The Water Gospel of the Campbellites

LoveofTruth · Jul 10, 2019

Albion said:
This is true, but here you are trying to say that the instructions given by Christ himself are wrong or something like that, NOT that the hearers misunderstood them. That is an important difference.

So that leaves us in the position of denying Holy Scripture itself simply because the Apostles might have done something else or thought something else (as they often had done before, I agree). I think we ought to know that this would be a mistake on our part.

I don’t read water baptism into Jesus words though. I see him speaking of a far deeper immersion into the name

Albion · Jul 10, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
I don’t read water baptism into Jesus words though. I see him speaking of a far deeper immersion into the name

Sure. All sorts of attempts have been made by one person or another to make Jesus’ words mean something other than they actually do. So that isn't unique in itself.

However, there is too much evidence in the Bible for it to be correct in this case. I already referred to some of that evidence.

By the way, there is no reason that you cannot believe whatever you choose to believe. That is not the issue here.

LoveofTruth · Jul 10, 2019

Albion said:
Sure. All sorts of attempts have been made by one person or another to make Jesus’ words mean something other than they actually do. So that isn't unique in itself.

However, there is too much evidence in the Bible for it to be correct in this case. I already referred to some of that evidence.

By the way, there is no reason that you cannot believe whatever you choose to believe. That is not the issue here.

If Jesus said water baptism that would be different. Jesus at times defined the kind of baptism he was speaking of as in Acts 1

Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

And

Matthew 20:22. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.”

There are many baptisms in scripture yet only one saving baptism. And that one baptism is not water as scripture shows.

misput · Jul 10, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
If Jesus said water baptism that would be different. Jesus at times defined the kind of baptism he was speaking of as in Acts 1

Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

And

Matthew 20:22. But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.”

There are many baptisms in scripture yet only one saving baptism. And that one baptism is not water as scripture shows.

Most charismatic denominations believe salvation and baptism must be accompanied by scenarios like we see in acts two, nineteen and the Cornelius family.

Albion · Jul 11, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
If Jesus said water baptism that would be different. Jesus at times defined the kind of baptism he was speaking of as in Acts 1

Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Here is the explanation. John had baptized in the manner that was common among the Jews before Jesus--as an act accompanying the persons repentance. Jesus was also baptized by him, but (as you said) referred to a new kind of baptism.

It is not new in form, but it imparts the Holy Spirit, which had not been the case and was not possible prior to the Saviors work on Earth. In short, the usual baptismal ceremony with water took on a new meaning.

In that respect, this is not a lot different from the other sacrament--the Lords Supper--which was instituted by Christ when he changed an already existing Jewish religious practice into something with a new meaning.

LoveofTruth · Jul 11, 2019

Albion said:
Here is the explanation. John had baptized in the manner that was common among the Jews before Jesus--as an act accompanying the persons repentance. Jesus was also baptized by him, but (as you said) referred to a new kind of baptism.

It is not new in form, but it imparts the Holy Spirit, which had not been the case and was not possible prior to the Saviors work on Earth. In short, the usual baptismal ceremony with water took on a new meaning.

In that respect, this is not a lot different from the other sacrament--the Lords Supper--which was instituted by Christ when he changed an already existing Jewish religious practice into something with a new meaning.

I don’t see it that way and when we read Acts 8 we see that they were water baptized then later the Apostles cane and they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. These were two separate events and different baptisms.

Acts 8:12. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women....14. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:15. Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16. (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)17. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.”

Albion · Jul 11, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
I don’t see it that way

Yes, I know that, but what Scripture has to say about the matter is what all of us who say we believe in the Bible as God's word should settle it, no?

and when we read Acts 8 we see that they were baptized then later the Apostles cane and they were baptized with the Holy Ghost. These were two separate events and different baptisms.

Exactly. We are speaking of two different things there. That being so, there is no basis for saying that the first one is not needed, simply because of how we understand the second one.

ebedmelech · Jul 12, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Not so...

Baptized into Christ is the saving baptism. Johns Old Testament water baptism was part of the old covenant John baptized (past tense) with water but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The early Jewish believers lingered in the old covenant for a while still going to the temple, still sacrificing animals still keeping the customs and law of Moses all through the book of Acts, read Acts 2, 15, and especially Acts 21. But the Gentiles (and the Jews) did not need to add any work of righteousness or of the law or old covenant to be saved. Paul said that Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel showing that water baptism was not part of the gospel for salvation.

Consider these verses

1 Corinthians 1:17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”

And then to the same Corinthians he defined what the gospel was here

1 Corinthians 15:1. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;2. By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.3. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4. And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

Notice that nothing was added to the gospel that saves or should be added. No water baptism, no mosaic law, no circumcision, no Lords supper, no works of righteousness etc.

And Paul also defined to the Corinthians what the “one baptism” was here

1 Corinthians 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

This baptism “into Christ” or “into Jesus Christ” is saving.

Galatians 3:27. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Notice this is “into Christ” not into water. No man or outward water can immerse us into Christ. Christ dwells in our hearts by faith.

Peter also defines the “saving baptism” and says,

1 Peter 3:21. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”

Notice here that the saving baptism is an inward work and a clean conscience or good conscience is part of this. It is not the putting away of the filth of the flesh or an outward washing with water.

The conscience cannot be clean or good or perfect by outward ordinances such as diverse washings (or baptismos in Greek) as we read,

Hebrews 9:9. Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;10. Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation...14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?”

Did you carefully read what I said...and did you read my post #4?

You're making my point. However, the first thing the Lord ask of us after being saved is to be baptized in water...and this is very clear as the apostles demonstrate throughout the book of Acts. Those who believe are baptized to be identified with Christ, as Romans 6:4 clearly indicates.

So this is my position: After coming to faith in Christ, baptism is the first thing the Lord commands. It doesn't save though...it IDENTIFIES us with Christ.

LoveofTruth · Jul 15, 2019

Albion said:
Yes, I know that, but what Scripture has to say about the matter is what all of us who say we believe in the Bible as God's word should settle it, no?

Exactly. We are speaking of two different things there. That being so, there is no basis for saying that the first one is not needed, simply because of how we understand the second one.

I’m saying (as scripture says), that the two baptisms are not the same one together. As I showed.

I am also saying (as scripture shows), that the Jewish believers for a time were zealous of the law and customs and that we see this transition in Acts to some degree though mostly with Paul and a few other discussions with the Jewish believers.

And John said he would baptize with water and Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. These are two different baptisms and Jesus said in Acts 1, that John baptized with water but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This shows that water baptism was past with John who is now decreased in that ministry and dead. Also, John said he must decrease (his ministry implied) and he was still under the diverse washings of the Old Testament as others were. They still were close to Johns water baptism and the Jews were still close also to the law and old covenant and customs and sacrifices etc. I am speaking about Jewish believers.

LoveofTruth · Jul 15, 2019

misput said:
Most charismatic denominations believe salvation and baptism must be accompanied by scenarios like we see in acts two, nineteen and the Cornelius family.

Many Christians miss the transitional or reformation aspect of the book of Acts in relation to the Jews and the Gentiles issues.

If we say, “we’ll, if they did it in Acts we should do it also”. This would cause confusion, because Jewish Christians still sacrificed animals all through Acts and circumcised Jewish believers, were zealous of the law and customs were still in the old covenant that was fading away, went into the temple and followed the law with high priest and Levite’s and all the law. Had dietary laws and kept feast etc.

Are all believers today to follow these things because they did it in Acts? No. I would also add that they followed Johns water baptism as well which was for Israel and under the law and old covenant and was to decrease also.

But all this was no longer needed, they were in the time of reformation and the old covenant was slowly fading away, even though it had ended with Jesus death and resurrection and a new covenant is now in place.

LoveofTruth · Jul 15, 2019

Albion said:
Yes, I know that, but what Scripture has to say about the matter is what all of us who say we believe in the Bible as God's word should settle it, no?

Exactly. We are speaking of two different things there. That being so, there is no basis for saying that the first one is not needed, simply because of how we understand the second one.

Here is an interesting quote from an old Quaker writer Robert Barclays (and no I am not a Quaker).

“First, that there is but one baptism, as well as but one Lord, one faith,...”

As for the first, viz., "that there is but one baptism," there needs no other proof than the words of the text (Eph. 4:5): "One Lord, one faith, one baptism"; where the apostle positively and plainly affirms, that as there is but one body, one Spirit, one faith, one God, &c., so there is but one baptism.

Obj. As to what is commonly alleged by way of explanation upon the text, that the baptism of water and of the Spirit make up this one baptism, by virtue of the sacramental union.

Answ. I answer, This exposition hath taken place not because grounded upon the testimony of the Scripture but because it wrests the Scripture to make it suit to their principle of water baptism, and so there needs no other reply but to deny it, as being repugnant to the plain words of the text, which saith not that there are two baptisms, to wit, one of water, the other of the Spirit, which do make up one baptism, but plainly, that there is "one baptism," as there is "one faith" and "one God." Now there goeth not two faiths, nor two Gods, nor two Spirits, nor two bodies, whereof the one is outward and elementary and the other spiritual and pure, to the making up of the one faith, the one God, the one body, and the one Spirit; so neither ought there to go two baptisms to make up the one baptism.

Obj. But secondly, if it be said the baptism is but one, whereof water is the one part, to wit, the sign; and the Spirit, the thing signified, the other.

Answ. I answer, this yet more confirmeth our doctrine, for, if water be only the sign, it is not the matter of the one baptism (as shall further hereafter by its definition in Scripture appear), and we are to take the one baptism for the matter of it, not for the sign, or figure and type, that went before, even as where Christ is called the "one offering" in Scripture though he was typified by many sacrifices and offerings under the Law, we understand only by the one offering, his offering himself upon the cross, whereof though those many offerings were figures and types, yet we say not that they go together with that offering of Christ to make up the one offering; so neither, though water baptism was a sign of Christ's baptism, will it follow that it goeth now to make up the baptism of Christ. If any should be so absurd as to affirm that this one baptism here were the baptism of water and not of the Spirit, that were foolishly to contradict the positive testimony of the Scripture, which saith the contrary, as by what followeth will more amply appear.”

Albion · Jul 15, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
I’m saying (as scripture says), that the two baptisms are not the same one together.

That's right. I said the same thing to you.

And the second of those is a baptism only by comparison (to sacramental baptism) or analogy, the same as we speak of a baptism of fire or being buried with Him in baptism, etc.

And John said he would baptize with water and Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost. These are two different baptisms and Jesus said in Acts 1, that John baptized with water but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Also true. But Jesus also commanded what you call water baptism although his was not the same as John’s baptism, and there are a number of examples in the New Testament of it being administered. John’s baptism was merely a forerunner to Christian baptism and symbolized the Jewish candidate’s commitment to a new life.

LoveofTruth · Jul 17, 2019

Albion said:
That's right. I said the same thing to you.

And the second of those is a baptism only by comparison (to sacramental baptism) or analogy, the same as we speak of a baptism of fire or being buried with Him in baptism, etc.

Also true. But Jesus also commanded what you call water baptism although his was not the same as John’s baptism, and there are a number of examples in the New Testament of it being administered. John’s baptism was merely a forerunner to Christian baptism and symbolized the Jewish candidate’s commitment to a new life.

Can you show me one verse where Jesus commands WATER baptism for New Testament believers? And I will need to see the word “water” in the command. No assumptions or reading into the text.

Thank you and God bless

Albion · Jul 17, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Can you show me one verse where Jesus commands WATER baptism for New Testament believers?

Matthew 28:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

One Son · Jul 17, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Can you show me one verse where Jesus commands WATER baptism for New Testament believers? And I will need to see the word “water” in the command. No assumptions or reading into the text.

Thank you and God bless

Jn.3:4(YLT) Nicodemus saith unto him, ‘How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?’ 5Jesus answered, ‘Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; 6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7‘Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

LoveofTruth · Jul 18, 2019

One Son said:
Jn.3:4(YLT) Nicodemus saith unto him, ‘How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?’ 5Jesus answered, ‘Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God; 6that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. 7‘Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;

If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.(2Cor.5:17).

It dies not refer to water baptism and Jesus did not say “water baptism.” You are reading into the text something that is not there.

Try again.

In John 3 Jesus is referring to two birth the natural flesh birth and the spiritual birth. Read 3:6 to clarify

LoveofTruth · Jul 18, 2019

Albion said:
Matthew 28:16-20 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Great Commission
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Nope.

Jesus did not mention water baptism there. And we never see such a formula being used in the bible forcwater baptism. What is being said is as the KJV says it that the teaching immersed (baptizing) them into the name. The name means character authority power life and virtues here

As we read

Matthew 28:19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Jesus kept them in the name of the Father while on earth and manifested the Fathers name. Now we teach immersing them into the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost.

John 17:11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

John 17:5. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

And we read more about entering into or immersed into the name

Proverbs 18:10. The name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe.”

Albion · Jul 18, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Jesus did not mention water baptism there.

First, "water baptism" is a contrived, artificial term that you use. There is no mention of it in Scripture because "baptism" is what we are talking about. References to it as the initiatory rite of Christianity...and to water being used with it, are there, as we both know.

So to say there was no mention of "water baptism" is meaningless. Baptism comes with water just like the Lords Supper comes with bread!

Second, the baptism referred to in the verse from Matthew that I gave you in reply to your challenge HAS TO BE what you call "water baptism" because the Apostles were told to do it. It cannot therefore, be a reference to baptism by the Holy Spirit or baptism of desire or anything else called a kind of baptism by comparison which are not dependent upon a human administrator.

And we never see such a formula being used in the bible for water baptism.

That isn't true either. While the wording is not identical, there are a number of other references in the New Testament to invoking the name of the Lord when administering baptism. See Acts of the Apostles 2:38; 8:12; 8:16; 10:48; and 19:5

LoveofTruth · Jul 19, 2019

Baptism is not always water. The word simply means to immerse into.

Jesus defines water baptism from other baptisms here

Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

Albion · Jul 19, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
Baptism is not always water.

Well, it HAS TO BE so, given the wording of the verse I presented to you at your request. I explained why that is.

The word simply means to immerse into.

...or to wash or dip or several other things in addition to immerse.

But in any case, are you not telling me that this means that "baptism" necessarily refers to something which involves water???

Jesus defines water baptism from other baptisms here

Acts 1:5. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.”

No. He merely said--and it is clear from the quote you gave us here--that it was only John’s baptism, so called, which was merely a symbol and a continuation of a century old Jewish practice. It does not refer to baptism as practiced by the first Christians.

The Water Gospel of the Campbellites

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