The real purpose of water baptism in the NT

Guojing

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If you believe otherwise, then you need to explain how you can say there is more than one Gospel, when Scripture says that there's only one Gospel (Galatians 1:8). And if you want to argue that the kingdom was preached only to Israel, you also need to explain why St. Paul was there in Rome under house arrest, preaching the kingdom of God (Acts 28:30-31).

-CryptoLutheran

Gospel simply means good news. The good news proclaimed by Jesus and John the Baptist was NOT the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

It was that their promised Messiah and King is here. This was a promise to the Jews only. If you really read the 4 Gospels, no one understood then that Jesus had to die for their sins.

But with the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish nation with Stephen stoning, the good news was that belief alone in Jesus's DBR is sufficient to save one, apart from works. This was extended to both Jews and Gentiles, explaining your point about Acts 28.

That is the context of Galatians and why Paul stated that the Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer valid. As Acts 15 Peter stated, everyone Jew and Gentile are now to be saved by this gospel. Galatians was written after Acts 15.
 
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Guojing

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The errors in Dispensationalism are myriad. Calling what I'm talking about "Covenant Theology" seems needless to me, call it what it is: Christian theology.

-CryptoLutheran

You see the difference between the 2 of us?

I understand that truth is relative, while for you it seems to be black and white. =)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Gospel simply means good news. The good news proclaimed by Jesus and John the Baptist was NOT the death burial and resurrection of Christ.

It was that their promised Messiah and King is here. This was a promise to the Jews only. If you really read the 4 Gospels, no one understood then that Jesus had to die for their sins.

But with the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish nation with Stephen stoning, the good news was that belief alone in Jesus's DBR is sufficient to save one, apart from works. This was extended to both Jews and Gentiles, explaining your point about Acts 28.

That is the context of Galatians and why Paul stated that the Gospel of the Kingdom was no longer valid. As Acts 15 Peter stated, everyone Jew and Gentile are now to be saved by this gospel. Galatians was written after Acts 15.

So why did St. Paul preach the kingdom of God while in Rome?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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So why did St. Paul preach the kingdom of God while in Rome?

-CryptoLutheran

The Bible is silent there so we can only speculate. The best guess I can think of is that there were also Jews in Rome and they only understand the kingdom message as it is heavily prophesied in the OT.

Precedent can be seen in Acts 21, where Paul financed the head shaving ceremony, and what Paul said in 1 Cor 9:20-22

20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Bible is silent there so we can only speculate.

Except it's not silent, and we don't have to speculate. Because the Scriptures are very clear about what the kingdom is, and what the preaching of the kingdom is:

JesusCrucified.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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Except it's not silent, and we don't have to speculate. Because the Scriptures are very clear about what the kingdom is, and what the preaching of the kingdom is:

-CryptoLutheran

If you are saying the Gospel of the Kingdom is exactly the same as the Gospel of Grace, that is also the belief of Covenant Theology.

But a literal reading of the Bible will not yield that. So let's not claim scripture is clear when it is more of personal interpretation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If you are saying the Gospel of the Kingdom is exactly the same as the Gospel of Grace, that is also the belief of Covenant Theology.

Okay.

But a literal reading of the Bible will not yield that. So let's not claim scripture is clear when it is more of personal interpretation.

By literal reading of the Bible do you perhaps mean everything Jesus says in the Four Gospels?

Okay, let's try something. Using only the Gospels, what do you believe the kingdom of God to be? What does it refer to?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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Okay.

By literal reading of the Bible do you perhaps mean everything Jesus says in the Four Gospels?

Okay, let's try something. Using only the Gospels, what do you believe the kingdom of God to be? What does it refer to?

-CryptoLutheran

To understand the Gospel of the Kingdom, you need to connect the message in the 4 Gospels with the OT. Let me try here.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Luke 1 NLT 30 “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel[c] forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

God's plan to establish the Messianic kingdom was no secret to the Jews of Christ's day. The kingdom is the very theme of Old Testament prophecy and is described there in great detail. Jeremiah 23 is to me, the clearest passage describing that good news (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Then, in Luke, the angel Gabriel was telling all the Jews, thru his message to Mary, that Jesus was the fulfillment of what the OT prophets have been saying, that the Son of God will be like King David was to his people, the Jews, and he will begin a new earthly Kingdom. That was good news to the Jews, who were currently under Roman rule then.

Zechariah’s, father of John the Baptist, proclamation

Luke 1 (NLT)
68 “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has visited and redeemed his people.
69 He has sent us a mighty Savior[h]
from the royal line of his servant David,
70 just as he promised
through his holy prophets long ago.
71 Now we will be saved from our enemies
and from all who hate us.
72 He has been merciful to our ancestors
by remembering his sacred covenant—
73 the covenant he swore with an oath
to our ancestor Abraham.

Note all the references in this proclamation from Zechariah, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, was to Israel and the Jews. There is absolutely zero mention of the Gentiles.
 
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ViaCrucis

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To understand the Gospel of the Kingdom, you need to connect the message in the 4 Gospels with the OT. Let me try here.

Jeremiah 23:5 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

Luke 1 NLT 30 “Don’t be afraid, Mary,” the angel told her, “for you have found favor with God! 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. 32 He will be very great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his ancestor David. 33 And he will reign over Israel[c] forever; his Kingdom will never end!”

God's plan to establish the Messianic kingdom was no secret to the Jews of Christ's day. The kingdom is the very theme of Old Testament prophecy and is described there in great detail. Jeremiah 23 is to me, the clearest passage describing that good news (Gospel of the Kingdom)

Then, in Luke, the angel Gabriel was telling all the Jews, thru his message to Mary, that Jesus was the fulfillment of what the OT prophets have been saying, that the Son of God will be like King David was to his people, the Jews, and he will begin a new earthly Kingdom. That was good news to the Jews, who were currently under Roman rule then.

Zechariah’s, father of John the Baptist, proclamation

Luke 1 (NLT)
68 “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has visited and redeemed his people.
69 He has sent us a mighty Savior[h]
from the royal line of his servant David,
70 just as he promised
through his holy prophets long ago.
71 Now we will be saved from our enemies
and from all who hate us.
72 He has been merciful to our ancestors
by remembering his sacred covenant—
73 the covenant he swore with an oath
to our ancestor Abraham.

Note all the references in this proclamation from Zechariah, who was filled with the Holy Spirit, was to Israel and the Jews. There is absolutely zero mention of the Gentiles.

You are right that God's kingdom is a theme throughout the Prophets. But that theme has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom situated in the Levant, but everything to do with the kingdom which is above every other kingdom,

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Matthew 16:28

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" - Matthew 28:18

"While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven." - Luke 24:51

"And when He had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight." - Acts 1:9

And for whom is this kingdom to be preached?

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14

Instead of interpreting the Gospels through what you want the Old Testament to say, why not try reading the Old Testament through God's Word, Jesus Christ?

"It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it," - Isaiah 2:2

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" - Revelation 7:9-10

"And many nations shall come, and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." - Micah 4:2

"Then He said to them, 'These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third dsay rise form the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." - Luke 24:44-48

If you have ears, listen.

So, shall we try again, by discussing what the kingdom is, in Jesus' own words?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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You are right that God's kingdom is a theme throughout the Prophets. But that theme has nothing to do with an earthly kingdom situated in the Levant, but everything to do with the kingdom which is above every other kingdom,

"I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that shall not be destroyed." - Daniel 7:13-14

"Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Matthew 16:28

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" - Matthew 28:18

"While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven." - Luke 24:51

"And when He had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight." - Acts 1:9

And for whom is this kingdom to be preached?

"And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." - Matthew 24:14

Instead of interpreting the Gospels through what you want the Old Testament to say, why not try reading the Old Testament through God's Word, Jesus Christ?

"It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it," - Isaiah 2:2

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" - Revelation 7:9-10

"And many nations shall come, and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.' For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." - Micah 4:2

"Then He said to them, 'These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, 'Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third dsay rise form the dead, and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things." - Luke 24:44-48

If you have ears, listen.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, because the Jews rejected Jesus, the physical kingdom was postponed until the 1000 year millennium rule.

You do believe after the Tribulation, Jesus will reign on our earth correct? That is the physical kingdom that was promised.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, because the Jews rejected Jesus, the physical kingdom was postponed until the 1000 year millennium rule.

I must have missed the part where "the Jews rejected Jesus", my Bible says that the earliest Christians were Jews.

Jesus never came to establish an earthly kingdom. He's pretty clear about that,

"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from this world.' Then Pilate said to him, 'So you are a king?' Jesus answered, 'You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.'" - John 18:36-37

"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, 'The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or "There!" for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.'" - Luke 17:20-21

You do believe after the Tribulation, Jesus will reign on our earth correct? That is the physical kingdom that was promised.

No. I believe that Jesus is King right now. When the Lord returns in glory, He does not come to establish an earthly kingdom then either, but rather,

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

He reigns as King Messiah now, seated at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority; for His is an everlasting kingdom that can never be destroyed. But He shall come, in glory, on the Last Day, the dead shall be raised, and God will make all things new. World without end.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Guojing

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I must have missed the part where "the Jews rejected Jesus", my Bible says that the earliest Christians were Jews.

Jesus never came to establish an earthly kingdom. He's pretty clear about that,

"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from this world.' Then Pilate said to him, 'So you are a king?' Jesus answered, 'You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.'" - John 18:36-37

"Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, 'The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, "Look, here it is!" or "There!" for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.'" - Luke 17:20-21



No. I believe that Jesus is King right now. When the Lord returns in glory, He does not come to establish an earthly kingdom then either, but rather,

"Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every ruler and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

He reigns as King Messiah now, seated at the right hand of the Father with all power and authority; for His is an everlasting kingdom that can never be destroyed. But He shall come, in glory, on the Last Day, the dead shall be raised, and God will make all things new. World without end.

-CryptoLutheran

I see, you share the view of Amillennialists. Thanks for clarifying.

Millennial_views.svg
 
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