Is it necessary for a Charismatic of any following to manifest signs?

Alithis

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I never said otherwise.



No; you need to read what I said - which was that we feed the hungry, care for the poor, underprivileged etc just as Jesus did.

You seem to be saying "just as Jesus did; that means we HAVE to do miracles or we are not doing as he did." That's your interpretation; not mine.
.as jesus did..
How did he care for the sick ..he healed them
How did he feed the 5000 ? He provided supernaterally...
Since when we are in him and he in us it is no longer i that live but Christ that lives in me .then to expect the power of God is unquestionable. God is never apart from his power.
To think in any other mindset is just an unbelieving mindset. Change your mind and agree with God.Expect God to be God
 
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ByTheSpirit

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And where you see Godly love you will see the power of God manifest...for God IS love.

But if a person who claims to be Christian never once sees a manifestation of God "a gift of the Spirit", are they indeed Christian?

Or is it possible for someone to just display God's power in other ways? Or rather, does God's power always have to manifest in a visible sign or wonder?

I would say no it does not and to my first question, yes they still may be.
 
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Alithis

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But if a person who claims to be Christian never once sees a manifestation of God "a gift of the Spirit", are they indeed Christian?

Or is it possible for someone to just display God's power in other ways? Or rather, does God's power always have to manifest in a visible sign or wonder?

I would say no it does not and to my first question, yes they still may be.
Its a bit like love that never manifests its existance .is it love ?
No its not.
Why would anyone want to believe in an ineffectual powerless God?
People often think cessationism is all about people arguing about tongues.. But i observe the unbelieving insidious cessationist mindset seeping in all over the place.
And it is just crazy to say or ask... Is a person a christisn if they dont ever see the power of God at work through them ...?
Its the wrong question.
The question is ..do they have the same holy Spirit that rose christ from the dead dwelling in them?
Or do they just have a knowldge about him. a form of Godlines that sounds so righteous but actually blatantly denies the power thereof.

The truth is, if a person never sees the power of the Holy Spirit moving through thier life they either do not have him or they have chosen to livevin a constant state of resistance against him . Because GOD has never ever changed.
 
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Strong in Him

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.as jesus did..
How did he care for the sick ..he healed them
How did he feed the 5000 ? He provided supernaterally...

How did he treat the poor and the lowest in society? He touched people who were unclean and therefore isolated and stigmatised. He ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners. He
had a woman brought to him who had been caught in the act of committing adultery, and he refused to condemn her.

Yes, he did miracles too. But he also told us to feed the hungry, visit those in prison, care for the poor, and commended those who did so. He said "you will always have the poor with you", not "I expect you to eradicate poverty by providing for everyone", or "I expect you to heal everyone".

Since when we are in him and he in us it is no longer i that live but Christ that lives in me .then to expect the power of God is unquestionable.

I do.
Any time God wants to use me to do a miracle and heal someone, he may, and will, do so. It's his power, his kingdom, his church, his Spirit who gives gifts etc etc.
I belong to him, want what he wants and commit myself to him. If he wants to work that way through me; I'm not stopping him.

To think in any other mindset is just an unbelieving mindset. Change your mind and agree with God.Expect God to be God

That's implying that if I don't go out and do miraculous things then I don't believe in God; that's nonsense.
I do expect God to be God - it's all him, not me.

Obviously we are not going to agree on this, and I don't fancy hanging around to be accused of not trusting, or believing in, God.
Enjoy your discussion. Try not to insult too many brothers and sisters; it's not a great example of love.
 
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Strong in Him

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Or is it possible for someone to just display God's power in other ways? Or rather, does God's power always have to manifest in a visible sign or wonder?

:oldthumbsup: :amen:

Scripture says that creation displays the power of God - all the natural beauty we see around us was created by him, from nothing.
People becoming Christians and new creations displays the power of God - being born again, renouncing their life of sin, being filled with his Spirit and serving him. Some give up alcohol, drugs, gambling, judgemental attitudes, hatred, anger - all start to live for God. THAT demonstrates his power.
Answered prayer displays his power.
WE display his power - and love - when we live for him, refuse to compromise or renounce our faith, live separately from the world and show HIS love to those society treats as rubbish.

Implying that God's power is only seen when we heal miraculously is, ironically, limiting God.
 
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Alithis

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It is almost always the wide and easy path people hurry down ...
The path that does not confront with the hard questions..
The path that just speaks things easy on the ears..

The mindset that says its Gods kingdom he wil do it when its his will ....
Conveniently ignores that he said all authority is given me ..now YOU go in my name..
We are called to seek out the lost and destroy the enemies work in thier lives so that they may be set free and rebuilt .

But some just want to say no no..just love them inside the enemies work , leave them
a prisoner. Just because Jesus said he gives you authority doesn't give you the right to use it where ever you like...
Well im not sorry.. Because that is exactly what he meant.
The only reason people dont even try -is fear and unbelief.
The opposite of the two things we are always told by God to be... Bold and very courageous .
Never unbelieving, never fearful, never self excusing..
 
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Strong in Him

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But some just want to say no no..just love them inside the enemies work , leave them
a prisoner. Just because Jesus said he gives you authority doesn't give you the right to use it where ever you like...
Well im not sorry.. Because that is exactly what he meant.
The only reason people dont even try -is fear and unbelief.
The opposite of the two things we are always told by God to be... Bold and very courageous .
Never unbelieving, never fearful, never self excusing..

You're welcome to your opinion.
I completely disagree with your implication that we have to serve the Lord by doing healing miracles or we're not serving him at all. You're entitled to hold this opinion - but not to judge others for not doing as you do.
We're all Christians serving the Lord and doing the things he wants, and leads us, to do.

Bye.:wave:
 
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Alithis

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You're welcome to your opinion.
I completely disagree with your implication that we have to serve the Lord by doing healing miracles or we're not serving him at all. You're entitled to hold this opinion - but not to judge others for not doing as you do.
We're all Christians serving the Lord and doing the things he wants, and leads us, to do.

Bye.:wave:
Innocence needs no justification.
My Post was not too any one.
But i often observe its only those who get defensive that feel the need to justify themselves.

As far as im concerned
.Jesus said go do it..
He never did it without power and if we teach people to expect none then we are not teaching the truth .

In allmost every post on any of these topics you encourage people to have no expectation of Power in obeying the living God...
You say you believe but your action shouts that you dont believe in the power of God.
By the fact that you encourage no one to have faith in a Powerful God.
You encourage them in quite the opposite.
 
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Strong in Him

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In allmost every post on any of these topics you encourage people to have no expectation of Power in obeying the living God...
You say you believe but your action shouts that you dont believe in the power of God.

You're entitled to your view and false judgement of me.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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It is almost always the wide and easy path people hurry down ...
The path that does not confront with the hard questions..
The path that just speaks things easy on the ears..

The mindset that says its Gods kingdom he wil do it when its his will ....
Conveniently ignores that he said all authority is given me ..now YOU go in my name..
We are called to seek out the lost and destroy the enemies work in thier lives so that they may be set free and rebuilt .

But some just want to say no no..just love them inside the enemies work , leave them
a prisoner. Just because Jesus said he gives you authority doesn't give you the right to use it where ever you like...
Well im not sorry.. Because that is exactly what he meant.
The only reason people dont even try -is fear and unbelief.
The opposite of the two things we are always told by God to be... Bold and very courageous .
Never unbelieving, never fearful, never self excusing..

I mean you're not wrong but in context of this thread you're not really making a constructive counter argument.

God did/does give his children all power and authority in Jesus name. But no where does scripture say that "all power and authority" means every John and Jill who follows will cast out demons, see limbs restored etc.

You are making a very daft assumption that anyone who says "I can't or I haven't" performed miracles with my hands is scared or faithless. Some of God's greatest miracles are the lives that get changed through the example a faithful Christian provides an unbeliever.

Because truth is, not everyonr who has a demon cast out will follow Christ. Nor will everyone who is healed. Power miracles do little to add to the Kingdom. They have there place and I'm not discounting that. But to say every believer must do these things is just as wrong as saying no believer can (cessasionism).
 
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Alithis

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You're entitled to your view and false judgement of me.
havnt made a judgment. Just repeated an observation iv noted before.
In almost every case you do not encourage faith in the power of God.
You just make it an us and them fight.
It doesn't agree with scripture at all.

Jesus said Go do it in his name.
I agree.. Go do it .and we learn from doing so.
If we dont Do as he said we are not doers of the word.

.
 
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Alithis

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I mean you're not wrong but in context of this thread you're not really making a constructive counter argument.

God did/does give his children all power and authority in Jesus name. But no where does scripture say that "all power and authority" means every John and Jill who follows will cast out demons, see limbs restored etc.

You are making a very daft assumption that anyone who says "I can't or I haven't" performed miracles with my hands is scared or faithless. Some of God's greatest miracles are the lives that get changed through the example a faithful Christian provides an unbeliever.

Because truth is, not everyonr who has a demon cast out will follow Christ. Nor will everyone who is healed. Power miracles do little to add to the Kingdom. They have there place and I'm not discounting that. But to say every believer must do these things is just as wrong as saying no believer can (cessasionism).
:) no ones said every believe must
Its an emotionally charged assumption added in by another.
But...
If one " believes" and does not doubt in their heart.....
Hmm yes what becomes possible ? All things.
So belief is directly linked to the outworking of the power of God validating the believers obedience.
And unbelief is directly linked to a lack of Validation .
Remember... Believing means believing. not building opinion based theologies to justify unbelief.
And in all honesty what Other reason is there for not stepping out to obey but fear which is caused by a lack of belief.And has been over the years reinforced by false teachings formulated by Others who are still in self denial about thier lack of sincere belief and reseulting faith.

There is no judgment in saying this nor condemnation. It is just a state of honesty and realness we must reach in our relationship with God .once we get brutally honest with ourselves then we get humbeld and get to draw closer to God and increase in love for him.
And perfect love casts out 1st fear of his judgment and 2nd fear of failure.
Then we can step out in fearless love and trust and make the attempt to docwhat he tells us to do ,for no other reason but that we love him ,so we believe him and we take action accordingly.

I say there is no condemnation in saying this because we see none from Jesus when he told the man ... "If you believe, all things are possible" .To which the man responded with open honesty... Saying "Lord, i believe, help thou my Unbelief... "
And the lord so valued that truthfulness of heart he immediately did exactly that and meet him fully in that need.

You see the lord said we are to worship God in spirit and in truth..
Ww must never seek to theologically justify our short falls.
But rather confess them and be forgiven and cleansed from all righteousness...
Doubt and unbelief are unrighteousness .and we need them purged from us.And God is more willing to do that in us then we are to humble ourselves and Ask him.
And that cannot occur untill we confess they are there.
And to do so we can NOT afford any self justifying of them. Because to self justify our unbelief in any form is to say that God is unfaithful to his word and that, is impossible.
God has never ever and can never change.

He is always the same
 
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mourningdove~

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The point of my question is to really examine if Charismatic groups are/can be a bit elitist and actually cause congregants to display false signs. You know, pressure them so greatly into "if you don't display you aren't one of us" that they fake tongues, or fake a healing, etc. ...

Yes. I do believe some 'Charismatic' groups ... persons ... can become quite 'puffed up' over the subject of 'manifestations' ... 'elitist', as you said.

We wouldn't have this problem, if persons would remember ... in no matter how God chooses to use them ... that 'its all about God', and not us.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

 
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lismore

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Let me be of assistance.

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

What’s the power for?


To be witnesses.

I agree with you.

I believe that the empowerment of the Holy Spirit does the following- boldness to witness and to speak the word of God boldly and wisely- a word in season. Comfort and Fellowship for our Spirits in a hostile world. Empowerment for sanctification, for Holy, Godly, living and to make us more Christ-like. Leading us into all truth in a truth-hating world. Giving us the courage to stand firm in the Faith, even if we're standing alone. Enabling us to glorify God with our lives and our witness.

What I do not believe is the Holy Spirit- speakers making stuff up that contradicts the word of God. Attention seekers manifesting in ways that glorify only themselves, not of the Spirit. Rich people asking poor people for money. The Holy Spirit does not glorify carnal desires. The Holy Spirit does not lead people away from the truth of the gospel. The Holy Spirit does not provide miracles to ministries that are preaching deception.

Jesus said in Matthew 7:15 to watch out for false prophets who come in sheep's clothing but really are ravenous wolves. I can remember about 10 years ago many in this forum were going on about a character called 'Todd Bentley' who they said was an Apostle/ prophet because he claimed a lot of signs/hype. Others said he was a false prophet- he said he had a financial angel called Emma, kicked an old lady in the face to 'give her the Holy Spirit' and baptised people in the 'name of the sheki boomba'. He was later revealed when he left his disabled wife and children and ran off with the babysitter. Alleged 'Signs' or 'manifestations' are not proof of anything. There are false prophets out there!

God Bless :)
 
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Alithis

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So if a person isnt manifesting signs, they dont believe?

Which I suppose adds a new question, what signs? In the scripture being referenced, a person should be able to take a snake bite and live. So should we take on the snake Pentecostal doctrine?
The question to define ..what do we mean by " manifestations" is a good question.

Dont ruin it by lowring it into taking up snakes. We All know the words mean ..if you get bit but you believe..then you wont die....
And Do Not mean we are to go a purposly get snake bites.
 
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hislegacy

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But if a person who claims to be Christian never once sees a manifestation of God "a gift of the Spirit", are they indeed Christian?

Question: If a person is Born Again and Spirit filled (because of the forum we are in), and they are part of the Great Commission, they are not just armchair Christians, but sharing the Gospel with the lost. Why would they NOT manifest the Gifts?

Paul said to the Corinthians:

And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
Is our faith in human wisdom or the power of God?
 
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Gideons300

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So a lot is made about fruit bearing, and giving evidence. I am sure I know how this will turn out, but really just curious for discussion sake. And as a "re-introduction" to the forum, I've been AFK for a bit:

Does a person that follows Charismatic teachings and agrees doctrinally with their respective group need to manifest signs or gifts? Tongues, Healings, Discernment of Spirits, etc.

The point of my question is to really examine if Charismatic groups are/can be a bit elitist and actually cause congregants to display false signs. You know, pressure them so greatly into "if you don't display you aren't one of us" that they fake tongues, or fake a healing, etc.

Then the followup is that the Christlike behavior we are to portray?
Hello brother. Is it just me, or have many charismatic churches seemed to downplay gifts in services? There is a battle for members (tithers) and many of the more mainstream denominations are offering 'contemporary' worship services to attract the younger set who like more modern worship music complete with raising of hands.

And on the charismatic side of things, many have downplayed the gifts but have kept the worship music and raising of hands, lol. It is getting to the point that unless someone speaks in tongues, you really cannot tell the difference.

Then the big read flag, fruit. Do the charismatic churches display on average more than the mainstream ones that have modernized their services? I am not sure, but the fact that there is even a question should be a red flag to us about the health of the charismatic church.

Jesus told us that we will know them by their fruits. We can use gifts or signs as our measuring stick, but the true test is whether or not what we believe and profess as the truth is producing fruits and generating Christ-like natures in the lives of believers.

Blessings,

Gids
 
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.as jesus did..
How did he care for the sick ..he healed them
How did he feed the 5000 ? He provided supernaterally...
Since when we are in him and he in us it is no longer i that live but Christ that lives in me .then to expect the power of God is unquestionable. God is never apart from his power.
To think in any other mindset is just an unbelieving mindset. Change your mind and agree with God.Expect God to be God
Just as there are genuine believers mixed in with hypocrites in every church, the Charismatic churches are no different. The difference between a genuine Spirit-filled believer and a hypocrite is in the heart where only God can see. This is because either can appear exactly the same in the way they conduct themselves, talk the talk, do church activities, use the gifts of the Spirit, including prophecy and tongues. To all outward appearances they are exactly the same - to the degree that in many cases, those whom we think are the most spiritual are hypocrites in God's sight, and those whom we think are not right with God are absolutely true in their hearts before Him.

There are only two people who know whether a believer is genuine or a hypocrite. The person him or herself, and God. Therefore a person who fakes prophecy or tongues, knows it him or herself, because it is all in the inner motive. The genuine believer prophesies and prays in tongues because of a true heart of love and grace before God. The hypocrite prophesies and prays in tongues to appear spiritual in front of others.

This is why prophecy has to be judged, because we don't know the state of the heart in the person who gives the prophecy. We can hear a prophecy that sounds to all intents to be absolutely right and accurate and yet we can have a small check in our spirit concerning it. That small check is a warning that things are not as they should be in the Spirit.

The hypocrite will display his gifts, especially tongues in public before the onlookers, but never prays privately, and when he gets home with his wife and children, he puts off his spirituality and becomes just another worldly person. A genuine believer will be the same at church as he is at home. The best people to gauge the genuineness of a person's faith will be those closest to him. A wife is the best judge in this. And maybe this is why some children of professing believers depart from the church and from Christ because they see the hypocrisy in their parents - who are angels at church and devils at home.

As far as the Charismatic church goes, if we got the news that there were to be no more miracles, supernatural, healing, tongues, prophecy, etc., how many would stay with the church and how many would leave; like those who crowded around Jesus for the free lunches and healing, but when He challenged them to identify with His death and for them to take up their cross and follow Him, most of them departed from Him?
 
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lismore

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One question I would ask fellow Spirit-Filled believers.

We have the Word of God. God's Word is flawless, the prophecies in them are one hundred per cent reliable and trustworthy.

Why do Spirit-Filled believers often get carried away by the prophecies and writings of various speakers? Even if what these speakers say is 50%, 75% or 90% true, it comes a poor second to the Holy Word of God which we can count on 100%.

In my time in the AOG I received two false words of knowledge that I can recall. A friend visited an AOG church and a woman called him out and gave him a word about him cheating on his wife. He wasn't even married!

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, the churches seem to be obsessed with making stuff up.

Why?

Even if what these characters say is 99% correct, we have the Word of God which is 100% correct! They lose. It doesn't make any sense.

Peter said at Pentecost:

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord (Acts 3:19).

How can a gospel without repentance be preached and speakers claim it's blessed by the power of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will come when there is repentance in the church, repentance from sin and all the chicanery that goes on. The chicanery does not bring the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will come when we repent from it.

God Bless :)
 
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