What was Gods first thought?

rnmomof7 said:

There is no first anything with God.. He is eternal, having no beginning and no end.. So there is no first thought or last thought

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I think people get confused in thinking the beginning of us was related to the beginning of God. We were not His beginning. We and our universe which He is outside of, came later.

The Righterzpen said:

A lot of people have that interpratation. The problem is though that if you go by "wisdom" described in proverbs as a "created" entity; the only conclusion one could come to is that it's Jesus Christ; because He is the only person of the God Head that has a created dimension to His being.

I would agree with @David Cabrera on this one. Wisdom is Jesus.

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I don't see that passage as a created entity in the same way Adam did not create Eve from his rib.

Since wisdom was taken out of God, the Holy Spirit is also God.

Since you need breath before you can speak, (i.e. the word, the voice) wisdom would fit the picture here.

Michael Collum said:

I don't see that passage as a created entity in the same way Adam did not create Eve from his rib.

Since wisdom was taken out of God, the Holy Spirit is also God.

Since you need breath before you can speak, (i.e. the word, the voice) wisdom would fit the picture here.

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Well, let's take a closer look at that passage:

Proverbs 8:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it (her - 3rd person feminine singular).

12 I (1st person common singular) wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14 Counsel is mine (1st person common singular), and sound wisdom (feminine singular): I (1st person common singular) am understanding (feminine singular); I (1st person common singular) have strength (feminine singular).

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Analysis:

First thing I noticed is that "wisdom" is in the feminine. Which would be a weird rendering for a personification of God, because God is never portrayed in the feminine. (Which would include Jesus or the Holy Ghost.)

Verse 4 - "the speaker" switches from 3rd person feminine to 1st person common. (interesting). The "gender" of the voice remains "common" through the rest of the proverb except for the end of verse 11 and parts of verse 14.

Verse 22 - I think is where the "created" concept came from; although King James renders it as "possessed". (It can also be translated "created".) The idea behind this verb is that what ever is described as an "entity" (be it a concept or a tangible created thing) that has its origins coming forth from God.

Other passages say the Spirit is "sent" by (Son or Father) but the Spirit being a person of the Godhead is not created. He is an eternally existent entity. So "wisdom" here isn't a personification of the Holy Spirit either.

Is it Jesus?

At first glance that's what I had originally concluded because of the concept of "created"; yet the eternally existent Son did not have His origins coming forth from God either because just like the Holy Ghost, He is also an eternally existent entity.

Now Jesus's human nature had an origin. His humanity had a point where it was created. Yet the fact that this passage starts out portraying "wisdom" in the feminine doesn't fit either.

Yet we still have to reconcile that in places like verse 6-8, verse 10, verse 14, 17, 20 - 21, 34-35; we have the personification of some entity that is proclaiming wisdom. Now obviously the living entity that ultimately proclaims "wisdom" is Christ. Yet to say this "wisdom" is the personification of Him; I still don't think is "spot on".

It would be fair to say that Jesus is the personification of "wisdom" but "wisdom" is not the personification of Jesus because "wisdom" being an attribute of God is a "smaller" identity than Christ who is the wholeness of God. Hold that thought though because I think some of these other verses answer that question.

Verses explain themselves:

Verse 23 - This verse is interesting because it speaks of the "origin" of "wisdom". It states: "From eternity I have been poured out, from the summit (the head) before there was ever an earth."

So, if God's primary "substance" is described as "love"; it seems this passage is saying that the primary attribute coming forth from that love is wisdom. And this is why "wisdom" is "poured forth" of God.

Verse 14 - The phrase "I am understanding" is a little different rendering than the "me" "my" or "I (have strength)" in the rest of the verse. These other possessive pronouns are "standard generic". Only in this phrase "I am understanding" is the "I" of a form that "I" is emphasized. "I myself (am) understanding." This is not the "I AM" that we see in Exodus. Totally different Hebrew word.

Now for curiosity's sake, I looked up all the passages that couple "wisdom" and "understanding". (There's about 53 of them.) In several of these passages, "wisdom" seems to be something obtained with the mind and "understanding" of the heart.

Proverbs 14:33 says that wisdom rests in the heart of him who has understanding.
Proverbs 7:4 also speak of wisdom and understanding in female terms.

Now here's an interesting passage: (Isaiah 11)

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

"Spirit of the Lord", "spirit of wisdom and understanding", "spirit of counsel and might", "spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord". Again, seems to be attributes coming forth from God.

Another interesting passage: (1 Corinthians 1)

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

This comes from Obadiah:

7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

8 Shall I not in that day, saith the Lord, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

And Finally! (Let's attempt to wrap our brains around this one - LOL)

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So @Michael Collum - If you've now come to the conclusion that this runs deeper than any of us had previously hypothesized - I would conclude you to be correct!

The Righterzpen said:

Well, let's take a closer look at that passage:

Proverbs 8:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4 Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5 O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6 Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7 For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8 All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10 Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11 For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it (her - 3rd person feminine singular).

12 I (1st person common singular) wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14 Counsel is mine (1st person common singular), and sound wisdom (feminine singular): I (1st person common singular) am understanding (feminine singular); I (1st person common singular) have strength (feminine singular).

15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16 By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18 Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35 For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the Lord.

36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Analysis:

First thing I noticed is that "wisdom" is in the feminine. Which would be a weird rendering for a personification of God, because God is never portrayed in the feminine. (Which would include Jesus or the Holy Ghost.)

Verse 4 - "the speaker" switches from 3rd person feminine to 1st person common. (interesting). The "gender" of the voice remains "common" through the rest of the proverb except for the end of verse 11 and parts of verse 14.

Verse 22 - I think is where the "created" concept came from; although King James renders it as "possessed". (It can also be translated "created".) The idea behind this verb is that what ever is described as an "entity" (be it a concept or a tangible created thing) that has its origins coming forth from God.

Other passages say the Spirit is "sent" by (Son or Father) but the Spirit being a person of the Godhead is not created. He is an eternally existent entity. So "wisdom" here isn't a personification of the Holy Spirit either.

Is it Jesus?

At first glance that's what I had originally concluded because of the concept of "created"; yet the eternally existent Son did not have His origins coming forth from God either because just like the Holy Ghost, He is also an eternally existent entity.

Now Jesus's human nature had an origin. His humanity had a point where it was created. Yet the fact that this passage starts out portraying "wisdom" in the feminine doesn't fit either.

Yet we still have to reconcile that in places like verse 6-8, verse 10, verse 14, 17, 20 - 21, 34-35; we have the personification of some entity that is proclaiming wisdom. Now obviously the living entity that ultimately proclaims "wisdom" is Christ. Yet to say this "wisdom" is the personification of Him; I still don't think is "spot on".

It would be fair to say that Jesus is the personification of "wisdom" but "wisdom" is not the personification of Jesus because "wisdom" being an attribute of God is a "smaller" identity than Christ who is the wholeness of God. Hold that thought though because I think some of these other verses answer that question.

Verses explain themselves:

Verse 23 - This verse is interesting because it speaks of the "origin" of "wisdom". It states: "From eternity I have been poured out, from the summit (the head) before there was ever an earth."

So, if God's primary "substance" is described as "love"; it seems this passage is saying that the primary attribute coming forth from that love is wisdom. And this is why "wisdom" is "poured forth" of God.

Verse 14 - The phrase "I am understanding" is a little different rendering than the "me" "my" or "I (have strength)" in the rest of the verse. These other possessive pronouns are "standard generic". Only in this phrase "I am understanding" is the "I" of a form that "I" is emphasized. "I myself (am) understanding." This is not the "I AM" that we see in Exodus. Totally different Hebrew word.

Now for curiosity's sake, I looked up all the passages that couple "wisdom" and "understanding". (There's about 53 of them.) In several of these passages, "wisdom" seems to be something obtained with the mind and "understanding" of the heart.

Proverbs 14:33 says that wisdom rests in the heart of him who has understanding.
Proverbs 7:4 also speak of wisdom and understanding in female terms.

Now here's an interesting passage: (Isaiah 11)

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

"Spirit of the Lord", "spirit of wisdom and understanding", "spirit of counsel and might", "spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord". Again, seems to be attributes coming forth from God.

Another interesting passage: (1 Corinthians 1)

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

This comes from Obadiah:

7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

8 Shall I not in that day, saith the Lord, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

And Finally! (Let's attempt to wrap our brains around this one - LOL)

Revelation 13:18
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So @Michael Collum - If you've now come to the conclusion that this runs deeper than any of us had previously hypothesized - I would conclude you to be correct!

Click to expand...

I find the idea of it being a created entity incorrect, though I am familiar that it is a popular position.

Even if Wisdom was Jesus, He self Identified as "before Abraham was, I am - so not created.

The main reason I associate Wisdom as the Holy Spirit is because of the "made in His image and likeness" parallel. It is the result of living in the question, where did Eve's unique image and likeness come from within God? Even with the same questions, each person has their own answer.

The wisdom of God always was, but until He used it, it was not brought forth. As it is written, He spoke of things that were not as though they were - and thus created everything.

Michael Collum said:

I find the idea of it being a created entity incorrect, though I am familiar that it is a popular position.

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You didn't actually read what I wrote did you; because I agree with you here.

Michael Collum said:

Even if Wisdom was Jesus, He self Identified as "before Abraham was, I am - so not created.

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So, I hope you go back and read the post because I actually agree with you here too.

The Righterzpen said:

You didn't actually read what I wrote did you; because I agree with you here.



So, I hope you go back and read the post because I actually agree with you here too.

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I read it, but wasn't sure if you agreed with me or disagreed with me. Thanks for clarifying.

But yeah, verse 22 doesn't mean created. The description of Wisdom in Proverbs Chapter 8 can only be God.

That being said, I wouldn't think of the Holy Spirit as less than Jesus. However, in terms of being a smaller personality, in the book the shack .. the person Sophia was in a cave hid away and the trinity was separate from wisdom, an interesting solution.

Michael Collum said:

But yeah, verse 22 doesn't mean created. The description of Wisdom in Proverbs Chapter 8 can only be God.

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I think more specifically it's speaking of wisdom as being an attribute of God.

Michael Collum said:

That being said, I wouldn't think of the Holy Spirit as less than Jesus. However, in terms of being a smaller personality, in the book the shack .. the person Sophia was in a cave hid away and the trinity was separate from wisdom, an interesting solution.

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LOL - you can't get your theology from the book "the Shack".

I also agree with you here that the Holy Ghost is not a "lessor personality" then Jesus. He's a personality with a different task. And I suppose you could say that "wisdom" is separate from the Trinity in the same sense as the creation is separate from God.

The Righterzpen said:

He's a personality with a different task.

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Jews translate it as guiding wind. In the case of Christians, Jesus gave us the Gospel of the Kingdom and sent the HS to help guide us in the Kingdom's ways, ways contrary to the ways of man.

timothyu said:

Jews translate it as guiding wind. In the case of Christians, Jesus gave us the Gospel of the Kingdom and sent the HS to help guide us in the Kingdom's ways, ways contrary to the ways of man.

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The Holy Sprit doesn't "guide" believers; He indwells them. He is permanently cleaved to their personhood and that came about at Pentecost as a result of the atonement now having been established in linear time.

He is the "down payment" of the redemption promise to be completed upon Judgement day when the body is raised incorruptible and those still alive are transformed. To use another analogy; He is the consummating agent of Christ's union to His bride.

Prior to Pentecost, the Holy Ghost did not permanently indwell Old Testament believers. He would come upon them for what ever task they were assigned at the time and "leave" again once the task was complete. If the "task" was to be a prophet or king or something of that nature, than yes, I think it would be fair to label Him as a "guiding wind".

Now of course the disadvantage the Old Testament believer had is they were likely hardly ever assured of their redemption; because the power given by the indwelling Spirit to aide them in not only "guiding in a task" but to overcome their sin, was not a permanent fixture in their soul.

The Righterzpen said:

I think more specifically it's speaking of wisdom as being an attribute of God.



LOL - you can't get your theology from the book "the Shack".

I also agree with you here that the Holy Ghost is not a "lessor personality" then Jesus. He's a personality with a different task. And I suppose you could say that "wisdom" is separate from the Trinity in the same sense as the creation is separate from God.

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I think that's why I wasn't sure if you agreed or disagreed. We agreed on one point and disagreed on another. I still perceive wisdom to be the Holy Spirit.

Also
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Cement said:

In the Beginning God created.

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The word Beginning means the Son of God. If we study the Hebrew Letters that make up this word we see that in the beginning the Son of God was given as a grain offering so that Heaven and Earth could be reconciled and become one. These letters have multiple meaning and this is one of them. We are told to pray Thy Kingdom come, They Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. John 1:3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. " God spoke creation into being using the Hebrew language and HE did His work through Jesus.

joshua 1 9 said:

The word Beginning means the Son of God

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Which dictionary gave you that idea?

SPF said:

Which dictionary gave you that idea?

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This is from the study of the Hebrew language and the meaning of the Hebrew letters. There is quite a bit of teaching on YouTube.

joshua 1 9 said:

This is from the study of the Hebrew language and the meaning of the Hebrew letters. There is quite a bit of teaching on YouTube.

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Hmmm, if you like I can recommend some actual credible resources for you.

SPF said:

Hmmm, if you like I can recommend some actual credible resources for you.

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Credible in what way? I do not like that the Rabbi's feel justified to add to what Moses teaches. Jesus tells us: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, burdensome loads and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them." Matthew 23:2 They defend themselves because they believe they are to make a clear distinction to what Moses teachers and what they add to that.

God created all by His pre-existing WILL!

Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

We don't know how long God waited before He created our universe. The spiritual world existed long before ours, since the angels rejoiced to see the universe being created.

However, God would have known the creation of our material universe would eventually result in war in heaven, since Lucifer rebelled with the creation of man. Till then he was apparently prepared to accept the order of things, but for some reason our existence riled him, and the rest is history.

Whatever God was thinking when He created our universe, He also fore-knew the effect it would have on the heavenly realm, but He persisted anyway. He may have brooded over the consequences for a long time before doing anything, but once He made up His mind, He acted regardless of the result.

The difference is that in the spiritual world, God is directly visible in a sense He is not in our world, which is why Hell is for demons, as they hate the sight of God, and seek to hide from Him in the deepest darkness they can find, or perhaps make. Yet it is a also a place of punishment, hideous beyond belief.

But at the same time, for God to actually identify with His creatures, it seems He required a world where faith was the rule. And in that world, He inserted Himself in the form of His Son.

He did not become one of the angels. He became one of us.

So if you can figure out why God predetermined from all eternity to become a supernaturally fertilised ova in the womb of an unmarried teenage girl with a suspicious older fiance in some backwoods village in an occupied country in a small planet in one arm of one galaxy out of billions of galaxies in a universe which adds up to nothing ("sum zero energy" universe), by all accounts do let me know.

Bob Crowley said:

We don't know how long God waited before He created our universe.

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Well, no, we do.

There are only three options:

1. God is outside time, and He created time itself.

2. God is within time, and Himself had a beginning (this is heresy).

3. God is within time, and waited an infinite amount of time before creating the universe (this is logically impossible).

Seeing it all from before even making it, maybe His first thought was "Should I really do this...?"

God Bless!