appearing only to those who look for Him:
Hebrews 9:28

There is no scripture that says He appears "a second time" for all people or people who do NOT look for Him..

The Coming of Christ s a Thief took place in the 1st century Just as Jesus PROMISED it would.

Unless you believe He was Mistaken? or worse yet, flat out LIED?

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but yours is a very weak cement. Just so you will know, Jesus DID NOT COME in the first century. His coming is STILL future. The vast majority of scriptures prove this.

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So your Contention is that He Lied to the People at Sardis?

Or perhaps you believe it was an Honest Mistake on His part to Promise His thief's Coming would befall them?

iamlamad said:

I hope you are not trying to tell us that Jesus' authority over the devil, extended now the church, is what this binding in Rev. 20 is? Of course it is NOT.

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Rather, it is.

While some believers do exercise authority of the devil today, He is still free to wreck havoc in other's lives.

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Which Believers Does Satan have power over today?

Can you name any?

He is by no means "bound" today as he will be during the millennial reign of Christ.

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Wait... are you suggesting that in this future "millennial reign", Even unbelievers will enjoy a life of Victory Over Satan?
Even Unbelievers will get to share in Christ's Victory over Him?

Where is that taught in Scripture that Unbelievers will have victory over Sin, Satan etc...??

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I believe Armegeddon involved the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad and the Great City is 1st century Jerusalem and we are now in the 1000 yr period. I don't know how Amills view it.

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TribulationSigns said:

You have no clues!

So you now believe that the events in 70AD involved with destruction fo Jerusalem were the fulfillment of the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 16? Seriously?

Rev 16:12-16
(12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
(13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
(14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
(15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Do you know what the great river Euphrates represents? What does the water was dried up signifies? Or do you dare to think the river Euphrates was evaporated in 70AD? Who were the kings of the east? Who are the frogs that come out of the MOUTHS of the dragon, beast and false prophets? What are the spirits of devils? Did Christ talk about a physical place called "Armageddon" in verse 16? Have you studied the word, Armageddon itself, which is a mount of Megiddo? Did you understand any spiritual signification concerning this place in the Old Testament?

So many questions that you did not answer this before with me the other day, but now you admit that the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16 is linked to 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem? Please tell me what you understand in Scripture and spare me from some silly preterism doctored videos of yours.

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Love the new look


===============================

TribulationSigns said: ↑
And?
I am still waiting for your position on Revelation 16 ACCORDING to the CONTEXT which you have failed to explain to justify your interpretation. I do think you are a full preterist to even dare to consider Revelation 16 fulfilled in 70AD.

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In the SOP for the Eschatology forum it states this about partial preterism (and also states that it is a viewpoint that IS "allowed" on CF):

TribulationSigns said:

This was the message to one of seven messengers (angels) of the church in Sardis which obviously refers to the New Testament Congregation. What does this have to do with the physical city of Jersualem in 70AD?

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Obviously?
I find it extremely suspicious whenever someone defends their particular interpretation of a given scripture by saying "It obviously means what I say it does".

Is it your contention that this was not directly addressed to and delivered to an actual first century Congregation of living, Breathing Human Beings alive in Asia Minor at the Church at Sardis?

Again, you are metaphorizing and twisting this plain literal text to suit your bias.
You have to, in order to force fit Revelation 3:3 into your paradigm.

Take a look again:

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

If, as you claim, He did not come upon them as a thief TO THEM, BACK THEN, like He promised He would TO THEM, BACK THEN, then He is a False Prophet not to be believed on ANYTHING He said, per Deuteronomy 18:22

That's your corner you've painted yourself into friend.
I know of the only way out.
You're always welcome to take it.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This seems to be pretty much the exact same thing Jesus was teaching in the Discourse.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

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That's an astute observation.

parousia70 said:

So your Contention is that He Lied to the People at Sardis?

Or perhaps you believe it was an Honest Mistake on His part to Promise His thief's Coming would befall them?

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No, my contention is that you don't understand His message to Sardis.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

This seems to be pretty much the exact same thing Jesus was teaching in the Discourse.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Click to expand...

I also think we can add these passages to be included with the same theme:

Matthew 24:42-43 ~ Therefore, stay alert! You don't know what day the Lord is coming. But you understand that if the head of the house knew at what time the thief would come, he would keep alert and wouldn't allow the thief to break into his house.

Revelation 3:3 ~ So remember what you received and heard. Hold on to it and change your hearts and lives. If you don't wake up, I will come like a thief, and you won't know what time I will come upon you.

Matthew 12:29 ~ Can people go into a house that belongs to a strong man and steal his possessions, unless they first tie up the strong man? Then they can rob his house.

Mark 3:27 ~ No one gets into the house of a strong person and steals anything without first tying up the strong person. Only then can the house be burglarized.

Luke 11:21-22 ~ When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his possessions are secure.
22 But as soon as a stronger one attacks and overpowers him, the stronger one takes away the armor he had trusted and divides the stolen goods.


Quoting from this article titled,
Jesus ‘Bound the Strong Man’ and What That Means for You
The Gospels are relevant because they showcase the victory that Jesus Christ, through his lifelong obedience, won on our behalf. The victory he won back then has cosmic and personal consequences that affect us right now.


To demonstrate such relevance, let’s turn to a difficult parable of Jesus: the binding of the strong man, as found in Mark 3:22–30. Although this passage can be a head-scratcher, it’s best understood as a parable explaining Jesus’s mission.

In Mark 3 Jesus’s mission is under attack. After announcing the coming of God’s kingdom (Mark 1:14–15), he begins to heal the sick, cast out demons, teach with authority, call disciples, and even forgive sins. But not everyone is happy with him. In Mark 3:22–30 the scribes challenge the source of Jesus’s authority, claiming it comes from Beelzebul, the prince of demons (Satan). In response, Jesus points out that his attacks on the kingdom of Satan invalidate the accusation that he’s working with Satan.

Jesus says he came to bind the strong man (that is, Satan) in order that he himself, as the stronger man (cf. Mark 1:7), might plunder Satan’s house. This is Jesus’s own explanation of the events we encounter in Mark 1–3.

But what did this binding of the strong man mean back then? And what difference does it make right now? Here are three key truths.

1. Jesus Came to Crush the Devil

2. Jesus Can Forgive Your Sins

3. Jesus Gives Life Where Adam Brought Death

~ Jesus ‘Bound the Strong Man’ and What That Means for You

TribulationSigns said: ↑
I am waiting for your position on the CONTEXT of Revelation 16. Let hear this out from you if you want to justify the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 16 being fulfilled in 70AD. If you are avoiding it, then obviously your interpretation is fatally flawed.

Oh... and also, you did not answer my question on Revelation 20. When did Satan cast into the Bottomless pit for "thousand years"? And when he comes out of Bottomless pit that God called "Gog and Magog." So I want to see how you reconcile your Revelation 16 interpretation to fit with Revelation 20 and Ezekiel 38/39 Gog and Magog. Hummmm...

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parousia70 said: ↑
Jesus himself directly applies His thief’s coming of Revelation 16:15 to FIRST CENTURY PEOPLES in Revelation 3:3, cementing it’s fulfillment to the 1st century.

Only when you stretch, twist, metaphorize, elasticize or otherwise ignore or redact Revelation 3:3 from your Bible, can you arrive any any other conclusion besides that which Jesus Himself teaches in Revelation 3:3 about the 1st century timing of His thief’s coming.

Click to expand...

iamlamad said: ↑
Sorry, but yours is a very weak cement. Just so you will know, Jesus DID NOT COME in the first century. His coming is STILL future. The vast majority of scriptures prove this.

Click to expand...

parousia70 said: ↑
So your Contention is that He Lied to the People at Sardis?

Or perhaps you believe it was an Honest Mistake on His part to Promise His thief's Coming would befall them?

Click to expand...

iamlamad said:

No, my contention is that you don't understand His message to Sardis.

Click to expand...

Those 7 Assemblies make for a fascinating study in themselves.....I translated them some time back here on CF if any are interested, and any feedback is greatly appreciated.....

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches

Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
EPHESUS
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
SMYRNA
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
PERGAMUM
Revelation chapter 2 - 1st four Churches
THYATIRA
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
SARDIS
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
PHILADELPHIA UNFINISHED

Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
Revelation chapter 3: The last 3 Churches
===============================
Preston Eby commentaries on them..........

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/tablecontents.htm

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 29
“What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyratira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea…the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches” (Rev. 1:11,20).

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series 31
“Unto the Messenger of the church of Ephesus write! These things saith He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks” (Rev. 2:1).......

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent. The Lord saw their trouble and tribulation, their poverty and imprisonment, their unswerving steadfastness and great faithfulness, and they did not need to be told to repent. It was in their hearts to repent when the need arose, for the work of God ran deep in their lives. Considering all they would suffer, the Lord said to them, “Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life” (Rev. 2:10). Another church against which the Lord laid no charge, nor did He tell them to repent, was the church in Philadelphia. The Lord saw that they kept His word and had not denied His name, or nature. Because they kept the word of His patience, by which the kingdom of God is inherited, He gave them wonderful promises.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Pergamos write!…” (Rev. 2:12).
The third church was the church in Pergamos. Pergamos means “elevated,” such as a citadel, tower, or an earthly elevation.
Pergamos was one of the most beautiful cities of the ancient world. The great altar dedicated to the chief Greek saviour-god, Zeus, was located in front of the temple of Athena which stood one thousand feet up on the conical hill where Pergamos was situated.................

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Thyatira write!…” (Rev. 2:18).
“These things saith the Son of God, who hath His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass; .............
The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches, although it is interesting to note that the church there is the smallest of the seven, and the city of Thyatira is the smallest of the seven cities.
Thyatira means “sweet perfume of sacrifice” and when you study this word it speaks of a perfume that sends forth its fragrance as the result of bruising, crushing, or breaking................

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars…” (Rev. 3:1).
prince of joy?
There is a strange situation in the church at Sardis, the church to whom the Lord revealed Himself as the One who has the seven spirits of God. Though the church at Sardis had the reputation of being a LIVE church…it did not appear that way to the Lord. “Thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead,” the Lord said, and even the little life they had was close to death. ..............

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church in Philadelphia write!…” (Rev. 3:7).
The Greek word for Philadelphia is Philadelphos and its meaning is “one who loves his brother.” Philadelphia was a young city founded and colonized by people from Pergamos.
Of the seven churches, two of them received no indictment from the Lord, nor were they told to repent. The church in Smyrna was known as the “suffering church” because of their severe persecutions, and they were not told to repent......

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
“And by the Messenger of the church of the Laodiceans write…” (Rev. 3:14).
It is interesting to note that the name Laodicea is composed of lao and dika, meaning “the people’s judgment” or “consensus of opinion as to what is right!” Other variations of rendering are: “power of the laity,” “the voice of the people,” “the people’s rights,” or “justice of the peoples.” Its name designates it as the democratic church, in which everything is swayed and decided by popular opinion, clamor, and voting, either within the church, or by adapting to the opinions, standards, and pressures of society without. Hence, Laodicea is a carnal, compromising, pusillanimous, self-righteous, and self-sufficient church!

Look at Mark 1:15 ~

.

.

i am still waiting for your explanation on the context of Revelation 16, Little Lamb. and yes I know you are easily distracted...even by my Avatar.

mkgal1 said:

I also think we can add these passages to be included with the same theme:

Matthew 24:42-43 ~ Therefore, stay alert! You don't know what day the Lord is coming. But you understand that if the head of the house knew at what time the thief would come, he would keep alert and wouldn't allow the thief to break into his house.

Revelation 3:3 ~ So remember what you received and heard. Hold on to it and change your hearts and lives. If you don't wake up, I will come like a thief, and you won't know what time I will come upon you.

Matthew 12:29 ~ Can people go into a house that belongs to a strong man and steal his possessions, unless they first tie up the strong man? Then they can rob his house.

Mark 3:27 ~ No one gets into the house of a strong person and steals anything without first tying up the strong person. Only then can the house be burglarized.

Luke 11:21-22 ~ When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his possessions are secure.
22 But as soon as a stronger one attacks and overpowers him, the stronger one takes away the armor he had trusted and divides the stolen goods.


Quoting from this article titled,
Jesus ‘Bound the Strong Man’ and What That Means for You
The Gospels are relevant because they showcase the victory that Jesus Christ, through his lifelong obedience, won on our behalf. The victory he won back then has cosmic and personal consequences that affect us right now.


To demonstrate such relevance, let’s turn to a difficult parable of Jesus: the binding of the strong man, as found in Mark 3:22–30. Although this passage can be a head-scratcher, it’s best understood as a parable explaining Jesus’s mission.

In Mark 3 Jesus’s mission is under attack. After announcing the coming of God’s kingdom (Mark 1:14–15), he begins to heal the sick, cast out demons, teach with authority, call disciples, and even forgive sins. But not everyone is happy with him. In Mark 3:22–30 the scribes challenge the source of Jesus’s authority, claiming it comes from Beelzebul, the prince of demons (Satan). In response, Jesus points out that his attacks on the kingdom of Satan invalidate the accusation that he’s working with Satan.

Jesus says he came to bind the strong man (that is, Satan) in order that he himself, as the stronger man (cf. Mark 1:7), might plunder Satan’s house. This is Jesus’s own explanation of the events we encounter in Mark 1–3.

But what did this binding of the strong man mean back then? And what difference does it make right now? Here are three key truths.

1. Jesus Came to Crush the Devil

2. Jesus Can Forgive Your Sins

3. Jesus Gives Life Where Adam Brought Death

~ Jesus ‘Bound the Strong Man’ and What That Means for You

Click to expand...

Gotta bind that strong one................

Matthew 12:29 `Or how is able any-one to be entering into the House of the strong-one/iscurou <2478>, and the instruments of him to snatch-away, if ever no first he should be binding the strong-one/iscuron <2478>? And then his House he shall be snatching-away.

Stoning of Stephen against the Law
Stoning of Stephen against the Law

Acts 6:10
And not they were strong/iscuon <2480> (5707) to withstand to the Wisdom and to the Spirit to which he talked.
Acts 7:1
And the High-priest said, "are these things so?"
59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [the Lord], and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"

Could there be a link between Reve 12:8 and Reve 20:11 concerning "place and heaven"? Interesting. Lots of Hebrew symbology..........

Reve 12:
7 And became battle in the heaven the Michael and the messengers of him do battle with the dragon and the Dragon battles and the messengers of it/him
8 and not he is strong/iscusan <2480> (5656)
neither place<5117> was found of them still in the Heaven.

This event seen from the land?

Luke 23:30 "..Mountains fall on us, hills cover us.."

Revelation 6:16
And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks:
'Be falling upon us! and hide us! from Face of the One-sitting/kaqhmenon <2521> (5740) upon the Throne,
and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin

This event seen from heaven?

Reve 20:11 And I perceived a great white throne,.
And the One sitting on it Whom from Face fled the Land and the Heaven
and place<5117> not was found to Them

ewq1938 said:

That's not related to what happens to Satan in Rev 20 because in addition to being bound by a chain BY AN ANGEL NOT CHRIST, he is cast into a bottomless pit, then the pit is shut and locked with the key the angel has, then a seal is also placed. That is four levels of security. This doesn't match the story of the strong man being bound and robbed.

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Maybe you've missed that Revelation is symbolic and NOT literal.