How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

ewq1938 said:

This doesn't mention resurrections, only separations.

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Yet you've skirted the fact that Christ is sitting on a throne separating sheep and goats. Who would He be separating? The unredeemed living from the redeemed living? How would that be if the redeemed living have already received glorified bodies?

The goats and the sheep obviously are raised at the same time. There's no getting around what the text says.

ewq1938 said:

The day of the Lord here is not only the second coming but everything that happens as a result of his return which includes the Millennium reign over the nations and then judgment day and culminating with the new heaven and new Earth of Rev 21 which is the beginning of the eternity. Similar to how the beast reigning one hour is actually speaking of the 42 months, or a day being like a thousand years to God.

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Yet you also skirt the language where it states "Day of the Lord" also includes the destruction of this heavens and earth. 2 Peter 3:10

ewq1938 said:

No, it's a reference to the dead Christians resurrecting. It is not a reference to the living Christians.

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Again, you've skirted the verse before. In verse 16 Paul is explaining that the believers who are living when this event occurs, are not translated before the dead are raised. That is the context he makes this statement in.

ewq1938 said:

Of course. They are the nations that will be ruled over by a rod of iron for a thousand years after Christ returns. Just as some Christians survive the great trib, some of the unsaved nations will survive the second coming.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

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OK, let's take a look at this passage you quoted in Revelation. Chapter 2 begins with addresses to 7 churches. Now note the verse just before the verses you quoted:

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

(Note that this is addressed to a specific people in a particular geographic location. Not that we can't learn from these instructions; but are initially directed at a particular people at a certain point in history.)

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

(Here is where we can "translate" this to a "universal application" speaking to all believers from Pentecost to the end. Those who overcome and keep His works until the end.)

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

(Now this "he" is not speaking if Christ, it's speaking of the believer who overcomes and keeps Christ's works until the end. He (the believer(s)) shall break the nations into slivers. Slivers of what? Answer: the redeemed and the unredeemed. Even as Christ has received of His Father. Remember Jesus told all His disciples of many might works that they would do.)

28 And I will give him the morning star.

(Now here's an interesting one! Who in Scripture is called "the morning star"? Hint: Isaiah 14:12. The name "Lucifer" literally means "morning star". So what this means is that the believer who "overcomes" and "keeps (Christ's) works until the end" is given authority over Satan.)

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Now this power over Satan is eluded to in other passages:

Mark 16:
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Now again, we have to understand these verses in the context of the spiritual realm. Yeah there are "churches" who try to drink cyanid and pick up poisonous snakes; but these passages are talking about the context of people becoming redeemed because they are delivered out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Son.

Jesus states "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it". That's not a defensive stance the church is taking, it's an offensive stance. Satan isn't assailing the church, the church is assailing the gates of hell and the gates of hell do not withstand that assault.

ewq1938 said:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

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Again, let's take a look at Revelation 2:

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Now obviously this lamb is Christ; and obviously too this is symbolic language. Jesus was not a literal lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes. This is showing us in symbolic language something that's going on in a realm we can't see.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Now verse 10 is "future tense". And I suppose there is a couple of ways it could be interpreted, both of which can be correct.

Historical time table: The lamb that is slain is Christ appearing in heaven immediately after death. This hearkens back to "Today you shall be with me in Paradise." Note He's not "reigning" yet. He's found worthy to open the scroll. This is His human soul and spirit in heaven. His body is in the tomb. This is upon completing "preaching to the captives in prison" "You have not left my soul in hell or Your holy one to see corruption." The captives in prison which He has released have appeared with Him. These are those who "came out of great tribulation". The "great tribulation" ended when the angel of death came upon Jesus in Gethsemane.

I explained this back in post #46 of this thread.

So the "reigning on earth" of the believers, could be coincided with Pentecost; because now believers are empowered by the Holy Ghost. And God obviously has authority over Satan.

This obviously though would not apply to those who are already dead.

Our clue though may come from verse 13:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

This could be future / post judgement day / new heavens and new earth recreated universe, that verse 10 is referring to "reigning on the earth"? Because do we see "today" or in "dispensational view" of the "millennial kingdom" "every creature" in heaven, earth, under earth and such in the sea saying "Blessing and glory and honor and power to Him that sits on the throne."?

Answer: No we don't, especially since Satan is loosed at the end of the millennial reign.

ewq1938 said:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

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OK, let's deal with Revelation 19:
This is a tough chapter to crack because there's so many elements in here.

Verses 7-8 say that the "marriage supper of the lamb has come". Jesus speaks of the bridegroom in several passages in the New Testament.

The first reference is John's disciples asking Jesus why his disciples don't fast. Jesus's response is "How can they fast when the bridegroom is with them?" Obviously a reference to himself. (Matthew 9, Mark 2, Luke 5)

Related to this, in John 3, John the Baptist makes reference to Jesus being the bridegroom.

The second reference is the parable of the 10 virgins (Matthew 25). This reference is often equated to the "rapture" (or the resurrection of the saints). Which I would not disagree with because the language "I never knew you" correlates with the resurrection of the dead.

But could the "marriage supper of the lamb" actually be talking about Pentecost? Those disobedient of the nation are not let into the marriage supper. Jesus does make reference to those of the nation about them finding themselves cast out of the kingdom. Although clearly Jesus's reference here is "where there's wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Sheol). He says this to a bunch of people who are following him in relation to a centurion who comes to ask that his servant be healed. And Jesus states that He's not seen such great faith in all of Israel. (Matthew 8:11-12) Yet, they don't realize they are cast out of the Kingdom until they die. And the references to Sheol come before the final judgement because "death and hell" are cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)

Now back to Revelation 19:

Following this about the marriage supper is this discourse about the rider on the white horse.

Verse 11 - He's making war.

Verse 12 - He's wearing many crowns.

Verse 13 - His name is called "the word of God".

Verse 14 - The armies in heaven are also on white horses dressed in fine linen.

Verse 15 - He "may smite" the nations, (present tense) "will rule" (future tense - rule is also translated "shepherd") "does tread" (present tense).

Now there is another passage in Revelation that speaks of Christ "trending the wine press of the wrath of almighty God by Himself". That is a reference to the atonement, but I don't think this passage is speaking of the atonement because Christ is making war and wearing many crowns. Is this a reference to the final judgement or is this judgement declared as the gospel goes forth?

Verse 17 - The angel tells the fowls to gather for "the supper of God" that they may "eat the flesh of kings and captains ....."

Verse 19 - the beast and the kings gather to make war against Christ and His armies.

Verse 20 - the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire.

Now it looks as if this chapter is clearly talking about the final judgement; yet could it be that it's referring to the point in time when Christ commences His reign? Because when we get to the beginning of chapter 20; that speaks of Satan being bound.

It's either that; or these chapters are not portraying events as they occur in chronological order.

So.... is the beast and the false prophet currently in the "lake of fire" in the Al-mill / post-mill understanding? Interesting question? It does say that the false prophet and the beast are "cast alive" into the lake of fire. And there is other language that seems to say that they exist up until the end of time. @mkgal1 - there's something to ponder - ehh!

We do see a "healing" of one of the beast's heads that seems to correlate with the end of time related to Satan deceiving the nations. Which looking at the politics of the middle-east and this political movement called Zionism. It makes me wonder? The "beast system" runs the world with an economic strangle hold. Yet, speaking of the global banking system and such would probably be better dealt with in another thread.

ewq1938 said:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The thousand years is the first time in history Satan is imprisoned and cannot deceive people. After the end of the thousand years Satan and the unsaved will be cast into the LOF and the NHNE will begin. The thousand year rod of iron rule is a Christian Theocracy during which Christ and his saints rule over everyone in the world. Obviously there is no Christian Theocracy right now as the majority of the world rejects Christ and is either atheist or involved in false religions. That won't be the case during the real thousand years.

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So let's take a look at Revelation 20 now:

I looked up the word "deceive" (the nations). It means "cause to wander" or "go off course". It's most commonly used in reference to planets getting out of orbit. Which this doesn't have to do with individuals out of nations not being able to recognize the true gospel. Yet this does imply a distortion of the truth. The nations are deceived by false representations of Christ.

Now "nations" means "tribe" (plural). The tribes of the earth collectively speaking. Does this have political implications? If connected to Zionism, I would say "absolutely". What is the biggest lie concerning that which has political implications? LOL. Again, probably subject for another thread.

ewq1938 said:

I don't. Do you?

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Well, apparently than the "first resurrection" coincided with Christ's resurrection!

DavidPT said:

It's actually an easy question to answer. It's as of the 2nd coming. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe that's why no one can find any Scriptures pinpointing exactly when this initially occurred, assuming it has already occurred. I have yet to see someone point out where it fits in Revelation 12. satan's binding has to be meaning after the war in heaven, and after he has already been cast unto the earth. Verse 17 in that same chapter obviously involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. That 42 month reign leads to the 2nd coming. The only place satan's initial binding fits is after the time of the beast in Revelation 13. That only fits with Premil, and for sure doesn't fit with Amil.

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Yet, Scripture is not still being written, so if there really is no Scripture that tells us when it happen(ed)(s) than there never will be any Scripture that tells us when it did / will. That argument doesn't support your view any more than it refutes mine.

ewq1938 said:

No he isn't reigning yet (the rod of iron reign). This position is Premil. Amil says he is reigning now which as you say is not correct.

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So Christ via the Holy Spirit has no power to raise anyone to spiritual life is what you are saying; because He does not reign over the kingdom of Satan currently.

ewq1938 said:

That isn't the first of two groups resurrecting that's found in Rev 20. You can't take the context of one passage and force it on another passage...that's Eisegesis.

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Yet that's exactly what you do when you ignore the passages that state all are raised at once.

ewq1938 said:

It clearly shows the just resurrecting before the unjust. It doe4sn't tell us how much time in inbetween but Rev 20 does. "the rest of the dead lived not again until" proves Premil to be correct on this.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There are two groups resurrecting here while Amil claims all the dead resurrect all together at the same time. The first group are the just. No unjust resurrects when the just do. That proves Amil wrong on one point.

The second way it proves Amil wrong is Amil claims the first resurrection of Rev 20 isn't a bodily resurrection from the dead yet this verse does have dead people bodily resurrecting. This verse plus Rev 20 proves the "first resurrection" is the first group out of two groups of the dead that resurrect bodily.

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Yet if the first resurrection was actually recorded in this passage here in Matthew (about those who came out of the graves after Christ's resurrection) than it is a bodily resurrection but it's still an al-mil / post-mill interpretation.

ewq1938 said:

No scripture states they are raised all at once.

The dead saints resurrecting when Christ died is not the same thing we find in Rev 20.

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Well, no Scripture that you want to acknowledge. LOL

And why not? Why are the dead saints resurrecting after Christ rose not the same thing as in Revelation? If Scripture interprets Scripture?

ewq1938 said:

No, I didn't say that. What I said is you are changing what the first resurrection in Rev 20 is into something it is not.

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Well what do you think Christ reigning means, if it's not connected to the spiritual power to raise sinners to redemption?

Dispensationalism falls into the same trap first century Jews fell into in wanting a political messiah to rule over an earthly kingdom. "My kingdom is not of this world". So why would Christ sit on an earthly throne in Jerusalem ruling over a world that's half glorified and half not. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!

ewq1938 said:

It's two different timeframes and the ones in the gospel resurrect back to moral life not to immortality.

The first resurrection in Rev 20 is only speaking about the first group out of two groups the chapter speak about coming back to life.

Therefore the first resurrection of Rev 20 isn't speaking about Christ resurrecting, and isn't speaking of the dead saints resurrecting when Christ died. While both of those are a "first resurrection" it is not the "first resurrection" John saw and wrote about in Rev 20. Bring other "first resurrection"s and forcing them into Rev 20 is a contextual fallacy.

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Well, this resurrection at Christ's resurrection would hold true to your millennial view. You still have a resurrection at the beginning of the millennial reign and one at the end!

I don't see what the problem is?

You can't have a "first resurrection" before the "first resurrection" any more than you can have a "last day" after the "last day".

It fails to make logical sense.

LOL

ewq1938 said:

Reigning with the rod of iron means to have authority over your enemies. So the issue isn't a generic "reigning" but the specific future time when Christ and his saints will reign with a rod of iron over the nations. That reign is future, and it is only for a thousand years. Jesus reigns now and will forever but the specific reign of the rod of iron is a special and limited reign.

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He currently does exercise authority over His enemies. Unless you deny that Christ has authority over Satan right now!