How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
A mean dog on a long chain is bound in some sense.
However, if you get too close you are in danger.

Satan is not bound in the lake of fire, like a dog on a long chain.
He is done.

Rev_20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

..................................

Satan is only bound in one sense in Revelation chapter 20.

Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

.......................................

2Pe_2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

.

LOL---the dog on a leash thing again. If I ever do become Amil someday, one thing I promise is this. I will never use the dog on a leash analogy to try and support anything about satan's binding.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

satan must be on the longest leash in the universe. This doesn't depict satan being on the defense. This depicts him being on the offense. When a dog is tied up to a chain in it's yard, it is hardly also walking about in it's neighbors' yards down the block. When real world imagery is used to describe something, it has to match the imagery being used. It would be pointless to even bother using real world imagery to describe things, if in the real world it means this or that, but that it means something entirely different when it is being applied to something in the Bible. To add to this point. The imagery used to describe satan's binding, what would that mean in the real world? If someone is bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then the lid shut upon them, would they still be able to go to Walmart to shop, for example? Would they still be able to roam around outside of the pit while they are shut up inside of it?

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

@ewq1938 @DavidPT

What do you guys do with these verse? It's very clear here that all the dead are raised at the same time!

John 5:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

ewq1938 said:
No scripture shows that.

(The rapture coinciding with the destruction of the heavens and the earth.)

"The Day of the Lord"

2 Peter 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Thessalonians 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The "Day of the Lord" is the day Jesus returns.

1 Corinthians 1:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which states "the dead in Christ shall rises first" is contextually in reference to the redeemed who are alive at the time of the end; who are "translated" in the process of the entirety of humanity being raised. Keep in mind that there are also unregenerate who are also still living upon Christ's return.

Now if we go back to these passages in John and Matthew; it raises an interesting point about those who've been atoned for, who've never heard of Christ, yet believed based on the witness of creation. It's probably those people who are among the nations who are being divided. These are those I'd explained earlier who Paul references in Romans who "have not the law" but when they obey it anyway, they are "a law unto themselves". God is not going to condemn someone because a missionary "didn't get to them". God understand there are certain limits to human endeavors to spread the gospel and those limits don't frustrate His plan.

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

As per the "binding of Satan" if you'd want to use a more "accurate" analogy?

Satan is "out on bond".

Satan is condemned, he knows it's over and has been kicked out of heaven as the accuser of the brethren.

You also have to consider that what is happening in the spiritual realm, we are not going to physically see in literal analogy.

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
As per the "binding of Satan" if you'd want to use a more "accurate" analogy?

Satan is "out on bond".

Here's an idea. Provide an analogy that takes both parts into consideration--his binding followed by his loosing.

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away.

Another thought I had about this post: As I mentioned before, satan is a *spirit* so to think of him as a physical entity (which it seems as if you're doing) that moves from location to location - would distort the understanding of the text.

When satan is "cast from heaven" - I don't take that in a physical way. Instead, to me, that means he no longer belongs in the presence of God. It's more about his *status* - not his "residence".

It's probably better to read Revelation more as poetry (definitely not a literal report of facts).

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
Here's an idea. Provide an analogy that takes both parts into consideration--his binding followed by his loosing.

Several posters have pointed out that the "binding" and "loosing" is related to the deceiving of the nations. (That's also what the text says.)

Could one use the analogy of "yellow journalism" in that? There are times in history when the news is telling you the truth and there are times when it isn't. The losing of Satan I believe has to do with misinterpretations / false gospels related to Christianity. @TribulationSigns eluded to this.

The corporate church is in a bad state as far as the truth of the Bible goes. The counter force to that is that God has provided us with the technology we now have to be able to study for ourselves. We have greater access to acquire knowledge of truth than any generation has ever had. What took people of past generations life times to compile, we can do in 15 minutes with average Bible concordance software. There's no earthy reason that we shouldn't know our Bibles better than we do.

And here's where the "yellow journalism" analogy come in. Who's teaching all this false doctrine that people are now so incredibly confused. Answer: people who are influenced by Satan.

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
satan must be on the longest leash in the universe.

That is not what the Bible says.

Satan was cast out of heaven long ago.

................................

If you think the long leash is a bad example, put a 30 foot chain on a rabid dog and then fasten the other end of the chain to a stake in the ground. To show how silly the example is, take a nap within 20 feet of the stake with no weapons, or other method of defending yourself.

After your series of rabies shots are finished come back and let us know how well the example works...

.

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

As to Matthew 25 I don't interpret it like most do. Instead of me having to type out
how I see it, the following pretty much describes to a T how I view it.

At the following link---- Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? -----the question asked was this---Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? There were several answers to the question. The answer that is closest to my view is as follows----

-----------------------------------------------------------
Goats and sheep are indistinguishable from a distance in the same way that wheat and tares are indistinguishable. Both sheep and goats are also "kosher" animals, which makes them similar. Thus this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). In other words, the scope of this judgment is for the declared followers of the shepherd, who are ostensibly "kosher" creatures.

Ezekiel 20:33-44 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew, when the Lord God will one day regather his people from the nations of the world in order to be their king. That is, this regathering will be a mix of the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). Thus he will judge his people in the "wilderness of the peoples" (Ezek 20:35). The comparison here is to the wilderness of the land of Egypt (Ezek 20:36), where the Lord had "purged" his people in order to prevent "rebels and transgressors" from entering the Promised Land. Thus the scope of judgment is limited to the declared followers of the Lord. As the shepherd he will make his people "pass under the rod" (Ezek 20:37). In this context, the goats will undergo the following.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

At the end of Matthew 25:31-46 the announcement is made: “These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life.” That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?
----------------------------------------------

I was totally amazed when I discovered there are others interpreting these things pretty much the same way as I am. I came to my own conclusions about the sheep and goats judgement ages ago from my own reading of it. IOW not something someone ever taught me about in the past. That doesn't make my interpretation automatically correct, but at the same time, how can this be explained by it just being a mere coincidence that others also interpret it such as I do?

This would mean the sheep and goats judgment is not the GWTJ. Plus it makes sense, since that is what Jesus was going on about at the end of Matthew 24, then in ch 25 leading up to this judgment. He was clearly talking about professed servants of His, where one group are profitable, the other group are unprofitable. One last point I neglected to make. When Jesus returns where will His professed servants be found? Throughout the nations of the earth of course---thus---And before him shall be gathered all nations

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
As to Matthew 25 I don't interpret it like most do. Instead of me having to type out
how I see it, the following pretty much describes to a T how I view it.

At the following link---- Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? -----the question asked was this---Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? There were several answers to the question. The answer that is closest to my view is as follows----

-----------------------------------------------------------
Goats and sheep are indistinguishable from a distance in the same way that wheat and tares are indistinguishable. Both sheep and goats are also "kosher" animals, which makes them similar. Thus this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). In other words, the scope of this judgment is for the declared followers of the shepherd, who are ostensibly "kosher" creatures.

Ezekiel 20:33-44 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew, when the Lord God will one day regather his people from the nations of the world in order to be their king. That is, this regathering will be a mix of the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). Thus he will judge his people in the "wilderness of the peoples" (Ezek 20:35). The comparison here is to the wilderness of the land of Egypt (Ezek 20:36), where the Lord had "purged" his people in order to prevent "rebels and transgressors" from entering the Promised Land. Thus the scope of judgment is limited to the declared followers of the Lord. As the shepherd he will make his people "pass under the rod" (Ezek 20:37). In this context, the goats will undergo the following.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

At the end of Matthew 25:31-46 the announcement is made: “These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life.” That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?
----------------------------------------------

I was totally amazed when I discovered there are others interpreting these things pretty much the same way as I am. I came to my own conclusions about the sheep and goats judgement ages ago from my own reading of it. IOW not something someone ever taught me about in the past. That doesn't make my interpretation automatically correct, but at the same time, how can this be explained by it just being a mere coincidence that others also interpret it such as I do?

This would mean the sheep and goats judgment is not the GWTJ. Plus it makes sense, since that is what Jesus was going on about at the end of Matthew 24, then in ch 25 leading up to this judgment. He was clearly talking about professed servants of His, where one group are profitable, the other group are unprofitable. One last point I neglected to make. When Jesus returns where will His professed servants be found? Throughout the nations of the earth of course---thus---And before him shall be gathered all nations

Note verse 31 - He's "sitting upon his throne of glory" while He's doing this. Gee, that looks an awful lot like "great white throne judgement"!

Also note, the passage still says "all nations" are raised. It doesn't say just the righteous of all nations but all nations.

Now you still have to reconcile John 5. Where he says "all in the graves will hear his voice" and all shall be raised "some unto the resurrection of life and others unto the resurrection of damnation".

Now compare those too with all the passages that speak of "the last day". When you can put all the passages together and your conclusion jives with all of them; then you know you have the right answer.

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

BABerean2 said:
Did the kingdom of God come in verse 28 above, and is it connected to binding?

DavidPT said:
What Jesus said and did there was something already a reality before He went to the cross. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm thinking Amils typically have satan being bound around the time of the cross, or at least soon after. Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?

I don't see an answer to BABerean's question here. This is maybe the best question to ask yourself (since that's the main difference between the narrative that premill has set up in comparison to BOTH postmill and amill). IOW....it is ONLY premill (from what I understand - I could very well be wrong) that believes that the Kingdom of God is future.

Jesus is recorded as saying (and demonstrating) that He is the victorious King of this world - that He is the ultimate power. Do you believe Him or do you believe the premill's narrative (which I can't see in any other way than being in complete opposition to what Jesus is recorded as saying)?

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I don't see an answer to BABerean's question. This is maybe the best question to ask yourself (since that's the main difference between the narrative that premill has set up in comparison to BOTH postmill and amill). IOW....it is ONLY premill (from what I understand - I could very well be wrong) that believes that the Kingdom of God is future.

Jesus is recorded as saying (and demonstrating) that He is the victorious King of this world - that He is the ultimate power. Do you believe Him or do you believe the premill's narrative (which I can't see in any other way than being in complete opposition to what Jesus is recorded as saying)?

Good question your statement raises here as in regards to "time of binding".

I know several people have brought up the "strong man" passage and the assessment that the binding was related to the cross. Maybe it wasn't though? Maybe indeed it had come before?

Jesus in the wilderness; Satan departs because Jesus passes the test. I wonder if maybe that is the "time of binding"? Although Ephesians 1 is pretty clear that Christ begins reigning at the resurrection.

There's another passage in Luke 21 that talks about the "distress of nations with perplexity". The Greek indicates that the nations are constrained and they are in a quandary as to how this has happened.

We see though that this is in effect at the trials of Jesus. First of all, the Sanhedrin doesn't just flat out kill Him. So they are restrained in that way.

Next we see how Pilate's actions are inconsistent with his usual way of doing things. The historical Pilate looks very different than the Pilate in the New Testament and historians often question the New Testament because of this. Well, here's the answer as to "why" Pilate is acting "out of character". (The nations are restrained.)

There are several points in the gospels that (at least the centurion) those present at the crucifixion have some clue as to who Jesus is and likely some knowledge of Jewish prophecy / Scriptures.

I also think this was probably true from a human perspective concerning the soldiers too. These soldiers lived in the Antonia Fortress which was in Jerusalem (directly north of the temple actually). And this legion had been there at least 10 years at that point. (Rome rotated legions, not individual soldiers.) So these soldiers had been present for at least the 3 Passovers that Jesus preached. They'd at least heard of Him. They'd probably even heard Him preach as who ever was posted in the vicinity of the temple would have been aware of what was going on in the "court of the gentiles"; (which was often where Jesus was.) The money changers were in the "court of the gentiles".

So the soldiers at the very least knew Jesus was a person of notoriety and they divided his clothing for that reason.

There's an interesting passage in one of the gospels where it states "the soldiers said among themselves let us divide his clothing... that prophecy may be fulfilled". And interestingly, there is no indication in that sentence that there should be a break in the flow of words between what the soldiers say and prophecy being fulfilled. Are the soldiers actually saying, let's do this that prophecy might be fulfilled. That seems to be what the sentence indicates. Although the soldiers themselves may not have known that and that information may have been pass on to them from someone else (the centurion) in their chain of command who was also present at the crucifixion. Centurions were present at executions to report back to the authority "official death notice".

So yes, when exactly was the binding of Satan? That's a question worthy of a little more research!

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Good question your statement raises here as in regards to "time of binding".

I'm not going to take the credit for that - BABerean framed the question, I just pressed for an answer

The Righterzpen said:
I know several people have brought up the "strong man" passage and the assessment that the binding was related to the cross. Maybe it wasn't though? Maybe indeed it had come before?

Jesus in the wilderness; Satan departs because Jesus passes the test. I wonder if maybe that is the "time of binding"? Although Ephesians 1 is pretty clear that Christ begins reigning at the resurrection.

There's another passage in Luke 21 that talks about the "distress of nations with perplexity". The Greek indicates that the nations are constrained and they are in a quandary as to how this has happened.

We see though that this is in effect at the trials of Jesus. First of all, the Sanhedrin doesn't just flat out kill Him. So they are restrained in that way.

Next we see how Pilate's actions are inconsistent with his usual way of doing things. The historical Pilate looks very different than the Pilate in the New Testament and historians often question the New Testament because of this. Well, here's the answer as to "why" Pilate is acting "out of character". (The nations are restrained.)

There are several points in the gospels that (at least the centurion) those present at the crucifixion have some clue as to who Jesus is and likely some knowledge of Jewish prophecy / Scriptures.

In my belief - I think that what we see prior to the cross is God's ultimate power OVER satan.

The Righterzpen said:
So yes, when exactly was the binding of Satan? That's a question worthy of a little more research!

Right.....to me, it's so much simpler to focus on one main (and clear) question. And, to me, that's the one that's most direct.

St Paul seems to think that it's the resurrection that is at the heart of God's message (and I tend to agree). That's when He accomplished "taking away the sin of the world" that rendered satan's weapon of accusation completely worthless against us:

1 Corinthians 15:14 ~ And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith.

claninja · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
As to Matthew 25 I don't interpret it like most do. Instead of me having to type out
how I see it, the following pretty much describes to a T how I view it.

At the following link---- Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? -----the question asked was this---Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25? There were several answers to the question. The answer that is closest to my view is as follows----

-----------------------------------------------------------
Goats and sheep are indistinguishable from a distance in the same way that wheat and tares are indistinguishable. Both sheep and goats are also "kosher" animals, which makes them similar. Thus this judgment is not between the righteous (believers) and wicked (unbelievers), but between the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). In other words, the scope of this judgment is for the declared followers of the shepherd, who are ostensibly "kosher" creatures.

Ezekiel 20:33-44 appears to be the parallel account in the Hebrew Bible to this passage in Matthew, when the Lord God will one day regather his people from the nations of the world in order to be their king. That is, this regathering will be a mix of the righteous (believers) and the apparent-righteous (unbelievers). Thus he will judge his people in the "wilderness of the peoples" (Ezek 20:35). The comparison here is to the wilderness of the land of Egypt (Ezek 20:36), where the Lord had "purged" his people in order to prevent "rebels and transgressors" from entering the Promised Land. Thus the scope of judgment is limited to the declared followers of the Lord. As the shepherd he will make his people "pass under the rod" (Ezek 20:37). In this context, the goats will undergo the following.

Matthew 7:21-23 (NASB) 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”

At the end of Matthew 25:31-46 the announcement is made: “These (goats) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous (sheep) into eternal life.” That is, the sheep are the righteous (believers) and the goats are the unrighteous (unbelievers) notwithstanding that both groups were the ostensible and therefore self-declared followers of the Lord.

The idea here is that those "believers" who love other "believers" through both their words and deeds are indeed the sheep (cf. Ja 2:15-17 and 1 Jn 3:18), whereas the remainder (the goats) are those whose spiritual gifts (which were prophesying, healing, miracles) were of no use or benefit to the sheep (hunger, thirst, nakedness, sickness, and their loneliness in incarceration) and therefore the goats were never "known" by the Lord.

Who are the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25?
----------------------------------------------

I was totally amazed when I discovered there are others interpreting these things pretty much the same way as I am. I came to my own conclusions about the sheep and goats judgement ages ago from my own reading of it. IOW not something someone ever taught me about in the past. That doesn't make my interpretation automatically correct, but at the same time, how can this be explained by it just being a mere coincidence that others also interpret it such as I do?

This would mean the sheep and goats judgment is not the GWTJ. Plus it makes sense, since that is what Jesus was going on about at the end of Matthew 24, then in ch 25 leading up to this judgment. He was clearly talking about professed servants of His, where one group are profitable, the other group are unprofitable. One last point I neglected to make. When Jesus returns where will His professed servants be found? Throughout the nations of the earth of course---thus---And before him shall be gathered all nations

I came to a very similar conclusion a couple of years ago.

For me, it was the responses of the sheep and goats that really gave it away.

The sheep respond humbly and ask "when did they do these things?", in response to what Christ said they did.

Matthew 25:34-40 Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

This corresponds with the nations in Christ, which I would argue includes the elect Jews, not intentionally pursuing the law for righteousness. Thus they obtain it by faith.

Romans 9:30 Romans 9:30-32 What then will we say? That the nations, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith

The goats, however, do not respond humbly. In fact, they ask when did they NOT do these things. Which results in Jesus telling them off.

Matthew 25:44 And they too will reply, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’

This corresponds with Israel intentionally pursing the law, but not obtaining righteousness because it was not by faith.

Romans 9:31-32 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works.

However....

The difference probably between your and I, is that I believe the son of man sitting on his glorious throne is the ascension of Christ to heaven. This is when the kingdom comes:

Revelation 12:10 Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—
he who accuses them day and night before our God.

Mark 9:1 Then Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power.”

John 11:51-52 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.

For when the son sits on His throne, the kingdom comes and the gathering of the sheep and goats, the catching all kinds of fish, and the growing of wheat and tares together begins

Matthew 25:31-32a When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him

Matthew 13:47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish

Matthew 13:24,29 The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them

It isn't until end of the age, when the gathered goats/bad fish/tares (wicked) are separated from the sheep/good fish/wheat (righteous)

Matthew 13:49 So will it be at the end of the age: The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Matthew 24:32b and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

According to Daniel, the resurrection of the "many" that sleep in the ground to eternal life or eternal punishment is associated with the great tribulation and destruction of Jerusalem.

Daniel 12:1-2 At that time Michael, the great prince who stands watch over your people, will rise up. There will be a time of distress such as never has occurred from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daneil 12:7 And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

Jesus also associates the Chapter 12 of Daniel with the separating of the wheat and tares at the end of the age.

Daniel 12:3 Then the wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness will shine like the stars forever and ever.

Matthew 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Thus we can conclude that the gathering/growing/catching of the sheep/wheat/good fish/elect Jews and grafted in gentiles that did not pursue righteousness through the law but by faith AND the goats/tares/bad fish/Israel that pursued righteousness through the law occurred from the coming of the kingdom/Christ ascending to the throne and onward until the separating would take place end of the age.

Notice Paul stats there is "about to be" a resurrection. Thus I would argue Paul believed it to be soon. Confirming that Paul believed the tribulation and destruction of Jerusalem as mentioned in the olivet discourse was to happen in his generation.

Acts 24:15 having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there is about to be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Next we see how Pilate's actions are inconsistent with his usual way of doing things. The historical Pilate looks very different than the Pilate in the New Testament and historians often question the New Testament because of this. Well, here's the answer as to "why" Pilate is acting "out of character". (The nations are restrained.)

This is an interesting point that I'd never considered before.

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
You also have to consider that what is happening in the spiritual realm, we are not going to physically see in literal analogy.

This is excellent. Symbolism is a way to express realities (even spiritual realities) - but if the expressions are taken literally.....it all falls apart, really.

With figurative language, I think we need to look at the words and imagery a bit different than our typical sense of these words.

ewq1938 · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
What do you guys do with these verse? It's very clear here that all the dead are raised at the same time!

It may seem to say that but it doesn't explicitly say at the same time and since Rev 20 says "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." Which proves two days of resurrection, not all at the same time.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.[/QUOTE]

The issues here for Amil:

1. It shows the righteous are all resurrected first before the unrighteous are. That disproves what Amil claims regarding all being resurrected at the same time.

2. It also does not state how much time passes between the first resurrection and the second resurrection. Rev 20 provides that info as being a thousand years since "the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years are finished" which is the second resurrection of a group of the dead found in Rev 20. The first group is the first resurrection, the second group a thousand years later is the second resurrection.

3. Amil denies there is a first and second resurrection yet this verse and Rev 20 does prove it.

Matthew 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This doesn't mention resurrections, only separations.

The "Day of the Lord" is the day Jesus returns.

The day of the Lord here is not only the second coming but everything that happens as a result of his return which includes the Millennium reign over the nations and then judgment day and culminating with the new heaven and new Earth of Rev 21 which is the beginning of the eternity. Similar to how the beast reigning one hour is actually speaking of the 42 months, or a day being like a thousand years to God.

Now 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 which states "the dead in Christ shall rises first" is contextually in reference to the redeemed who are alive at the time of the end

No, it's a reference to the dead Christians resurrecting. It is not a reference to the living Christians.

Keep in mind that there are also unregenerate who are also still living upon Christ's return.

Of course. They are the nations that will be ruled over by a rod of iron for a thousand years after Christ returns. Just as some Christians survive the great trib, some of the unsaved nations will survive the second coming.

The rod of iron reign only begins after Christ has come:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The saints reign will be on the Earth not from heaven:

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the EARTH.

second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

After the second coming:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The thousand years is the first time in history Satan is imprisoned and cannot deceive people. After the end of the thousand years Satan and the unsaved will be cast into the LOF and the NHNE will begin. The thousand year rod of iron rule is a Christian Theocracy during which Christ and his saints rule over everyone in the world. Obviously there is no Christian Theocracy right now as the majority of the world rejects Christ and is either atheist or involved in false religions. That won't be the case during the real thousand years.

God understand there are certain limits to human endeavors to spread the gospel and those limits don't frustrate His plan.

True and the rod of iron rule for a thousand years is part of that plan.

ewq1938 · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
As per the "binding of Satan" if you'd want to use a more "accurate" analogy?

Satan is "out on bond".

So Satan isn't actually bound by a chain, cast into a pit with the pit being locked and a seal placed on it so he cannot deceive the nations. He is "out on bond" like getting out of prison and free to do what he did before ever being imprisoned lol....Of course that is not what scripture says about the time Satan is actually imprisoned. It's obvious how the Amil doctrine goes opposite of what scripture actually says.

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

mkgal1 said:
IOW....it is ONLY premill (from what I understand - I could very well be wrong) that believes that the Kingdom of God is future.

I'm Premil and the following is basically how I tend to view this. The kingdom of God involves two aspects, the spiritual and the physical. The spiritual is already here, the physical will be here once Jesus returns.

The spiritual would include what BAB brought up per the strong man example. That aspect of the kingdom is already here.

The aspect of the kingdom, meaning the physical aspect, the part not already here yet, can be found in passages like such.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

This would involve the 2nd coming in order to fulfill. At this point the physical aspect of the kingdom would now be present.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This indicates the kingdom is nigh at hand still. In order for it to be fully present in it's physical state, it will involve the fulfilling of the following first--

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

This is the 2nd coming. The 2nd coming also involves Matthew 25.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

The first part involves the initial coming. The last part involves some of the things He will begin doing once He has arrived.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Notice what it says here, and keep in mind that this is meaning after He has already arrived----inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

This can't be meaning the spiritual aspect of it though, such as we already experience in the here and now, this has to be meaning the physical aspect of it once He has returned.

And since the spiritual aspect of the kingdom might involve the casting of demons out, etc, no would still be doing this or even needing to still do this once Jesus has returned. There has to be two aspects of this same kingdom then.

The Righterzpen · Jul 12, 2019

ewq1938 said:
It may seem to say that but it doesn't explicitly say at the same time and since Rev 20 says "the rest of the dead lived not again until..." Which proves two days of resurrection, not all at the same time.

Yet by the same token you can't reasonably argue that it isn't saying that. There is no denying that the text says "all". It doesn't say "some and later others".

ewq1938 said:
3. Amil denies there is a first and second resurrection yet this verse and Rev 20 does prove it.

Depends on your definition of "first resurrection".

Matthew 27:
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Now do you deny this event occurred in history? Here is your Scriptural evidence of the first resurrection. This too coincided with Christ's resurrection.

Now the question becomes what "holy city" are they talking about? Is this a reference to earthly Jerusalem or heavenly Jerusalem? (I think it is a reference to the heavenly Jerusalem.) Remember that prior to Christ's death there were no believers in heaven.

If you look at the parable of the rich man and Lazarus the redeemed believers were in "Abraham's bosom". Theory has it that was the "top part" of Sheol. Jesus tells one of the thieves. "Today you will be with me in Paradise." Paradise is in the 3rd heaven. (Revelation 2:7) Once Christ dies, all those housed in Abraham's bosom are now allowed into the 3rd heaven. Note too, the "tree of life" is in the new Jerusalem; which is in the 3rd heaven at current.

(Which this could account for the point @claninja makes about Paul believing they were all "about to be resurrected".

Acts 24:
13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offense toward God, and toward men.

Now the context of what Paul is talking about here is directly related to the context of the history immediately around him.

And note verse 15: ".... resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust." He never states first the just and then the unjust 1000 years later. This passage also indicates that the just and unjust are raised together.

:oldthumbsup:

Good verse! Thanks @claninja

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
So yes, when exactly was the binding of Satan? That's a question worthy of a little more research!

It's actually an easy question to answer. It's as of the 2nd coming. It hasn't happened yet. Maybe that's why no one can find any Scriptures pinpointing exactly when this initially occurred, assuming it has already occurred. I have yet to see someone point out where it fits in Revelation 12. satan's binding has to be meaning after the war in heaven, and after he has already been cast unto the earth. Verse 17 in that same chapter obviously involves the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13. That 42 month reign leads to the 2nd coming. The only place satan's initial binding fits is after the time of the beast in Revelation 13. That only fits with Premil, and for sure doesn't fit with Amil.

How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

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