What would it take to make you a Christian?

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Do you think you could pinpoint a particular idea that is unbelievable? In other words, could you say "I can't believe X, and Christianity requires X."

I would say it is the general ideology of christianity.

Humans have been on earth for about 200,000 years and 2,000 years ago, god decides it is tine to send jesus to save mankind? An all loving god, that sends you to your doom, if you dont buy the story? 2/3 of the worlds population, is now doomed because of this loving god?

After i spent time studying the new testament from a scholarly and historical aspect, it opened my eyes and caused me to actually understand, just how morally corrupt the theology is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

caerlerion

Active Member
Jun 28, 2019
78
88
No
✟21,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
In Relationship
DNA wise ALL humans has the potential of an existential crisis and it is active in the majority of humans.
According to what sources?

Religion is the most effective tool to deal with the existential crisis/dilemma.
Again, according to what sources? Your claims so far seem to only be opinion, based on generalized anecdotes. What is the evidence what you're saying is true? For the majority of human history, religion had no way of dealing with personal crises. There was no promise of an afterlife. The gods routinely ignore mortals.

Therefore the majority of humanity need religions.
This doesn't follow, since you haven't substantiated the claims you made above.

The Abrahamic religions [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] which promise instant salvation upon surrender and believe is the more effective group of religions to deal with the existential crisis at present.
Still, on what basis?

Judaism is very inclusive and thus not open freely to all within humanity.
"Inclusive" means "open". I think you mean "exclusive", correct?

Either way, this is a very poor representation of Judaism. For one, you're lumping all denominations together. More conservative ones do typically discourage converts, but this is only because they believe Gentiles don't need to follow the Torah. More progressive denominations are fully open to Gentiles joining them, but again not out of a need to follow the Torah. Even if we accept your initial claim as true (which I am doubtful about), your misrepresentation of Judaism doesn't really make your point.

Christianity has its cons but it pros to humanity is Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. 'love all - even enemies' which prohibit ALL Christians under all conditions from committing evil and violent acts upon non-Christians.
This maxim is not unique to Christianity. It is found in religions older than Christianity. Judaism, of course, has the commandment to "love your neighbor", which specifically includes the instruction "you shall not hate anyone". The concept is found in many other religions, as well, which shows the desire to maintain peace with everyone in a person's community is a basic human need expressed across many cultures. This means it has nothing to do with the validity of any religion.

What's worse, however, is the teaching originates in Christianity with Jesus in the Q source. This source is highly apocalyptic, promising punishment on people who don't follow Jesus or God. Hanging the threat of torment over everyone to compel them to "love others" is necessarily going to result in a very warped idea of love. The apocalyptic context of Jesus' teaching also casts it in a similar light Daniel's "wise" and the DSS's community, who believed in pacifism only because they expected God would unleash punishment on their enemies. Ideologies are hardly "loving" if the underlying assumption behind that love is "you'll get yours".

The one thing you hold up as the uniquely defining trait of Christianity is anything but.
Islam does provide those who surrender and believe instant relieve to the existential crisis via salvation.
However Islam in its full context do not have an overriding pacifist maxim that prohibit ALL Muslims under ALL conditions to commit evil and violence upon non-Muslims.
Islam in the Quran permits or even exhorts all Muslims to war and kill non-Muslims where Islam is under threat [fasadin] (very vaguely defined].
Christianity is much the same. Christianity's love and pacifism is conditional. When the apocalypse unfolds, love and pacifism are lifted. Revelation 19 depicts Jesus and his followers as a militant king and his army, wiping out their enemies and feeding their corpses to scavenger birds. This messianic war scene is found across literature from the time, so interpretations that try to soften the violence of the scene are not justifiable.

Christianity is violent in its foundation.

From the above, the most optimal religion for humanity at the present phase in thus Christianity.
As you can see, I disagree with your conclusion, because I disagree with almost every point you make. Your starting premise seems to be an idea that you invented from anecdotal evidence. You badly misrepresent Judaism. You also miss how the eschatological context of Christianity subverts its pacifism.
 
Upvote 0

Zoness

667, neighbor of the beast
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2008
8,384
1,654
Illinois
✟468,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Do you think you could pinpoint a particular idea that is unbelievable? In other words, could you say "I can't believe X, and Christianity requires X."

You didn't ask me but if I'm picking a few out of thin air: the Exodus story, the Virgin birth, the resurrection, Moses tapping the rocks for water, Jonah and the Whale.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
19,242
2,829
Oregon
✟731,565.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
DNA wise, the existential crisis has been with humans since humans emerged. This existential crisis is permanent until the day humans can tweaked the DNA codings which is not recommended.
I guess first you need to define what your meaning by "existential crisis".

The majority of humans have been dealing with this existential crisis since day one via a series of evolving methods from the basic, animism, primitive religions, polytheistic religions to monotheistic religions.
These past 2000 plus years the monotheistic religions have been the source of some of the worst human horror upon human the world has seen. Talk about "existential crisis"!!

The earlier methods of animism and primitive religions were very crude [praying to trees, mountains, oceans, human sacrifice to please the gods or devil] and not very effective to deal with the existential crisis as human evolved further.
Your understanding of animalism is simplistic at best. Ignorance at worse. And your completely ignoring the depth and breath of family/community support in those cultures. From my perspective the monotheistic religions are a mighty step backwards.

Thus the need for more sophisticated religions like the monotheistic religions which promise instant relief upon surrender and believe.
I'd argue that the monotheistic religions are less sophisticated, less open to the senses of the body to Living Nature, less open to the mystery, less open to the Divine within those of other belief, less open to the needs of Humanity, less open to the wholeness of God, and less open to the subjective perceptional activity of reciprocity we have with this Creation as we can see in the desecration we have bestowed on the Earth. And way more apt towards One True Wayism which in and of itself has generated huge amounts of existential crisis.
 
Upvote 0

Joyousperson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 1, 2019
619
102
48
Beijing
✟48,243.00
Country
China
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Married
According to what sources?
The existential crisis normally as presented in psychology is the following;
What Is An Existential Crisis And How Can It Be Resolved? | Betterhelp

What Is An Existential Crisis And How Can It Be Resolved?
So, what kinds of existential crises are there?
Different psychology writers have identified 4 or 5 existential givens that we all share. Each of these givens can be the source of existential dread, existential anxiety, or even existential despair. By resolving these dilemmas, you can move past your existential crisis.​

2. Death And Limitation
You can't choose whether to die or not. You can't choose to be limitless; no one is. What you can do is choose whether to acknowledge death and limitation psychologically. It would be too hard to be constantly aware that your life's journey will end in death. At the same time, the acknowledgment of death can help you live more fully now.​

From the above, there are 4-5 existential givens, and my focus here is the one related to death, i.e. the perceived eternal death, not wanting to die versus the yearning for eternal life. This generate a terrible cognitive dissonance as an algorithm in the brain with a very powerful impulse.

Note the existential crisis is a very subliminal impulse of existential pains and Angst which most cannot pin point, but there a strong impulse to do something about it. Religions is the most effective balm to relieve this existential crisis.

Again, according to what sources? Your claims so far seem to only be opinion, based on generalized anecdotes. What is the evidence what you're saying is true? For the majority of human history, religion had no way of dealing with personal crises. There was no promise of an afterlife. The gods routinely ignore mortals.
I have researched deeply into religions and spirituality.
You have think widely and deeply, you will note the main focus of all the mainstream religions are related to eschatology and the impulse to deal with inevitable mortality.

This doesn't follow, since you haven't substantiated the claims you made above.
Now that I have substantiated my claims,
therefore the majority of humanity need religions to relieve the existential pains and Angst.


Still, on what basis?
The Abrahamic religions [Judaism, Christianity, Islam] which promise instant salvation upon surrender and believe is the more effective group of religions to deal with the existential crisis at present.
This promise is represented by the verses in their holy texts.
In the case of Christianity, note John 3:16.
In the Quran the promise of paradise with eternal life [72 virgins for some] is very prevalent among the 6236 verses of the Quran. Appx 30% of the verses are related to Eschatology.


"Inclusive" means "open". I think you mean "exclusive", correct?
Yes, it was an error, I meant "exclusive"

Either way, this is a very poor representation of Judaism. For one, you're lumping all denominations together. More conservative ones do typically discourage converts, but this is only because they believe Gentiles don't need to follow the Torah. More progressive denominations are fully open to Gentiles joining them, but again not out of a need to follow the Torah. Even if we accept your initial claim as true (which I am doubtful about), your misrepresentation of Judaism doesn't really make your point.
It is in general, that is why there are less than 10 million Jews adopting Judaism around the world at present out of 7 billion.


This maxim is not unique to Christianity. It is found in religions older than Christianity. Judaism, of course, has the commandment to "love your neighbor", which specifically includes the instruction "you shall not hate anyone". The concept is found in many other religions, as well, which shows the desire to maintain peace with everyone in a person's community is a basic human need expressed across many cultures. This means it has nothing to do with the validity of any religion.
Yes almost all religions promote peace at the fundamental level.

However, by its holy text -Quran, Islam is the only religion that do not promote peace to non-Muslims.

What's worse, however, is the teaching originates in Christianity with Jesus in the Q source. This source is highly apocalyptic, promising punishment on people who don't follow Jesus or God. Hanging the threat of torment over everyone to compel them to "love others" is necessarily going to result in a very warped idea of love. The apocalyptic context of Jesus' teaching also casts it in a similar light Daniel's "wise" and the DSS's community, who believed in pacifism only because they expected God would unleash punishment on their enemies. Ideologies are hardly "loving" if the underlying assumption behind that love is "you'll get yours".
The Gospel is the main authority of Christianity. Others in the Bible are only supporting texts.
That Revelation is part of the Gospel is contentious and disputable.

Even then, what is the worst, the religion, i.e. Islam that advocates warring and killing non-Muslim now or Christianity's final days which we do not know when it will happen or even if it will ever happened [given non-theists and majority non-Christians do not agree with that]


The one thing you hold up as the uniquely defining trait of Christianity is anything but.
My focus is to contrast Christianity and Islam in this case.

Christianity is much the same. Christianity's love and pacifism is conditional. When the apocalypse unfolds, love and pacifism are lifted. Revelation 19 depicts Jesus and his followers as a militant king and his army, wiping out their enemies and feeding their corpses to scavenger birds. This messianic war scene is found across literature from the time, so interpretations that try to soften the violence of the scene are not justifiable.

Christianity is violent in its foundation.
Note my point above, Revelation is contentious and disputable as not belong to the Gospel and Amargeddon is likely to be an impossibility from the non-Christians point of view.

As you can see, I disagree with your conclusion, because I disagree with almost every point you make. Your starting premise seems to be an idea that you invented from anecdotal evidence. You badly misrepresent Judaism. You also miss how the eschatological context of Christianity subverts its pacifism.
I have counter your points, explain and supported my premises above.

Note there are more as the subject can be very deep, wide and complex.
 
Upvote 0

Joyousperson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 1, 2019
619
102
48
Beijing
✟48,243.00
Country
China
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Married
I guess first you need to define what your meaning by "existential crisis".
As explained above, here it is again;

The existential crisis normally as presented in psychology is the following;
What Is An Existential Crisis And How Can It Be Resolved? | Betterhelp

What Is An Existential Crisis And How Can It Be Resolved?
So, what kinds of existential crises are there?
Different psychology writers have identified 4 or 5 existential givens that we all share. Each of these givens can be the source of existential dread, existential anxiety, or even existential despair. By resolving these dilemmas, you can move past your existential crisis.

2. Death And Limitation
You can't choose whether to die or not. You can't choose to be limitless; no one is. What you can do is choose whether to acknowledge death and limitation psychologically. It would be too hard to be constantly aware that your life's journey will end in death. At the same time, the acknowledgment of death can help you live more fully now.​

From the above, there are 4-5 existential givens, and my focus here is the one related to death, i.e. the perceived eternal death, not wanting to die versus the yearning for eternal life. This generate a terrible cognitive dissonance as an algorithm in the brain with a very powerful impulse.

Note the existential crisis is a very subliminal impulse of existential pains and Angst which most cannot pin point, but there a strong impulse to do something about it. Religions is the most effective balm to relieve this existential crisis.


These past 2000 plus years the monotheistic religions have been the source of some of the worst human horror upon human the world has seen. Talk about "existential crisis"!!
You are conflating different variables here.
As I had argued you must separate the believers from the ideology.

The only monontheistic religion that had killed millions [up to 270 million] since it first emerged is Islam.
Where Christians, Buddhists, who killed, it has nothing to do with Christianity and Buddhism respectively.

Your understanding of animalism is simplistic at best. Ignorance at worse. And your completely ignoring the depth and breath of family/community support in those cultures. From my perspective the monotheistic religions are a mighty step backwards.
Don't condemn until you have define what you meant by 'animalism'.
If I not am mistaken, the animalism* [I take it as animism] referred here was those that emerged before religions in general. I am not sure if animalism is a religion. Note 'animism'

Animism (from Latin anima, "breath, spirit, life")[1][2] is the religious belief that objects, places and creatures all possess a distinct spiritual essence.[3][4][5][6] Potentially, animism perceives all things—animals, plants, rocks, rivers, weather systems, human handiwork and perhaps even words—as animated and alive. Animism is used in the anthropology of religion as a term for the belief system of many indigenous peoples,[7] especially in contrast to the relatively more recent development of organised religions

I'd argue that the monotheistic religions are less sophisticated, less open to the senses of the body to Living Nature, less open to the mystery, less open to the Divine within those of other belief, less open to the needs of Humanity, less open to the wholeness of God, and less open to the subjective perceptional activity of reciprocity we have with this Creation as we can see in the desecration we have bestowed on the Earth. And way more apt towards One True Wayism which in and of itself has generated huge amounts of existential crisis.
I had not insisted monotheistic religions are the most effective approaches to deal with the existential crisis.
I had stated the monotheistic religions are more advanced than the polytheistic religions and animism. Christianity as a monotheistic religion is the most optimal religion at this present age.
The monotheistic religion of Islam posed a serious threat to humanity and it has the potential to exterminate the human species re the use of WMDs.

I have mentioned there are religions that are more advanced and effective than the monotheistic religions, e.g. Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism and other spiritual-psychological-based religions.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
You didn't ask me but if I'm picking a few out of thin air: the Exodus story, the Virgin birth, the resurrection, Moses tapping the rocks for water, Jonah and the Whale.
A liberal Christian might say those things are unnecessary features of Christianity. It isn't clear to me what liberal Christians consider to be essential features. Even the historicity of the bodily Resurrection probably isn't essential for liberal Christians.

That is what has made exiting Christianity so complicated for me. What is Christianity? Everybody has a different definition. It's like the old game "whack a mole". I whack the Nativity narratives, but some other version of Christianity pops up out of another hole in the ground.
 
Upvote 0

Joyousperson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 1, 2019
619
102
48
Beijing
✟48,243.00
Country
China
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Married
A liberal Christian might say those things are unnecessary features of Christianity. It isn't clear to me what liberal Christians consider to be essential features. Even the historicity of the bodily Resurrection probably isn't essential for liberal Christians.

That is what has made exiting Christianity so complicated for me. What is Christianity? Everybody has a different definition. It's like the old game "whack a mole". I whack the Nativity narratives, but some other version of Christianity pops up out of another hole in the ground.
What is Christianity can be defined objectively.

Note the essential elements supporting Christianity per se;

1. God - the Abrahamic God
2. Jesus Christ - the critical element, weight = 40%.
3. The Gospel of Jesus Christ from God = 30%
4. John 3:16 and the likes which offer a promise of salvation
5. The Christian via a personal covenant with God.
6. The supporting text, OT, Epistles and Acts.​

The above are the essential essence and whatever other features related to Christianity are merely the external forms to the above. All the doctrines of Christianity are contained within the Gospel.

The Nicene Creed, the Apostles' creed are derived from the doctrines within the Gospel [3].

Jesus Christ is the most critical element and carry a weightage of 40% in the case of Christianity. The Gospel of Jesus is the other critical element. Without the above, the religion is just another theistic religion by any other name.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Zoness

667, neighbor of the beast
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2008
8,384
1,654
Illinois
✟468,399.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
A liberal Christian might say those things are unnecessary features of Christianity. It isn't clear to me what liberal Christians consider to be essential features. Even the historicity of the bodily Resurrection probably isn't essential for liberal Christians.

That is what has made exiting Christianity so complicated for me. What is Christianity? Everybody has a different definition. It's like the old game "whack a mole". I whack the Nativity narratives, but some other version of Christianity pops up out of another hole in the ground.

I respect lots of liberal Christians but it has made it harder to engage in good faith since the majority of my dealings are with right wing evangelicals. I think all you're left with is an ethical system which isn't all bad but personally I'd pick something a little more interesting if we're rejecting the supernatural elements.

But the supernatural elements are a big problem in terms of believability, aside from the implications of the "logic" of the resurrection (that is, satisfying the tastes of a demanding god who is also the god being sacrificed).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clizby WampusCat

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2019
3,657
892
54
Texas
✟109,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I like Matt Dillahunty's response to this question and is along the lines of I don't know but God should know what evidence I would need to convince me of his existence.

We don't choose our beliefs and I have yet to be convinced by any evidence I have seen that a god exists. If there is sufficient evidence that convinces me a god exists then I would have no choice but believe. If god wants me to believe he could provide the evidence until then I will maintain my unbelief.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟168,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
Do you think you could pinpoint a particular idea that is unbelievable? In other words, could you say "I can't believe X, and Christianity requires X."
A personal, supernatural deity that interferes with reality by miraculous means and wants us to follow a code of conduct imparted to an iron age civilisation. Also, the notion that morality is not a social, intersubjective process but a metaphysical, authoritarian dictum where even minor infractions spell death and damnation for anyone who doesn't exploit a loophole smartly designed by said deity.
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
19,242
2,829
Oregon
✟731,565.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
What is Christianity can be defined objectively.
I'm not here to argue against the objective definition of Christianity. I do understand that way of approaching religion is important to a lot of people. But I have to take a whole different "subjective" approach towards religion. One where God becomes animated by Life and the Mystery. And where God becomes alive and vibrant in people and in how people make God a reality in their lives. Yes, Christianity can be objectively defined. But there's no way to do the same with Christ. Which pretty much explains why I believe that first on one hand we have Christ, and on the other we have the religion called Christianity...and that it's only on occasion that they cross paths.
 
Upvote 0

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
I'm not here to argue against the objective definition of Christianity. I do understand that way of approaching religion is important to a lot of people. But I have to take a whole different "subjective" approach towards religion. One where God becomes animated by Life and the Mystery. And where God becomes alive and vibrant in people and in how people make God a reality in their lives. Yes, Christianity can be objectively defined. But there's no way to do the same with Christ. Which pretty much explains why I believe that first on one hand we have Christ, and on the other we have the religion called Christianity...and that it's only on occasion that they cross paths.
How do you know that what you experience is actually God as opposed to merely a state of mind? I have a DVD that inspires me from the Self Realization Fellowship. I agree with much of what they say, but I am skeptical that they actually experience God through their spiritual disciplines (kriya yoga, love of God, etc.). I am sure they experience a blissful state of mind, but how can anybody know if that state of mind is an actual experience of God?
 
Upvote 0

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
19,242
2,829
Oregon
✟731,565.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
How do you know that what you experience is actually God as opposed to merely a state of mind?
That's a question from an objective perspective and I get why it's being asked in that way. It's how we in the west generally perceive things. What I was hoping to do was to point out the subjective aspect of knowing. And in welcoming personal revelation these days for myself it seems to be in the exploration of the Life Force that is within all of Creation. It's a mystical exploration of that sort of thing. Many Christian Mystics point towards it. Yes, its very subjective...which drives the objective proof crowd crazy. But to answer more directly, I don't know what else to call this presence of that Life Force I pointed towards that is "experienced" as whole, united and One with all there is, other than God. Though in thinking about it, I often do use the word "Divine" because of the way it shines and strikes me when I see it.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cloudyday2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

cloudyday2

Generic Theist
Site Supporter
Jul 10, 2012
7,381
2,352
✟568,802.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
That's a question from an objective perspective and I get why it's being asked in that way. It's how we in the west generally perceive things. What I was hoping to do was to point out the subjective aspect of knowing. And in welcoming personal revelation these days for myself it seems to be in the exploration of the Life Force that is within all of Creation. It's a mystical exploration of that sort of thing. Many Christian Mystics point towards it. Yes, its very subjective...which drives the objective proof crowd crazy. But to answer more directly, I don't know what else to call this presence of that Life Force I pointed towards that is "experienced" as whole, united and One with all there is, other than God. Though in thinking about it, I often do use the word "Divine" because of the way it shines and strikes me when I see it.
This example probably wouldn't satisfy the most skeptical people, but my priest told me a story about seeing the remains of a bad car accident and then being spiritually guided to the correct hospital and the correct room where he was able to minister to the religious needs of one of the victims. An example like that seems to be evidence that my priest's spirituality was not merely a state of mind within the boundaries of his own head. The only problem with this example is that my priest was a casual and habitual liar, so if he didn't completely fabricate the experience then he almost certainly embellished it for effect.

There are lots of stories from Christians about the Holy Spirit giving a "word of knowledge" that is helpful to some other person and would have been an unlikely guess. Of course it isn't persuasive unless you are one of the participants or you know and trust one of the participants.

Most of my experiences of God could have been nothing but psychological.
 
Upvote 0

Joyousperson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 1, 2019
619
102
48
Beijing
✟48,243.00
Country
China
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Married
I'm not here to argue against the objective definition of Christianity. I do understand that way of approaching religion is important to a lot of people. But I have to take a whole different "subjective" approach towards religion. One where God becomes animated by Life and the Mystery. And where God becomes alive and vibrant in people and in how people make God a reality in their lives.
Philosophically and rationally, one must take always has an objective view of anything, else, anything goes.

As such we must have an objective view of the "subjective approach toward religion and God"
Theism itself is subjective, i.e. it is grounded on faith, i.e. belief without proof nor justifiable reasons.

However we can have an objective study of theism from a third party point of view. Example why people believe in a God when there is no convincing universal objective evidences.

Yes, Christianity can be objectively defined. But there's no way to do the same with Christ. Which pretty much explains why I believe that first on one hand we have Christ, and on the other we have the religion called Christianity...and that it's only on occasion that they cross paths.
If Christianity can be objectively defined and grounded on the Gospel, then we can defined Jesus Christ objective as reported by the Apostles in the Gospel.
In this case, the objectivity is confined and conditioned by the Gospel.

Note objectivity is never absolute, but always conditioned upon a framework and system, in this case, the framework and system of Christianity and its conditions.

Whatever claims as objective to Christianity may not be objective if tested under the Scientific or Philosophical Framework and System.
 
Upvote 0

Joyousperson

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
May 1, 2019
619
102
48
Beijing
✟48,243.00
Country
China
Faith
Freethinker
Marital Status
Married
That's a question from an objective perspective and I get why it's being asked in that way. It's how we in the west generally perceive things. What I was hoping to do was to point out the subjective aspect of knowing. And in welcoming personal revelation these days for myself it seems to be in the exploration of the Life Force that is within all of Creation. It's a mystical exploration of that sort of thing. Many Christian Mystics point towards it. Yes, its very subjective...which drives the objective proof crowd crazy. But to answer more directly, I don't know what else to call this presence of that Life Force I pointed towards that is "experienced" as whole, united and One with all there is, other than God. Though in thinking about it, I often do use the word "Divine" because of the way it shines and strikes me when I see it.
You should do extensive research on the subject of
'altered states of consciousness' ASC

Altered state of consciousness - Wikipedia
Altered states of consciousness might have been employed by humans as early as 30,000 years ago.[10]
Mind-altering plants and/or excessive dancing were used to attain an ecstatic or mystic state.[13]
Examples of early religious use of altered states of consciousness are the rites of Dionysos and the Eleusinian Mysteries,[14] as well as Yoga and Meditation.[10]
Followers of various shamanic traditions "enter altered states of consciousness in order to serve their community."[14]
Terence McKenna has suggested that the use of psychedelic mushrooms in prehistoric times has led to the "evolution of human language and symbol use".[15]
Some theorists propose that mind-altering substances, such as Soma, might have pushed the formation of some of the world's main religions.​


Note the emergence of an ASC via the following;
The above are various reasons why people experienced ASC and note even Psychosis;

Another pathological cause is psychosis, otherwise known as a psychotic episode. In order to comprehend psychosis, it is important to determine what symptoms it implies. Psychotic episodes often Include delusions, paranoia, derealization, depersonalization, and hallucinations
Therefore if anyone have had any 'mystical' or supposedly divine experiences, it would be wise to find out the root cause which could be any of the above.

Note this guy thought he experienced God but was found to be suffering from epilepsy [4.3.2] and was cured via psychiatry.
In this video Dr. Ramanchandran explained the sense of God, oneness, the divine can be traced to temporal epilepsy in many cases.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dlamberth

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2003
19,242
2,829
Oregon
✟731,565.00
Faith
Other Religion
Politics
US-Others
Therefore if anyone have had any 'mystical' or supposedly divine experiences, it would be wise to find out the root cause which could be any of the above.
I have no problem with the idea that the mystical experience is basic to the Human experience. So from that perspective, the root cause I'd say is Human consciousness.
 
Upvote 0