Status
Not open for further replies.

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Don't you think there was respect in the New Testament?

In civil society in western countries, it used to be customary to use basic titles whether or not you personally believed in that person's religion. Whether the Pope or the Dalai Lama was being interviewed, it didn't matter.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: charsan
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Either a bishop, Patriarch, Pope, Ecumenical Patriarch. How would you greet that person? With a kiss, reverence?
If the bishop is a humble down to earth guy who introduces himself to me by his first name I would be glad to greet him on the same basis.

If he is one of those who is full of his self-importance and wants a more formal greeting, I wouldn't bother. I would stand back and allow the other acre kissers defer to him with reverence and kiss his ring.
 
Upvote 0

High Fidelity

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 9, 2014
24,258
10,276
✟896,801.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Like any other person. If they're Catholic, then I'd probably have a few uncomfortable questions for them regarding the cover up of so many pedophiles.

Reverence is earned and I'm certainly not kissing someone's hand because it's expected. I don't know them beyond their title and if we've learnt anything from history it's that the title means diddlysquat when it comes to respect, much less reverence.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Like any other person. If they're Catholic, then I'd probably have a few uncomfortable questions for them regarding the cover up of so many pedophiles.

Reverence is earned and I'm certainly not kissing someone's hand because it's expected. I don't know them beyond their title and if we've learnt anything from history it's that the title means diddlysquat when it comes to respect, much less reverence.

Kissing somebody's hand is generally not expected unless you actually belong to that religion. But using appropriate titles is customary, and is just a matter of civility.

"Reverend" works in most circumstances in English-speaking countries to refer to Christian clergy in general, regardless of denomination.

It is also an appropriate title for some other religions' clergy, such as Buddhism: for instance, the late Rev. Dr. Alfred Bloom was a minister in the Buddhist Churches of America, and also a professor of Buddhist studies at Berkeley. And the Rev. Joan Halifax is a Zen master in San Francisco.

At one time, Reformed rabbi's also went by "reverend", but that usage has fallen out of favor in recent years.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,024
3,750
✟287,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Reading through the comments of our Protestant friends sort of irked me that they would treat Bishops as any other, but then I'm reminded that depending on the Church or the particular Bishop I run into that I might not give them an accustomed greeting. I would never kiss the hand of a female pastor for instance or refer to them as a Priest or someone who does and celebrates things contrary to the gospel. I wouldn't go out of my way to display this, but if pressed I could not in good conscience acknowledge their supposed position.

So I can understand that protestant attitude somewhat. Especially if one views the whole system of Bishops and Priests as invalid or unbiblical. So I will explain why I would give all due respect to my own Bishop or Bishops of any Orthodox Church. I would do it, not because they are special but because they are the leader of the Church God has appointed for us. They handle the administration, they handle the Eucharist and unless they have been seriously compromised or involved in serious corruption, I see nothing harmful in kissing their hand, asking for their blessing or genuflecting to them. They have invested their lives in being spiritual leaders guides of the congregation which to me requires some recognition.

I'm also not opposed to those secular honors we pay our higher ups, be that Queens, Kings, Dignitaries, Priministers or Presidents. It just strikes me as proper.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Shane R
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,110
19,005
43
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,473,143.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think affording someone the courtesy of a title recognises their role in their own community of faith; it doesn't necessarily imply that one accepts the validity of that community or all of its beliefs or practices.

To me, it's common courtesy to use someone's title, but physical gestures of reverence (genuflection or hand kissing etc) aren't something I normally do for anyone, and I'd have to feel I had a reason to do that which went beyond common courtesy. That does feel like it's entered the "I'm identifying with and adopting the practices of this community" space.

As an aside, when it comes to my own title I find it most useful when dealing with people outside the church, who might need a clue as to who I am or the role I play, when interacting with them on behalf of the church. So it's helpful in an email signature, less so in personal interaction. I'd never insist that someone call me by the title, but the kind of let-me-make-a-point-of-not-acknowledging-you game is just rude.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Shane R

Priest
Supporter
Jan 18, 2012
2,276
1,097
Southeast Ohio
✟535,741.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Widowed
I think I carried over some of my military experience into the way I view the bishop and the customs of the church. About half of the clergy in my diocese are old veterans of the US Military (with the majority being old sailors like myself). After spending five years conforming to a set of antiquated rules mostly carried over from a bygone era in the Royal Navy, it doesn't seem that ridiculous to me to genuflect to the Bishop and kiss his ring. But, as a member of the clergy, I have also taken an oath to the laws, customs, and leadership of my church that sets me apart from the lay members and demands a different sort of conduct and obedience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

W2L

Well-Known Member
Jun 26, 2016
20,081
10,988
USA
✟213,573.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Reading through the comments of our Protestant friends sort of irked me that they would treat Bishops as any other, but then I'm reminded that depending on the Church or the particular Bishop I run into that I might not give them an accustomed greeting. I would never kiss the hand of a female pastor for instance or refer to them as a Priest or someone who does and celebrates things contrary to the gospel. I wouldn't go out of my way to display this, but if pressed I could not in good conscience acknowledge their supposed position.

So I can understand that protestant attitude somewhat. Especially if one views the whole system of Bishops and Priests as invalid or unbiblical. So I will explain why I would give all due respect to my own Bishop or Bishops of any Orthodox Church. I would do it, not because they are special but because they are the leader of the Church God has appointed for us. They handle the administration, they handle the Eucharist and unless they have been seriously compromised or involved in serious corruption, I see nothing harmful in kissing their hand, asking for their blessing or genuflecting to them. They have invested their lives in being spiritual leaders guides of the congregation which to me requires some recognition.

I'm also not opposed to those secular honors we pay our higher ups, be that Queens, Kings, Dignitaries, Priministers or Presidents. It just strikes me as proper.
Acts 10:26 But Peter pulled him up and said, “Stand up! I’m a human being just like you!”

1 Corinthians 3:5 After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. 6 I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. 7 It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
They are people just like us in the way that the governor of your state or the president of the university are "people just like us."

If you would greet them (or the head of your denomination) with a "Hi. How's it goin?," then it probably is understandable if you greet a bishop that way also. However, you can also appreciate why it is that some people think it may call for a bit more. How well you know that dignitary, what the event is, and what his own preferences may be do affect this, as you said.
Government office is not the same as church office. These are not apostles --nowhere near, yet even the apostles at the most (as far as I know) only had the title "apostle" to their name, and apparently rarely that in being addressed. I give denominations respect only so far as they hold to tenets that are near and dear to me, not because they are THE CHURCH, as opposed to some other denomination, and the denominational officials to me are no more than you or me.

I give certain people certain official respect due to the fact that they are in authority over me. Church officials are not. I report directly to God.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,005
5,622
68
Pennsylvania
✟780,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Don't you think there was respect in the New Testament?
I see in the NT, divine authority and submission to it --not honor in the sense of "this is a higher being". There were apostles and delegates. That is not how it is today. Nobody is in authority over me, but God.

As far as organization goes, sure, a pastor receives my acquiescence and support --even a certain sort of honor for his having undertaken a "double duty" (so to speak), of teaching God's word, and being himself responsible for every word he says. It is a burden and I honor him for that. But I call no one Reverend, unless it is a nickname.

I answer directly to God. (Having deeply desired to teach the Word, I found myself unable to well connect and communicate orally, so I have reverted to writing at best. So I suppose that is partly why I see others who do what I want to do as equals, but still.... For example, if I am going to do something they might consider as wrong, I don't stop because they are in my presence any more than I would stop because of any other Christians presence. If I let my tongue loose, I don't apologize to them, but to God.

There are no "men of God" today, who speak for God in the sense of the prophets or apostles.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,024
3,750
✟287,812.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Acts 10:26 But Peter pulled him up and said, “Stand up! I’m a human being just like you!”

1 Corinthians 3:5 After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. 6 I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. 7 It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow.

Oh please. We're not worshiping them as if they're gods.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

charsan

Charismatic Episcopal Church
Jul 12, 2019
2,297
2,115
52
South California
✟62,421.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In civil society in western countries, it used to be customary to use basic titles whether or not you personally believed in that person's religion. Whether the Pope or the Dalai Lama was being interviewed, it didn't matter.

Sadly, we are not that civil anymore
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.