How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

Gup20 said:

In that case, I use my free will to choose to reject God and be saved anyway. Can I do this, or is my will not free afterall?

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Good question...?

God Bless!

Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

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It depends on what you use free will to do. You can use free will to believe and surrender to God's will or use free will to do it yourself.

How can a believer call an act of God arbitrary? Thus, hardly coming close to what scripture says about God's love being the motivating factor in choosing a people for Himself (1 John 4:9-10). Also, the greatest reason for God's eternal predestination of His elect is for His glory (Romans 9:23) which is clearly a premeditated and purposeful selection.

Nicodemus: Seeker of God (John 3:1-21)

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The wind cannot be controlled; it blows where it wishes. And though its general direction can be known, where it comes from and where it is going cannot be precisely determined. Nevertheless, the wind’s effects can be observed. The same is true of the work of the Spirit. His sovereign work of regeneration in the human heart can neither be controlled nor predicted. Yet its effects can be seen in the transformed lives of those who are born of the Spirit.

It is the sinner's responsibility to believe...

John 3:15 ... whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Acts 16:31 ... Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

ICONO'CLAST said:

It never existed period.
It does not exist anywhere in the universe.
Is God "free" ....to sin?

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Technically, God doesn't go against His will and anything that goes against His will is sin. Sin does exist, therefore free will must by necessity exist subsequently.

friend of said:

Technically, God doesn't go against His will and anything that goes against His will is sin. Sin does exist, therefore free will must by necessity exist subsequently.

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What goes against God's will...?

Or what does He not work into His express will or plans or purposes...?

Either for good or bad, ect...?

God Bless!

Aabbie James said:

How can a believer call an act of God arbitrary? Thus, hardly coming close to what scripture says about God's love being the motivating factor in choosing a people for Himself (1 John 4:9-10). Also, the greatest reason for God's eternal predestination of His elect is for His glory (Romans 9:23) which is clearly a premeditated and purposeful selection.

Nicodemus: Seeker of God (John 3:1-21)

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The wind cannot be controlled; it blows where it wishes. And though its general direction can be known, where it comes from and where it is going cannot be precisely determined. Nevertheless, the wind’s effects can be observed. The same is true of the work of the Spirit. His sovereign work of regeneration in the human heart can neither be controlled nor predicted. Yet its effects can be seen in the transformed lives of those who are born of the Spirit.

It is the sinner's responsibility to believe...

John 3:15 ... whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Acts 16:31 ... Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved

Click to expand...

Love is what motivated God to send Jesus to the world, but what motivates God to save certain people and not others? How does God chose whom the elect are?


John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.



Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Gup20 said:

1Jo 4:9 NASB
9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.​

Love is what motivated God to send Jesus to the world, but what motivates God to save certain people and not others? How does God chose whom the elect are?

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;

Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.


John 6:64
But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

1Peter 1:2
[chosen] according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.​

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. God’s elect (or chosen) are those who inherit the oath he made with Abraham. Those who are qualified as heirs of the promise or covenant.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Galatians 3:29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.​

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

Calvin didn’t realize that all Christians are saved by becoming qualified as part of the group of the “offspring of Abraham.” He mistakenly thought we all obtain righteousness the same way Abraham did – directly for his faith. However, this would mean that Christ (or some other sinless figures) would have to die once for each person who was saved – a life for a life. In the same way that we all inherited death from Adam, so too have we all inherited Christ’s righteousness. Christ directly exchanged (redeemed) His righteousness with Abraham, and then God promised Abraham that this righteousness would be an inheritance to all his descendants.

As Deuteronomy 30 says, you don't need to be regenerated to make the choice... it is a choice God commands us to make, not a choice God makes in heaven.

Click to expand...

So who chooses if we are saved or not saved...? Us or God...?

God Bless!

Gup20 said:

what motivates God to save certain people and not others?

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Romans 8:18-30 ... His Own Glory!

Gup20 said:

How does God chose whom the elect are?

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Romans 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Hammster said:

Doesn’t the darkness hate the light?

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The darkness is a world without Jesus.

ICONO'CLAST said:

Leighton Flowers has consistently been wrong for over a decade now.
Listening to his podcast might destroy brain cells with his anecdotal stories, and carnal Philosophy

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Says the Calvinist.

Gup20 said:

In that case, I use my free will to choose to reject God and be saved anyway. Can I do this, or is my will not free afterall?

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If you use your Libertarian Free Will to reject the Father’s Draw unto all men through Jesus Christ (1 John 2:2) it would be a bad idea.

Because we know God reconciled (ALL Men) unto God... (2 Corinthians 5:19)... we know that there is a magical ingredient required from mankind to respond to that reconciliation.

God honored the choice of Adam and Eve in the Garden. Personally, I wouldn’t reach away from Jesus.

Sola Fide

Neogaia777 said:

So who chooses if we are saved or not saved...? Us or God...?

God Bless!

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God chose the group "the descendants of Abraham" and that group has open enrollment based on whether we choose to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 8:16 NASB] 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

In both of these passages we see a synergy existing between God and man. Heaven and earth must partner together to bare witness to the choice man makes for salvation. Remember, in the mouths of 2 or 3 witnesses let every fact be established.

Neogaia777 said:

What goes against God's will...?

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People when they sin.

Hammster said:

Doesn’t the darkness hate the light? That was the question.

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Depends on what one believes darkness is.

Dave L said:

Free will permeates the world as far as it concerns law. The law holds people responsible based on their ability to obey or disobey it. And free will is in play wherever laws exist.

In the Old Testament, God held Israel responsible for keeping the Ten Commandments based on free will. But a problem develops when we try to import free will and law into the New Covenant. God did away with law and free will has no place. So if we keep free will, it is at the expense of turning the gospel into law And God’s grace into works.

Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. Naturally understood, believing is a trait of those who have eternal life. But if we keep free will, we turn this announcement into a law which in effect says whoever chooses to believe has eternal life. So we destroy the gospel and God’s grace turning them into law and works.

Other examples are the Philippian jailer who after the earthquake asked Paul “what must I do to be saved?” And Paul told him “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. Jesus says “whoever believes has eternal life”. So the jailer had eternal life and was a believer before he asked Paul for instructions. Or he would not have asked. But free will turns this into law and thinks salvation happens only after the jailer kept the law.

One more illustration is where Paul says “that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;” Romans 10:9 (NASB95). But again, a person must already believe with their heart, that is be saved, or they would not do this.

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Hi all, this is the point I think the point Dave is trying to make is that once you come to Christ you give up your own free will, you have the power to take it back, but by doing that will lose your salvation. Remember this scripture:

Matt 26:39 Going a little farther, he threw himself down with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if possible, let this cup pass from me! Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

So in order to please God and enter the kingdom of heaven, our will must be submitted to will of God the Father. Jesus Christ gave us an prime example of this.

And it goes deeper that. We have to surrender our heart, mind and soul to him.

In the Old covenant people had to preform deeds by their own will, just do's and don't s , not letting their will be guided by the Holy Spirit ,but by their own mind. It is independent will trying to fulfill the laws of God, contrasted to the submitted will accordance to the Spirit of God through Christ Jesus:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I'm living his will through him not my will trying to accomplish his. That is why it is Grace. I cannot do his will without him for he fulfills the law:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit

Man’s eye view: I have Free Will ... No you don’t... we have no Free Will! Do too! Do not! Do too!

God’s Eye View: I see they’re exercising their Free Will to argue if they have it or not.

Aabbie James said:

Romans 8:18-30 ... His Own Glory!

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What motivates God to save certain ones is His promises to Abraham.

Romans 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Click to expand...

He chooses the elect group called "the descendants of Abraham" and it is our choice whether or not to join that group.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Gal 3:6-9 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

[Gal 3:29 NASB] 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 4:10-13 NASB] 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

[Gal 4:22-27 NASB] 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."