Argument from truth

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I have read a tiny bit on universals and abstract objects. One thing I wonder is "what would reality be without us looking at it?" Would it be anything? We can't even fathom that thought. The properties we ascribe to things like "the blue sky up there", would they exist? Like "blue" and "up"? Even thinking about physical stuff like atoms and how they behave involves our subjective sense experience, even though we have sophisticated equipment. Can reality exist without being known? I'm not sure, but I think not.

And these abstract concepts I mentioned are part of reality. They exist in our minds. Are they more than mere illusions of physical phenomenon? Or are their real, objective existence best explained by an eternal mind?
It looks like you’re still conflating our ability to describe reality with reality itself. Sure, things like “blue” and “up” are ultimately abstract concepts within a mind, but they’re concepts that are used to describe reality. They are not the reality themselves. Their existence is easily explained by the subjective mind that houses them. No need to import an eternal mind.
 
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gaara4158

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I have no idea which is more likely. Any guesses?
I don’t know either. I think there are existential reasons to proceed as though there is some meaning, or at least create one for oneself, but as for what’s really true? I don’t even know how to begin examining that question objectively.
 
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Chriliman

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I don’t know either. I think there are existential reasons to proceed as though there is some meaning, or at least create one for oneself, but as for what’s really true? I don’t even know how to begin examining that question objectively.

Would you agree that there are two options - meaning either lasts forever or it does not? And would you agree that to hold to either position requires a bit of faith?
 
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gaara4158

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Would you agree that there are two options - meaning either lasts forever or it does not? And would you agree that to hold to either position requires a bit of faith?
Wait, eternal meaning? I don’t even know what that would mean, but I suppose that concept either being true or not true is an exhaustive dichotomy. But I don’t know how lasting forever makes something more valid that something that’s temporary.
 
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holo

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Would you agree that there are two options - meaning either lasts forever or it does not? And would you agree that to hold to either position requires a bit of faith?
If I may jump in -

Whatever gives me a sense of meaning, only lasts as long as my consciousness does - it's all in my mind. Whatever meaning I have in my life doesn't exist in and of itself, independently of me.

As far as "objective meaning" goes, who knows? I wouldn't know what that would be, or how to determine it.
 
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Chriliman

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Wait, eternal meaning? I don’t even know what that would mean, but I suppose that concept either being true or not true is an exhaustive dichotomy. But I don’t know how lasting forever makes something more valid that something that’s temporary.

You're right, it's an exhaustive dichotomy, but a necessary one to consider when seeking out the truth of reality and why we're here and our ultimate fate.
 
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Chriliman

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If I may jump in -

Whatever gives me a sense of meaning, only lasts as long as my consciousness does - it's all in my mind. Whatever meaning I have in my life doesn't exist in and of itself, independently of me.

As far as "objective meaning" goes, who knows? I wouldn't know what that would be, or how to determine it.

What if I ascribe meaning to your life, does the meaning in your life now exist objectively(independent of you)?
 
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gaara4158

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You're right, it's an exhaustive dichotomy, but a necessary one to consider when seeking out the truth of reality and why we're here and our ultimate fate.
I guess what I’m saying is I don’t buy into the idea that unless there’s some sort of objective meaning to life and the universe, there can be no real meaning of any sort. Meaning can be both subjective and valid.
 
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Chriliman

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I guess what I’m saying is I don’t buy into the idea that unless there’s some sort of objective meaning to life and the universe, there can be no real meaning of any sort. Meaning can be both subjective and valid.

What do you think of the mathematical statement that the ratio of finite to infinite is 0?

In this case the finite would be the meaning we ascribe to life and the infinite would be what's left after we're all gone.
 
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gaara4158

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What do you think of the mathematical statement that the ratio of finite to infinite is 0?

In this case the finite would be the meaning we ascribe to life and the infinite would be what's left after we're all gone.
That mathematical statement does more to define the value of infinity than the value of anything else. Something with infinite meaning (whatever that even means) might make something with finite meaning meaningless in comparison, but why is that comparison the arbiter of what’s valid?
 
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Chriliman

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That meaning would exist in your consciousness/life, not mine.

True, but you said you wouldn't know what "objective meaning" would be, or how to determine it and I'm just pointing out that it can exist within someone who's independent of you.
 
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Chriliman

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That mathematical statement does more to define the value of infinity than the value of anything else. Something with infinite meaning (whatever that even means) might make something with finite meaning meaningless in comparison, but why is that comparison the arbiter of what’s valid?

I don't know why you'd think that. If meaning is infinite, then anything within it would have infinite meaning, even 0 would have infinite meaning.

But this does reveal our different ways of thinking about these concepts and maybe we won't come to an agreement at this time.
 
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gaara4158

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I don't know why you'd think that. If meaning is infinite, then anything within it would have infinite meaning, even 0 would have infinite meaning.

But this does reveal our different ways of thinking about these concepts and maybe we won't come to an agreement at this time.
Yeah, what you’re saying doesn’t really compute with me. I don’t understand infinite meaning, or what it means for something to exist inside an infinite meaning, and I especially don’t understand what you’re saying about 0 having infinite meaning. Without nailing down solid definitions for these things, it all scans as incoherent.
 
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Chriliman

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Yeah, what you’re saying doesn’t really compute with me. I don’t understand infinite meaning, or what it means for something to exist inside an infinite meaning, and I especially don’t understand what you’re saying about 0 having infinite meaning. Without nailing down solid definitions for these things, it all scans as incoherent.

Well, as I said, it all depends if meaning is infinite. If meaning is finite, then the ratio I gave earlier must hold true, at least until we’re all gone then all bets are off lol :)
 
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gaara4158

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Well, as I said, it all depends if meaning is infinite. If meaning is finite, then the ratio I gave earlier must hold true, at least until we’re all gone then all bets are off lol :)
I still don’t know what you mean by “infinite meaning.” The logic doesn’t seem to hold when you substitute other things for meaning. If there exists an infinite bus, does that render all other buses non-existent? If so, I need to make new travel arrangements!
 
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Chriliman

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I still don’t know what you mean by “infinite meaning.” The logic doesn’t seem to hold when you substitute other things for meaning. If there exists an infinite bus, does that render all other buses non-existent? If so, I need to make new travel arrangements!

Haha!

By that I mean, meaning that has either always existed or came into existence and never ends.
 
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gaara4158

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Haha!

By that I mean, meaning that has either always existed or came into existence and never ends.
Ok, so if either of those were the case that sort of meaning would dwarf temporal meaning to insignificance. However, that’s a really big IF. In my experience, all meaning has been temporal, even if it felt profoundly significant. This might indicate that there is in fact no such thing as infinite meaning, otherwise how could I be so moved by a meaning that is essentially zero?
 
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holo

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True, but you said you wouldn't know what "objective meaning" would be, or how to determine it and I'm just pointing out that it can exist within someone who's independent of you.
Yes, but that still wouldn't be objective, it's just that it's subjective to someone other than me.

I suppose that IF there were some sort of "objective" or "ultimate" purpose that we were supposed to know about, then we would know about it. I don't see why God would choose to hide himself or the meaning of life from us. Unless us being clueless about it is somehow part of the plan.
 
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