Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Well ... that's not what I said ... I said Laws (1-10) meaning the 10 commandments, evidentially you didn't pick up on that.

The sacrificial/ceremonial laws were nailed to the cross, done away with.

And yes, Jesus became and is our High Priest in heaven, so that aspect was part of the ceremonial system and was no longer needed and THAT change occurred when the system was done away with at the cross.

The moral law the TEN COMMANDMENTS stand.

Also, no Sabbatarian Christian today actually can keep the Saturday Sabbath as it is given to us in the Torah (which was intended for Israel). It literally is not possible to obey the Sabbath as Israel had once obeyed the Sabbath. Here are the rules and regulations for you to follow if you were to obey the Sabbath the correct way:

1 "Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do:
2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”"
(Exodus 35:1-3).

Do you put to death anyone who does work on the Sabbath day?
Do you kindle no fire through out your fire dwellings on the Sabbath day?

Here is another rule that they followed on the Sabbath day.

9 "And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering." (Numbers 28:9-10).

Do you offer two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour as a meat offering mingled with oil, and a drink offering?

If not, you are not keeping the true Sabbath as Israel once did. Only they truly kept the Sabbath day and kept it's regulations at one time. Clearly if there was a change of the Sabbath day in the New Covenant (or New Testament), then we need new regulations in the NT saying that we need to keep the Sabbath day, but we do not need to prescribe to the other regulations that were normally attached with the weekly Sabbath.

Also, it was not just the weekly Sabbath, too. If you keep the Saturday Sabbath, you have to also keep all the other Sabbaths, too. If you obey the Old Law, you have to follow all of it. This was definitely the case for those who thought they had to be circumcised in the NT.

"For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." (Galatians 5:3).

eleos1954 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I know what you said. I simply disagree with it. The Sabbath is not a Moral Law. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law because you keep it on the basis of a ceremony or observance. A Moral Law is any law that is instinctual that nobody needs to tell you specifically in what to do as a part of doing good. There are other moral laws besides the 9 out of the 10 commandments. A moral law can be not committing certain other types of wrong sexual sins. Romans 2:14 says, "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves"; This is referring to the Moral Law that the Gentiles would sometimes obey without knowing about the written Law.

Definition of Moral Law:

"A general rule of right living especially: Such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason"

Source:
Definition of MORAL LAW

Funny, how no command on the Sabbath in the New Testament actually exists. If it is so important and unchanging, why didn't God repeat it? I will tell you why. It is because of Colossians 2. Colossians 2:16 says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths. You can ignore that verse until the cows come home or you can try to change what it says, but it is plain in what it says.

Colossians 2:16
This apostle's faithful observance of the weekly Sabbath stood in sharp contrast to his attitude towards the annual ceremonial sabbaths. He made it clear that Christians were under no obligation to keep these yearly rest days because Christ had nailed the ceremonial laws to the cross.

Said he, "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16, 17). Since "the context [of this passage] deals with ritual matters, the sabbaths here referred to are the ceremonial sabbaths of the Jewish annual festivals 'which are a shadow,' or type, of which the fulfillments were to come in Christ.

Why so many 7's in the book of Revelation: Why 7's, any other reason other than pointing to the 7th day Sabbath?

Significantly, the book of Revelation speaks of 7 churches (1:11), 7 golden candlesticks (1:12), 7 stars (1:16), 7 lamps of fire (4:5), 7 Spirits of God (4:5), 7 seals (5:1), 7 trumpets (8:2), 7 angels (15:1), and 7 last plagues (15:1) to be poured out on those who follow the beast whose number is 666. Rev. 13:18.

Thus the number “7” is God’s special number. Jesus Christ is represented as a “lamb … having seven horns and seven eyes” (Revelation 5:6), which reveals that the number “7” is Jesus Christ’s special number too, for it points to Him as the One who made heaven and earth in six days, and who rested on the seventh day. John 1:1-3; Ex. 20:11; Col. 1:16. Rev. 1:8,10,11; 22:12-14, 16 (KJV).

Isiah 56 - the 7th day Sabbath is for everyone

6And the foreigners (not just jews) who join themselves to the LORD
to minister to Him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to be His servants—
all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it
and who hold fast to My covenant—
7I will bring them to My holy mountain
and make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on My altar,
for My house will be called a house of prayer
for all the nations.”

Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His covenant of loving devotion for a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Psalms 89

Christian Standard Bible
I will not violate my covenant or change what my lips have said.

He (Jesus) spoke on mount
Sinai

Jesus is God and will not violate His covenants or change what He has said.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Colossians 2:16
This apostle's faithful observance of the weekly Sabbath stood in sharp contrast to his attitude towards the annual ceremonial sabbaths. He made it clear that Christians were under no obligation to keep these yearly rest days because Christ had nailed the ceremonial laws to the cross.

Said he, "Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Col. 2:16, 17). Since "the context [of this passage] deals with ritual matters, the sabbaths here referred to are the ceremonial sabbaths of the Jewish annual festivals 'which are a shadow,' or type, of which the fulfillments were to come in Christ.

No. Sabbaths would include the weekly Sabbath. But again, no Christian today keeps the Sabbath as Israel did.

You said:
Why so many 7's in the book of Revelation: Why 7's, any other reason other than pointing to the 7th day Sabbath?

7 means perfection or completion. The Saturday Sabbath was all about having a rest. But the true Sabbath is our rest in Christ.

Significantly, the book of Revelation speaks of 7 churches (1:11), 7 golden candlesticks (1:12), 7 stars (1:16), 7 lamps of fire (4:5), 7 Spirits of God (4:5), 7 seals (5:1), 7 trumpets (8:2), 7 angels (15:1), and 7 last plagues (15:1) to be poured out on those who follow the beast whose number is 666. Rev. 13:18.

Thus the number “7” is God’s special number. Jesus Christ is represented as a “lamb … having seven horns and seven eyes” (Revelation 5:6), which reveals that the number “7” is Jesus Christ’s special number too, for it points to Him as the One who made heaven and earth in six days, and who rested on the seventh day. John 1:1-3; Ex. 20:11; Col. 1:16. Rev. 1:8,10,11; 22:12-14, 16 (KJV).

Yes, I like biblical numerics, too. That does not prove your case, though. The number 7 does not exclusive refer to only the Sabbath.

If you want to see a cool study on the number 7, I would watch Mike Hoggard's video here:

While I do not agree with Mike on many other things, some of his videos on Biblical Numerics are amazing.

Isiah 56 - the 7th day Sabbath is for everyone

6And the foreigners (not just jews) who join themselves to the LORD
to minister to Him,
to love the name of the LORD,
and to be His servants—
all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it
and who hold fast to My covenant—
7I will bring them to My holy mountain
and make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and sacrifices
will be accepted on My altar,
for My house will be called a house of prayer
for all the nations.”

Still the Old Covenant.

You said:
Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who keeps His covenant of loving devotion for a thousand generations of those who love Him and keep His commandments.

Deuteronomy is referring to the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant (which began officially with Christ's death).

You said:
Psalms 89

Christian Standard Bible
I will not violate my covenant or change what my lips have said.

Then how do you explain the removal of the Levitical sacrificial system?

You said:
He (Jesus) spoke on mount
Sinai

Jesus is God and will not violate His covenants or change what He has said.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Nothing in John 1:18 says that God cannot change certain laws within a new covenant.

eleos1954 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Also, no Sabbatarian Christian today actually can keep the Saturday Sabbath as it is given to us in the Torah (which was intended for Israel). It literally is not possible to obey the Sabbath as Israel had once obeyed the Sabbath. Here are the rules and regulations for you to follow if you were to obey the Sabbath the correct way:

1 "Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said to them, “These are the words which the Lord has commanded you to do:
2 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”"
(Exodus 35:1-3).

Do you put to death anyone who does work on the Sabbath day?
Do you kindle no fire through out your fire dwellings on the Sabbath day?

Here is another rule that they followed on the Sabbath day.

9 "And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:
10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering." (Numbers 28:9-10).

Do you offer two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour as a meat offering mingled with oil, and a drink offering?

If not, you are not keeping the true Sabbath as Israel once did. Only they truly kept the Sabbath day and kept it's regulations at one time. Clearly if there was a change of the Sabbath day in the New Covenant (or New Testament), then we need new regulations in the NT saying that we need to keep the Sabbath day, but we do not need to prescribe to the other regulations that were normally attached with the weekly Sabbath.

Also, it was not just the weekly Sabbath, too. If you keep the Saturday Sabbath, you have to also keep all the other Sabbaths, too. If you obey the Old Law, you have to follow all of it. This was definitely the case for those who thought they had to be circumcised in the NT.

"For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." (Galatians 5:3).

You keep confusing the moral law (the 10) with the ceremonial laws.

2 sets of law

The ceremonial laws purpose was pointing the to Jesus as Messiah and the Him being the only way to salvation. The sanctuary system was put in place as a stark example of how salvation would come about through Jesus.

Though instituted by Jesus, the ceremonial system was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality-the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system-along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts-no longer was needed see Hebrews 9:9-12. We no longer keep the ceremonial law today however by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation.

Christians do separate the moral law and the ceremonial law (such as yourself).... except some carve out the 7th day Sabbath which is right in the heart (middle) of the moral law, which makes no logical, or biblical sense at all.

Matthew 5

18 (Jesus Speaking) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

not the smallest letter ... much less the 4th commandment in it's entirety.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome

Evidentially the 4th commandment is too burdensome for some I guess.

So be it.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

eleos1954 said:
You keep confusing the moral law (the 10) with the ceremonial laws.

2 sets of law

The ceremonial laws purpose was pointing the to Jesus as Messiah and the Him being the only way to salvation. The sanctuary system was put in place as a stark example of how salvation would come about through Jesus.

Though instituted by Jesus, the ceremonial system was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality-the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system-along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts-no longer was needed see Hebrews 9:9-12. We no longer keep the ceremonial law today however by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation.

Christians do separate the moral law and the ceremonial law (such as yourself).... except some carve out the 7th day Sabbath which is right in the heart (middle) of the moral law, which makes no logical, or biblical sense at all.

Matthew 5

18 (Jesus Speaking) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

not the smallest letter ... much less the 4th commandment in it's entirety.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome

Evidentially the 4th commandment is too burdensome for some I guess.

So be it.

The Sabbath is not a moral law because:

The Sabbath is not a moral law because the priests were allowed to profane it: Matthew 12:5; Numbers 28:9-10; Joshua 6:15; 1 Kings 20:29; John 5:10
The Sabbath is not a moral law because a man could break it without sin to save an animal from a pit.
The Sabbath is not a moral law because God never intended for all mankind to keep it: God NEVER charged the Gentiles with breaking it, much less even keeping it. Only the Jews were expected to keep it. Interesting that God charges the Gentiles many times for breaking all the 9 moral commandments on the tablets of stone, but NEVER ONCE says anything about breaking the Sabbath!
If the Sabbath is moral, then why did God grow weary of them keeping it? God never said he was weary of them NOT stealing or NOT committing adultery. But God did say he was could not endure their keeping the Sabbath: Isaiah 1:13-14 "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and Sabbath, the calling of assemblies- I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts. They have become a burden to Me." Such is never said of any moral command anywhere in the Bible! Think about it.

Conclusion:

God NEVER grows weary of men keeping moral laws.
God DID grow weary of men keeping the 4th commandment (Sabbath law)
Therefore the Sabbath is NOT a moral law!

Source:
The sabbath law was 100% ceremonial and not moral law

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

eleos1954 said:
You keep confusing the moral law (the 10) with the ceremonial laws.

2 sets of law

The ceremonial laws purpose was pointing the to Jesus as Messiah and the Him being the only way to salvation. The sanctuary system was put in place as a stark example of how salvation would come about through Jesus.

Though instituted by Jesus, the ceremonial system was meant to function only as a type, a symbol of a future reality-the coming of Jesus and His death and High Priestly ministry. Once He completed His work on earth, this old system-along with its sacrifices and rituals and feasts-no longer was needed see Hebrews 9:9-12. We no longer keep the ceremonial law today however by studying it we can garner insights into the plan of salvation.

Christians do separate the moral law and the ceremonial law (such as yourself).... except some carve out the 7th day Sabbath which is right in the heart (middle) of the moral law, which makes no logical, or biblical sense at all.

Matthew 5

18 (Jesus Speaking) For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

not the smallest letter ... much less the 4th commandment in it's entirety.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome

Evidentially the 4th commandment is too burdensome for some I guess.

So be it.

23 "If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:23-24).

Based on the above passage it appears that one could be circumcised (a form of work) on the Sabbath without the Law being broken.

Now let me ask you another question. Could an Israelite kill someone in order to circumcise his child? Could a Jew steal in order to circumcise his child? Could a priest covet in order to do his calling? No, never. These ceremonial laws were never seen as being above the moral law! Why, then, could they break the Sabbath law in favour of their ceremonial law? Why is it that they could not break 9 moral commands in the ten commandments or thousands of morals laws in the Bible for any reason, but the law about the Sabbath could be broken in favour of the ceremonial law? Think about it.

Source:
Sabbath is a ritual law, not moral

St_Worm2 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
It does not matter what I say. It is what the Bible says. The Bible teaches that only one sin can separate a person from God (including a believer) if they do not confess and forsake that sin.

Hi again Bible Highlighter, many believe different things when they read the very same words in the Bible (as I'm sure you know

). I was interested in knowing what you believe. Thank you for answering my question.

There are two other questions (far more important ones, actually) from an earlier reply to you that I'd still like to have you answer before we continue (btw, there's no reason for you to take up a lot of your time trying to explain "why" you believe what you do, unless you want to for some reason, because the only thing that I need to know for now is "what" you believe).

St_Worm2 said:
1. How do you define the Gospel/the Good News? IOW, what is the Good News, and what makes it "Good" news?

2. Conversely, what is the "bad news" (that the Good News seeks to remedy)?

Thanks

--David

Der Alte · Jul 13, 2019

Why I do not observe the seventh day Sabbath.

Leviticus 24:8 Every Sabbath day they are to be arranged in the LORD's presence, as a gift from the Israelis, an eternal covenant.
Exodus 31:16 The Israelis shall keep the Sabbath to make the Sabbath observance a perpetual covenant from generation to generation.

I am not an Israelite.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Hi again Bible Highlighter, many believe different things when they read the very same words in the Bible (as I'm sure you know ). I was interested in knowing what you believe. Thank you for answering my question.

There are two other questions (far more important ones, actually) from an earlier reply to you that I'd still like to have you answer before we continue (btw, there's no reason for you to take up a lot of your time trying to explain "why" you believe what you do, unless you want to for some reason, because the only thing that I need to know for now is "what" you believe).
Thanks

--David

I believe I gave a sufficient reply in my other subsequent posts.

Please also see post #59, and post #60, too.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

Der Alter said:
Why I do not observe the seventh day Sabbath.

Leviticus 24:8 Every Sabbath day they are to be arranged in the LORD's presence, as a gift from the Israelis, an eternal covenant.
Exodus 31:16 The Israelis shall keep the Sabbath to make the Sabbath observance a perpetual covenant from generation to generation.
I am not an Israelite.

Yes, I noticed this point, as well. (When reading various articles). But I forgot to mention it. Thank you.

St_Worm2 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe I gave a sufficient reply.

I also replied to your post in post #59, and post #60, too.

You never answered the questions that I asked you in post #52 (unless I missed them somehow), the same ones that I just asked you again in post #67 above. If you did, I'll need to have you point your answers out to me (and I apologize for the inconvenience if that's the case).

Thanks!

--David

eleos1954 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
23 "If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:23-24).

Based on the above passage it appears that one could be circumcised (a form of work) on the Sabbath without the Law being broken.

Now let me ask you another question. Could an Israelite kill someone in order to circumcise his child? Could a Jew steal in order to circumcise his child? Could a priest covet in order to do his calling? No, never. These ceremonial laws were never seen as being above the moral law! Why, then, could they break the Sabbath law in favour of their ceremonial law? Why is it that they could not break 9 moral commands in the ten commandments or thousands of morals laws in the Bible for any reason, but the law about the Sabbath could be broken in favour of the ceremonial law? Think about it.

Source:
Sabbath is a ritual law, not moral

***

"The Sabbath is not a moral law because the priests were allowed to profane it"

Matthew 12:5

The PRIESTS in the temple were allowed to profane (break) the Sabbath because they were required to conduct their priestly duties (do their priestly work) on the Sabbath.

"The Sabbath is not a moral law because God never intended for all mankind to keep it:"

Jesus disagrees with you

Mark 2:27

27Then Jesus declared, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

made for MAN (mankind) ... not just Jews

Isaiah 1:13-14 (read the whole chapter)

This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem

They were in total rebellion towards God ....

“I have raised children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against Me.

Therefore all they were doing was seen and deemed as worthless to the Lord because they were a bunch of hypocrites. A hypocrite preaches one thing, and does another and the Lord was discussed with their hypocrisy ... claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; therefore all they were doing (ceremonial acts) were totally meaningless to Him because of their hypocrisy.

#3

The Gentiles didn't need to be told to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath day was when people gathered in the synagog for formal teaching of scripture. That's when it happened ... on the Sabbath.

Regarding the Sabbath, Jesus led by example, the apostles led by example, others followed their example ... they didn't need to be told.

Acts 17:1 (NKJV) Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, Acts 17:3 explaining and demonstrating that the Messiah had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and [saying], "This Yahushua whom I preach to you is the Messiah." Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

Luke 4:16 (NKJV) So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Acts 13:42 (NKJV) So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 18:1 (NKJV) After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. Acts 18:2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. Acts 18:3 So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

There are more verses

John 7:23-24,

once again Jesus is pointing out their hypocrisy ...

Abraham was the first Jewish patriarch to practice circumcision. This symbolic ritual was meant to be a visible, permanent, external sign of the relationship between God and His people: the nation of Israel. Accordingly, a male child was to be circumcised on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). This command was repeated in the laws given under Moses (Leviticus 12:3). Of course, this meant that some baby boys had to be circumcised on a Sabbath day. Here, Jesus points out that the Pharisees see this as necessary to properly fulfill the law of Moses.

In context, Jesus is referring to the controversy caused when He healed a man on a Sabbath day (John 5:1–9). His point here is that of hypocrisy. If "breaking" the Sabbath to perform a minor ritual was acceptable, why did the Pharisees reject Jesus' healing of a man who'd been crippled for years? As stated in the next verse, the problem is that these religious leaders were being shallow and careless in their judgment.

Think about it.

Jesus is GOD ... He is our example in ALL things. He created the Sabbath blessed it and sanctified it, He kept the Sabbath (even in His death), He reminded us to keep it as part of moral law (the 10) on Sinai, and He is Lord of the Sabbath.

++
1 Peter 2:21-25

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
++

Think About It

Source: The Word of God - Follow the Lamb

Greengardener · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

"7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:7-11).

While Psalms 19:7-11 is referring to the Old Law, I believe that the basic principle of truth behind God's laws remains the same today for the New Covenant Laws, as well. if not, then what is the point of this passage in our Bibles? Yes, it is Old Covenant, and it is referring to the Old Law, but can we not apply this passage to our lives today with the Laws in the New Testament?

Is the Law of the Lord today (New Covenant Law) really perfect?
Can the New Covenant Law really convert the soul?
Can the commandment of the Lord (i.e. the commandment of the Lord from the New Testament) truly enlighten the eyes?

Can New Covenant Law truly warn us as servants?
Is there a great reward in keeping New Covenant Law?

Side Note:

I am also not denying that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that God's grace is where it starts and it is our ultimate source of salvation. For without Jesus, nobody could be saved and or have their past slate of sins wiped out. But what of God's laws for today under the New Testament? Do we ignore or minimize them because we got grace?

Greengardener · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Romans 7:14-24 appears to cast doubt on this position, but I believe Paul was attacking the false Pharisee religion that left out God's grace and made salvation all about Law alone under the Torah. So yes. The Law alone without God's grace cannot convert one's soul. Grace is where it starts always. But after grace, the commands of the Lord should play an integral part of our being saved by God's grace. For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Yes, and I would add that it appears that those in the Pharisee religion weren't keeping the intent of the Law, just fooling themselves and were play-acting. Jesus did a clear job of calling them out on it. They had substituted a checklist of external behaviors which effectively nullified obedience while giving them a false pride thinking that they were better than the others.

Psalm 19 which you quoted says God's laws/precepts/commandments/word/statutes can convert the soul, make wise the simple, are pure and bring light to the eyes, rejoice the heart, and endures forever. God, as Love, rejoices in lovingkindness, mercy, and justice. That looks like a formula for grace to me, so yes, it started with grace. Look at the example of David. David saw what God intended and he behaved according to those precepts. It always amazes me that God called David a man after His own heart quite in spite of some serious error, but David promptly repented of when confronted, it is apparent he understood his role in his transgression, and it doesn't appear he repeated the error. When you look at David's actions, warrior that he was, other than with that one incident, you see both mercy and judgement. Compared with Saul, it's all the more clear what understanding the precepts of God creates in the human response, and you can see that it worked righteousness clear down to David's heart, but Saul, like the Pharisees, tried to fool himself and God with no repentence. Even in his sin, David could appeal to God's grace even in the old testament times. God hasn't changed. Without holiness, no man will see Him.

Your love for these concepts is apparent. These Psalm 19 verses are a good song of encouragement.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2019

eleos1954 said:
***

"The Sabbath is not a moral law because the priests were allowed to profane it"

Matthew 12:5

The PRIESTS in the temple were allowed to profane (break) the Sabbath because they were required to conduct their priestly duties (do their priestly work) on the Sabbath.

"The Sabbath is not a moral law because God never intended for all mankind to keep it:"

Jesus disagrees with you

Mark 2:27

27Then Jesus declared, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

made for MAN (mankind) ... not just Jews

Isaiah 1:13-14 (read the whole chapter)

This is the vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem

They were in total rebellion towards God ....

“I have raised children and brought them up,
but they have rebelled against Me.

Therefore all they were doing was seen and deemed as worthless to the Lord because they were a bunch of hypocrites. A hypocrite preaches one thing, and does another and the Lord was discussed with their hypocrisy ... claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; therefore all they were doing (ceremonial acts) were totally meaningless to Him because of their hypocrisy.

#3

The Gentiles didn't need to be told to keep the Sabbath. The Sabbath day was when people gathered in the synagog for formal teaching of scripture. That's when it happened ... on the Sabbath.

Regarding the Sabbath, Jesus led by example, the apostles led by example, others followed their example ... they didn't need to be told.

Acts 17:1 (NKJV) Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, Acts 17:3 explaining and demonstrating that the Messiah had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and [saying], "This Yahushua whom I preach to you is the Messiah." Acts 17:4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

Luke 4:16 (NKJV) So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Acts 13:42 (NKJV) So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 18:1 (NKJV) After these things Paul departed from Athens and went to Corinth. Acts 18:2 And he found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla (because Claudius had commanded all the Jews to depart from Rome); and he came to them. Acts 18:3 So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

There are more verses

John 7:23-24,

once again Jesus is pointing out their hypocrisy ...

Abraham was the first Jewish patriarch to practice circumcision. This symbolic ritual was meant to be a visible, permanent, external sign of the relationship between God and His people: the nation of Israel. Accordingly, a male child was to be circumcised on the eighth day after birth (Genesis 17:12). This command was repeated in the laws given under Moses (Leviticus 12:3). Of course, this meant that some baby boys had to be circumcised on a Sabbath day. Here, Jesus points out that the Pharisees see this as necessary to properly fulfill the law of Moses.

In context, Jesus is referring to the controversy caused when He healed a man on a Sabbath day (John 5:1–9). His point here is that of hypocrisy. If "breaking" the Sabbath to perform a minor ritual was acceptable, why did the Pharisees reject Jesus' healing of a man who'd been crippled for years? As stated in the next verse, the problem is that these religious leaders were being shallow and careless in their judgment.

Think about it.

Jesus is GOD ... He is our example in ALL things. He created the Sabbath blessed it and sanctified it, He kept the Sabbath (even in His death), He reminded us to keep it as part of moral law (the 10) on Sinai, and He is Lord of the Sabbath.

++
1 Peter 2:21-25

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.
++

Think About It

Source: The Word of God - Follow the Lamb

I don’t think anything I say beyond this point with God's Word is going to help. My case so far with the Word should have been sufficient, but folks see what they want to see for their own reasons. Again, consider that there is no actual command given in the New Testament on the Sabbath. Not one command.

eleos1954 · Jul 13, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I don’t think anything I say beyond this point with God's Word is going to help. My case so far with the Word should have been sufficient, but folks see what they want to see for their own reasons. Again, consider that there is no actual command given in the New Testament on the Sabbath. Not one command.

"but folks see what they want to see for their own reasons"

"Again, consider that there is no actual command given in the New Testament on the Sabbath."

Jesus taught from the Old Testament and He lived in accordance to all the commandments within it ... because He's God and God does not change.

Remember the Sabbath ....

a reminder in the New Testament

Mark 2

27Then Jesus declared, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Malachi 3:6
6 "For I the LORD do not change;
Hebrews 13
New International Version
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jesus is God, who knows more about God than God?

1 Peter 2:21-25

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

Follow the Lamb who was, is and will always be our perfect example.

God Bless.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2019

eleos1954 said:
"but folks see what they want to see for their own reasons"

"Again, consider that there is no actual command given in the New Testament on the Sabbath."

Jesus taught from the Old Testament and He lived in accordance to all the commandments within it ... because He's God and God does not change.

Remember the Sabbath ....

a reminder in the New Testament

Mark 2

27Then Jesus declared, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28Therefore, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Malachi 3:6
6 "For I the LORD do not change;
Hebrews 13
New International Version
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jesus is God, who knows more about God than God?

1 Peter 2:21-25

21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps

1 John 2:6
Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

Follow the Lamb who was, is and will always be our perfect example.

God Bless.

So you would follow Jesus’s example in telling a person to reconcile with their brother before offering an animal sacrifice? That is what you must do if you believe the Old Law (the Sabbath) is still in effect.

eleos1954 · Jul 14, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
So you would follow Jesus’s example in telling a person to reconcile with their brother before offering an animal sacrifice? That is what you must do if you believe the Old Law (the Sabbath) is still in effect.

My friend .... you are not understanding two different sets of law ...

The moral law are the 10 (eternal) - the whole point of the ceremonial/sacrificial laws (system) were pointing to Jesus the Messiah to come and as the only way to salvation.

When Jesus was crucified the earthly ceremonial law/temple system was no longer needed (for the purpose pointing to Christ) because He appeared in the flesh in the form of a man. Yet many of the Jews did not recognize Him as the Messiah.

Jesus was the final sacrifice for all ... He became High Priest for all.

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Yet many of the Jews thought so they lost sight of or perhaps because of their pride were blinded with some of their interpretation of scripture.

Many got so caught up in the earthly system and their pride of themselves. In doing their "works" in the earthly system they did not see or lost sight of the heavenly one ... the REAL one.

and Jesus pointed out their error to them

John 5
39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

John 5

If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.

John 5

45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses (Mosaic ceremonial system Law), in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

And ... oddly enough that same fthing is going on today.

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands (earthly temple/sanctuary system), a mere copy of the true one (temple/sanctuary in heaven), but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Hebrews 9:11

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

Hebrews 8:2

a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Psalm 11:4

The LORD is in His holy temple; the LORD'S throne is in heaven; His eyes behold, His eyelids test the sons of men.

Revelation 11:19

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Revelation 7:15

"For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

Revelation 15:6

and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.

at least take a look at it

The Hebrew Sanctuary - The Illustrated Plan of Salvation

Lots more to share, but this post is long enough already ;o)

eleos1954 · Jul 14, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
So you would follow Jesus’s example in telling a person to reconcile with their brother before offering an animal sacrifice? That is what you must do if you believe the Old Law (the Sabbath) is still in effect.

My friend .... you are not understanding two different sets of law ...

The moral law is the 10 (eternal) - the ceremonial law, with the whole point of the ceremonial/sacrificial laws that were pointing to Jesus the Messiah to come as the only way to salvation.

When Jesus was crucified the ceremonial law system was no longer needed (for the purpose pointing to Christ) because He appeared in the flesh in the form of a man. Yet many of the Jews did not recognize Him as the Messiah.

Jesus was the final sacrifice for all ... He became High Priest for all.

Hebrews 10:11
Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Yet many of the Jews thought so they lost sight of the heavenly meaning of the sanctuary system .. in that ... by their works within that system would save them (understanding scripture).

John 5:39 (Jesus speaking)

39You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me, 40yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.

John 5

45Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses (mosaic sanctuary system) , in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me (the earthly sanctuary system pointing to Him). 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”

Many got so caught up in the earthly system (put their hope in the system) that by doing their "works" they did not see the true heavenly sanctuary that is in heaven ... the REAL one.

And ... oddly or maybe not so oddly enough this same thing is going on today .... people are not studying, seeing understanding the sanctuary in heaven.

At least check it out

The Hebrew Sanctuary - The Illustrated Plan of Salvation

Ecclesiastes 1:9

9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

Hebrews 9:24

For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Have a lot more to being forth ... but this post is long enough as is ;o)

God Bless.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 14, 2019

@eleos1954

I just started to notice. This is getting off topic. You are desiring to talk about whether or not the OT Saturday Sabbath command still applies today. The topic of this thread is about whether or not Psalms 19:7-11 can be applied to us today as Christians. I think we should stick to discussing the actual topic of the thread because we are not going to agree on the Sabbath, friend. If you want to promote or discuss how the OT Sabbath still applies today, then please start another thread. I do not want to interrupt the purpose of what this thread is really about.

Thank you.

Blessings to you in the Lord,

Sincerely,

~ J.

Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Simul Justus et Peccator

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Simul Justus et Peccator

God is Love

for love is of God

for love is of God

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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