The Works Based Salvation - Whats the big deal?

Are you suggesting that works would have salvaged their relationships or bettered them in some way?

I’ve been in the company of people ruled by should’s and others who used the church to fill a void within themselves and their relationships. In their mind they abounded with fruit but the absence of joy and peace were difficult to stomach.

I am not a proponent of going through the motions. If I find myself unwilling to do something I don’t soldier through. I take the time to discover the reason why. Dryness often has a cause and I seek anointing in my works. I can feel the difference.

rockytopva said:

Most churches I hang around are not into what they call a works based salvation and generally frown on such an idea. But, to my annoyance....

1. Nobody wants to pray
2. There are no more revivals
3. Hard to find good musicians
4. Hard to organize youth activities
5. Church attendance is sporadic

Some of these folks end up leaving their spouses for greener pastures. And end up being very much unprofitable and uncommitted people. I think at least a little stress of good works is a good thing!

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To be clear I in no way believe we are saved by works. But, that being said, I very much agree. I taught on this just last week. Good works don't save us, but they do grow us in our gifts, mould us into His image and point us to His purpose for our lives. Therefore, what you outlined are some of the natural consequences of avoiding them.

rockytopva said:

When I tried to get things going in my church my feelings were that these were the sorriest menfolk I have ever met in the entire white race.... And that is a bad feeling!

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Have you considered the possibility that you weren’t a good fit for that church?

Salvation is not maintained by works.. they are just the natural result of salvation.
A new creation, essentially from a bad tree to a good tree.
Eventually every born again believer will show forth good works. It is inevitable!

Thanks, Rocky. I won't comment much on this, but I do see more and more Christians asking these same questions, and it's encouraging. I think as we wind down, it seems, nearer and nearer to the End, God is helping us come back together, in a way.

LaBèlla said:

If I find myself unwilling to do something I don’t soldier through. I take the time to discover the reason why. Dryness often has a cause and I seek anointing in my works. I can feel the difference.

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I think you mean that how we are while doing things is very important. And we look to God to tune us and correct us so we are obeying Him in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, the anointing of the Holy Spirit is with how God rules us in His own peace. The Holy Spirit's anointing is almighty, by the way, and God's peace is almighty. So, it is good to do everything the way He anoints us in His peace and this includes how He personally guides us . . . no time out!!! If we aren't with this, right away we need to stop and be corrected by God, then discover what He has us doing.

Jesus guarantees, "you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

So, if we are operating in true anointing in our ministry, we are in rest with Jesus > rest with His almighty power to keep us and protect us.

And there will be works while we are personally submitting to how God rules us in His peace.

And in case a child of God is not doing works in sharing intimacy with God in His own peace, this child of God is discovering correction which is guaranteed to every child of God > Hebrews 12:4-14 < and God's correction is not only bashing and guilt-tripping and punishing us; but God's correction changes our character so we become more and more submissive to how God rules us in His peace, in sharing with Him.

rockytopva said:

I am saying it is hard to get good things going on anywhere in this day and time. There are some churches on the brink of closure due to the lukewarmness and coldness of the time.

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I’m sorry you don’t have the community you seek. I hope you’re able to find a place where the fellowship and spirit enrich your own.

rockytopva said:

Most churches I hang around are not into what they call a works based salvation and generally frown on such an idea. But, to my annoyance....

1. Nobody wants to pray
2. There are no more revivals
3. Hard to find good musicians
4. Hard to organize youth activities
5. Church attendance is sporadic

Some of these folks end up leaving their spouses for greener pastures. And end up being very much unprofitable and uncommitted people. I think at least a little stress of good works is a good thing!

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I don't think the things you listed has to do with churches against legalism, but rather the times that we are living in. I would highly recommend reading books between the 16th-19th century, and you will see great stress on godly living from those who were against works-based religion. The puritans are the finest example I would give, thus why they were labelled with that name for their stress and strive for holiness in every area of their lives. It was in Charles Spurgeon's time (mid-1800's) that what we are experiencing today started to slide in churches.

Hammster said:

Stressing the gospel is the best thing.

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Exactly.

rockytopva said:

Most churches I hang around are not into what they call a works based salvation and generally frown on such an idea. But, to my annoyance....

1. Nobody wants to pray
2. There are no more revivals
3. Hard to find good musicians
4. Hard to organize youth activities
5. Church attendance is sporadic

Some of these folks end up leaving their spouses for greener pastures. And end up being very much unprofitable and uncommitted people. I think at least a little stress of good works is a good thing!

Click to expand...

The obligation to be righteous never went away for man with the New Covenant, rather we now finally have the right means to fulfill that obligation, by the Spirit, under grace, in communion with God, 'apart from Whom we can do nothing', John 15:5.

So, yes, man must be aware of this obligation; Jesus's burden is light, not non-existent. Should we think that the works done in accordance with Eph 2:10 or those done for "the least of these" in Matt 25, by which the sheep are separated from the goats, are "works of the Law" or works of the flesh or "filthy rags"?

I know that we are not saved by our works but I agree with the OP. Christians these days (myself included) are less inclined to obey and spend time with God anymore because we are not saved by our works. Every Christian HAS good works but most of the time we don't show our good works. We are still saved don't get me wrong. When Christ died he died for all of our sins past present and future. But isn't it just spitting in Christs face by not obeying God and by not living for him and in our good works? Don't we know that our lives are centered around good works and that we will be blessed a million times greater in the next life the more we live for God? Yet all of us continue to just live for ourselves because we aren't saved by our works. It's stupid.

Neostarwcc said:

I know that we are not saved by our works but I agree with the OP. Christians these days (myself included) are less inclined to obey and spend time with God anymore because we are not saved by our works. Every Christian HAS good works but most of the time we don't show our good works. We are still saved don't get me wrong. When Christ died he died for all of our sins past present and future. But isn't it just spitting in Christs face by not obeying God and by not living for him and in our good works? Don't we know that our lives are centered around good works and that we will be blessed a million times greater in the next life the more we live for God? Yet all of us continue to just live for ourselves because we aren't saved by our works. It's stupid.

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I know the ancient churches in the east and the west aren't respected by all, and I know that many denominations are divided with each other over this matter, but historically the church has never believed that faith and works are so separable that one could feel secure in their salvation if works/fruit/obedience aren't evident. Galatians 5:6 applies pretty well here:

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

fhansen said:

I know the ancient churches in the east and the west aren't respected by all, and I know that many denominations are divided with each other over this teaching, but historically the church has never believed that faith and works are so separable that one could feel secure in their salvation if works/fruit/obedience aren't evident. Galatians 5:6 applies pretty well here:

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

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Right. Every Christian has works but yet we are not saved by our works as stated by Jesus and by Paul. So if a Christian has no works at all than that person isn't a Christian at all and is not saved (see John 15:12). But for those of us who are saved and dont do enough works we just lose rewards. We cannot lose our salvation just our rewards.

rockytopva said:

Most churches I hang around are not into what they call a works based salvation and generally frown on such an idea.

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Where are you located? In my area and everywhere I have been, most churches SAY, " We are not into works based salvation." But ultimately they TEACH works based salvation. Most know that an outright teaching of works for salvation is unbiblical and off putting to most...........so they SAY the right thing( Salvation is FREE) But TEACH the wrong thing ( works based salvation.)

rockytopva said:

But, to my annoyance....

1. Nobody wants to pray
2. There are no more revivals
3. Hard to find good musicians
4. Hard to organize youth activities
5. Church attendance is sporadic

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More than likely these folks are getting the words......Grace BUT, Grace and, Grace plus, Grace however, Grace not free, Grace and works.

FREE grace and a solid teaching of the truth of the bible doesn't lead to "annoyance" of other sinners and their faults in their sin nature. But a works message most certainly will.

rockytopva said:

Some of these folks end up leaving their spouses for greener pastures. And end up being very much unprofitable and uncommitted people. I think at least a little stress of good works is a good thing!

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A LOT of GRACE really helps. From my experience this is what people who have WORKS stressed will do. Stressing works will make people throw up their hands in defeat. HIS GRACE gives victory.