How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

mkgal1 · Jul 11, 2019

DavidPT said:
If satan was cast out around the time of the cross, which seems reasonable to me, where does this leave any room for him being bound a thousand years?

He was cast out of heaven (depicting the fact that he doesn't belong in heaven).

Why does this NOT "leave any room for him being bound a thousand years" to you?

DavidPT · Jul 11, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Satan is a spirit - so it's not literal chains and pits that restrain him....that's metaphorical and symbolic language.

That shouldn't matter though, should it? It's how he is being depicted that counts. Why use real world imagery, where if something similar happened in the real world, such as someone being bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then locked up, this person would be cut off from the outside world entirely? satan's condition has to match with the imagery being used to describe the situation he finds himself in.

Let me try another perspective. Let's consider the following.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Let's assume we all agree this happens at the 2nd coming. And let's also assume the entire planet is literally ablaze at the time, as some Amils typically teach. Why then use imagery of feasting birds when it would be nonsensical, that if the planet were on fire, that birds would be circling in order to feast on the remains below? It doesn't matter whether the feasting birds are literal or not, what matters is, if the entire planet were literally ablaze, there would be no feasting birds, period. They would be right down there dead with them eventually.

What about Noah's flood? A lot of dead bodies to feast on there for certain. I wonder how many fowls were trying to feast on people and animals being swept away in the flood? Instead, these fowls would have eventually joined them below at some point. But not to feast on them, but to be swept away in the flood as well.

My point then is this. Whenever real world imagery is used, the situation has to match the imagery used.

DavidPT · Jul 11, 2019

mkgal1 said:
He was cast out of heaven (depicting the fact that he doesn't belong in heaven).

Why does this NOT "leave any room for him being bound a thousand years" to you?

The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away. Instead he finds himself setting out to persecute the woman that brought forth the manchild, thus he is loose at the time.

mkgal1 · Jul 11, 2019

DavidPT said:
It's how he is being depicted that counts. Why use real world imagery, where if something similar happened in the real world, such as someone being bound with a chain, then cast into a pit, then locked up, this person would be cut off from the outside world entirely?

That's YOUR presumption that you are imposing on the text. The text merely states that satan was bound specifically from deceiving the nations.

DavidPT said:
Whenever real world imagery is used, the situation has to match the imagery used.

I don't disagree with that.

Erik Nelson · Jul 11, 2019

Mark51 said:
The reference to the 42-months at revelation 13:5 is not referring to Satan. It refers to the "wild Beast" the "dragon [Satan]...gave the authority to...."

At Matthew 4:8, 9, Satan claimed to have authority over the kingdoms of the world. Jesus did not dispute this.-Compare 5:19; John 14:30; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 1 John 2:15-17.

Satan was not "bound" in the past and is not bound now because the "great tribulation" has not come to pass nor has the resurrection begun.

or the millennium has already come and gone and it's now the season of Gog and Magog

mkgal1 · Jul 11, 2019

DavidPT said:
The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away. Instead he finds himself setting out to persecute the woman that brought forth the manchild, thus he is loose at the time.

I'm not decided yet as to who or what I believe about the dragon in Revelation 12 (I realize that satan is definitely - at least - influencing whomever it is....but ISTM it could be pagan Rome, influenced by satan and not merely satan alone).

Here are a few commentaries:

Verse 4: In the first half of verse 4, speaking of the dragon with seven heads and 10 horns, we read:

“His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.”

There is reason to believe that these “stars” are angels. In Revelation 1:20, stars are seen as angels: “…The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches…” Here in verse 4, the dragon is able to throw stars to the earth, but in verses 9-12 we see that “the great dragon…that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” would himself be cast out of heaven to the earth, along with his angels.

Some believe that verse 4a is parallel to Jude 6:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.”

Others see a parallel to Daniel 8:10, which speaks of “a little horn” (Antiochus Ephiphanes, a Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 – 164 BC):

“And out of one of [the four horns] came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them…” (Daniel 8:10-11).

Albert Barnes, in his 1834 commentary on Revelation 12, took note of this parallel and wrote the following:

“The main idea here undoubtedly is that of power, and the object of John is to show that the power of the dragon was as if it extended to the stars, and as if it dragged down a third part of them to the earth, or swept them away with its tail, leaving two-thirds unaffected. A power that would sweep them all away would be universal; a power that would sweep away one-third only would represent a dominion of that extent only… Suppose, then, that the dragon here was designed to represent the Roman pagan power; suppose that it referred to that power about to engage in the work of persecution, and at a time when the church was about to be greatly enlarged, and to fill the world; …the conditions here referred to would be fulfilled…

The second half of verse 4 may be a reference to Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus by enforcing the death of all Hebrew children below age 2:

“And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.”

In Matthew 2:1-18 we read about the wise men from the east who came to Jerusalem asking about the birth of the King of the Jews (verses 1-2). This troubled Herod, who quizzed the chief priests and scribes and found out that, according to Micah 5:2, the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (verses 3-6). He instructed the wise men to find the Child, Jesus, and to let him know where he was (verses 7-8). However, the wise men were warned in a dream not to return to Herod (verse 12), and Herod, when he discovered that they had deceived him, put to death all children below the age of two throughout Bethlehem and its districts (verses 16-18). Joseph and Mary had already been warned in a dream to take Jesus and flee to Egypt (verses 13-15). ~ Revelation Chapter 12

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
The text indicates that an angel comes down from heaven, then casts him into the BP. Where would the angel be coming down to if not the earth? If the angel is coming down to the earth, wouldn't it be because that is where satan would currently be residing? But according to Revelation 12, when satan sees he has been cast to the earth, he doesn't find himself cast into the pit, then locked away. Instead he finds himself setting out to persecute the woman that brought forth the manchild, thus he is loose at the time.

Mat 12:26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat_12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Did the kingdom of God come in verse 28 above, and is it connected to binding?

.

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Mat 12:26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Mat_12:29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

Did the kingdom of God come in verse 28 above, and is it connected to binding?

.

What Jesus said and did there was something already a reality before He went to the cross. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm thinking Amils typically have satan being bound around the time of the cross, or at least soon after. Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I'm not decided yet as to who or what I believe about the dragon in Revelation 12 (I realize that satan is definitely - at least - influencing whomever it is....but ISTM it could be pagan Rome, influenced by satan and not merely satan alone).

Here are a few commentaries:

Verse 4: In the first half of verse 4, speaking of the dragon with seven heads and 10 horns, we read:

“His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.”

There is reason to believe that these “stars” are angels. In Revelation 1:20, stars are seen as angels: “…The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches…” Here in verse 4, the dragon is able to throw stars to the earth, but in verses 9-12 we see that “the great dragon…that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan” would himself be cast out of heaven to the earth, along with his angels.

Some believe that verse 4a is parallel to Jude 6:

“And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.”

Others see a parallel to Daniel 8:10, which speaks of “a little horn” (Antiochus Ephiphanes, a Greek king of the Seleucid Empire from 175 – 164 BC):

“And out of one of [the four horns] came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them…” (Daniel 8:10-11).

Albert Barnes, in his 1834 commentary on Revelation 12, took note of this parallel and wrote the following:

“The main idea here undoubtedly is that of power, and the object of John is to show that the power of the dragon was as if it extended to the stars, and as if it dragged down a third part of them to the earth, or swept them away with its tail, leaving two-thirds unaffected. A power that would sweep them all away would be universal; a power that would sweep away one-third only would represent a dominion of that extent only… Suppose, then, that the dragon here was designed to represent the Roman pagan power; suppose that it referred to that power about to engage in the work of persecution, and at a time when the church was about to be greatly enlarged, and to fill the world; …the conditions here referred to would be fulfilled…

The second half of verse 4 may be a reference to Herod’s attempt to kill Jesus by enforcing the death of all Hebrew children below age 2:

“And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.”

In Matthew 2:1-18 we read about the wise men from the east who came to Jerusalem asking about the birth of the King of the Jews (verses 1-2). This troubled Herod, who quizzed the chief priests and scribes and found out that, according to Micah 5:2, the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (verses 3-6). He instructed the wise men to find the Child, Jesus, and to let him know where he was (verses 7-8). However, the wise men were warned in a dream not to return to Herod (verse 12), and Herod, when he discovered that they had deceived him, put to death all children below the age of two throughout Bethlehem and its districts (verses 16-18). Joseph and Mary had already been warned in a dream to take Jesus and flee to Egypt (verses 13-15). ~ Revelation Chapter 12

Some of what you submitted above I can see making a little sense. Some of it I can't.

Let me try the following again. I had to delete this initially because I messed up the link I was trying to submit.

I have read in the past something similar to the following link I found yesterday via Google. The following is a pdf, and that I tend to find the conclusions very interesting. I may currently still be a hardcore Premil, yet I'm not closedminded to other possibilities.

THE PARALLEL LITERARY STRUCTURE OF REVELATION 12

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

mkgal1 said:
This is what part of Mark 3 that's been pointed out:

Mark 2:27 ~ No one gets into the house of a strong person and steals anything without first tying up the strong person. Only then can the house be burglarized.

The demon possessed "belonged" to satan ("possessed" implies ownership). Jesus and His disciples were able to "steal them away" and free them from satan's grip when they cast out the demons from these people. Thus......the "strong person" (meaning - satan) had to have been tied up (bound) at the time. I see this as a foreshadow of what Jesus was going to complete on the cross.

DavidPT said:
What Jesus said and did there was something already a reality before He went to the cross. Unless I'm mistaken, I'm thinking Amils typically have satan being bound around the time of the cross, or at least soon after. Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?

Events in the future often cast shadows in the present. Jesus revealed this often - He demonstrated resurrection through Lazarus prior to His own resurrection, but we don't consider Lazarus' the first resurrection.

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
Why use a passage before satan is allegedly bound according to Amil, to allegedly support satan's binding?

Because the casting out of Satan's minions demonstrates Christ's power over Satan, which will be completed at Calvary.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

.

Erik Nelson · Jul 12, 2019

Rev 18-20 must be chronological

Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast
First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection

One cannot possibly under any stretch of any logical reasonable imagination re-arrange or re-order that sequence of events, e.g. Christ can't defeat the Beast before the Beast defeats Babylon, the 2nd Resurrection can't precede the 1st, etc.

Rev 18-20 must be literal linear chronological

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
Rev 18-20 must be chronological

Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast
First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection

One cannot possibly under any stretch of any logical reasonable imagination re-arrange or re-order that sequence of events, e.g. Christ can't defeat the Beast before the Beast defeats Babylon, the 2nd Resurrection can't precede the 1st, etc.

Rev 18-20 must be literal linear chronological

What's interesting, this is pretty much what Premils conclude, yet you don't appear to be Premil though.

Premil places the former in this age---and the latter at the end of this age.

Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast

Premil places all of the following after the end of this age

First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection

Erik Nelson · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
What's interesting, this is pretty much what Premils conclude, yet you don't appear to be Premil though.

Premil places the former in this age---and the latter at the end of this age.

Beast defeats Babylon
Christ defeats the Beast

Premil places all of the following after the end of this age

First Resurrection --> Millennium --> 2nd Resurrection

very difficult to wield all these theological terms precisely enough

but I would say I think Premil is pretty obvious -- a clearly Christ-like figure defeats the Beast, which is then how the Saints in the swiftly ensuing Millennium can then reign "with" Christ, b/c Christ is already present, having just defeated the Beast as the "boulder not cut with hands" bowling down the Statue of Daniel

[arguably symbolizing the Church = Rock spiritually defeating = converting the pagan Roman empire = Beast]

however, it may be possible to interpret the Premil 2nd Coming in spiritual terms, whilst reserving a physical bodily 2nd Coming until after the Millennium at the 2nd Resurrection ?

Premil = correct, spiritual Parousia of Christ spiritually coming in power precedes Millennium = 1st Resurrection
Postmil = correct, physical bodily 2C of Christ postdates Millennium = 2nd Resurrection

?

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Because the casting out of Satan's minions demonstrates Christ's power over Satan, which will be completed at Calvary.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

.

But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.

Erik Nelson · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.

bound != destroyed

Satan is "bound" in the M, only to be "loosed" afterwards to deceive thru Gog & Magog

Satan is ultimately destroyed in the LoF

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
however, it may be possible to interpret the Premil 2nd Coming in spiritual terms, whilst reserving a physical bodily 2nd Coming until after the Millennium at the 2nd Resurrection ?

Premil = correct, spiritual Parousia of Christ spiritually coming in power precedes Millennium = 1st Resurrection
Postmil = correct, physical bodily 2C of Christ postdates Millennium = 2nd Resurrection

?

Can you perhaps say all of these things in a different way? I'm not quite following what you are meaning here. In order to know whether I might agree or disagree with what you said, requires that I be on the same page with you first.

BABerean2 · Jul 12, 2019

DavidPT said:
But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.

A mean dog on a long chain is bound in some sense.
However, if you get too close you are in danger.

Satan is not bound in the lake of fire, like a dog on a long chain.
He is done.

Rev_20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

..................................

Satan is only bound in one sense in Revelation chapter 20.

Rev 20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

.......................................

2Pe_2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

.

DavidPT · Jul 12, 2019

Erik Nelson said:
bound != destroyed

Satan is "bound" in the M, only to be "loosed" afterwards to deceive thru Gog & Magog

Satan is ultimately destroyed in the LoF

The way most Premils tend to reason a lot of this, satan deceives through the beast in Revelation 13, before the millennium, then after the millennium, thru Gog & Magog. The way Amils apparently reason these same things, the beast, and Gog and Magog, they are all in the picture at the same time. Premils have the beast already in the LOF when satan is loosed after the thousand years. Amils have the beast still alive and well after the thousand years have finished.

mkgal1 · Jul 12, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Because the casting out of Satan's minions demonstrates Christ's power over Satan, which will be completed at Calvary.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

DavidPT said:
But still though, which seems to be falling on deaf ears, satan isn't bound until his demise in the lof. Assuming Amil, one can't apply his alleged reasons for being bound to that of when he is loosed. When he is loosed, he is no longer bound. This isn't rocket science.

True - but God ALWAYS was more powerful and more sovereign than Satan (which is, what I believe, being demonstrated there). It's God that allows for him to be "loosed". It's not that satan's power overtook God's disarmament of him.

To elaborate - I believe this article articulates it well.....the "battle" between God and Satan:

Quoting from linked article:

Satan, That Ancient Serpent
Who is this serpent? The fullest answer is given in Revelation 12:9: “The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.”

So, the serpent in the garden is the devil (which means slanderer), and Satan (which means accuser), and the deceiver of the whole world. Jesus calls him “the evil one” (Matthew 13:19) and “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11). The Pharisees call him “Beelzebub, the prince of demons” (Matthew 12:24). Paul calls him “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4) and “the prince of the power of the air” (Ephesians 2:2).

That’s the one we meet in Genesis 3. He is already evil, already a deceiver, already a murderer when he appears in the garden of God. In Genesis 3:15, God speaks to the serpent and pronounces judgment on him: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Notice that at first it looks like the warfare will be between two offsprings: “between your offspring and her offspring.” But in the next words something different is said: “He shall bruise your head.” Who is “he”? Answer: the woman’s offspring. Who is “your” (“he shall bruise your head”)? Answer: the serpent himself, not his offspring.

The Crushing of Satan at the Cross
The day is coming, God says, when you (not just your offspring) will be defeated and removed from the earth. The offspring of this woman will crush you (see Romans 16:20 and Hebrews 2:14). That decisive blow was struck by the perfect offspring of the woman, Jesus Christ, when He died on the cross. This is one of the reasons why the eternal Son of God had to become a man—because it was the offspring of the woman who would crush Satan.

Colossians 2:14–15 describes what God did for those who trust His Son, when Christ died on the cross: “[The record of debt that stood against us] he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.”

When Christ died for our sins, Satan was disarmed and defeated. The one eternally destructive weapon that he had was stripped from his hand, namely, his accusation before God that we are guilty and should perish with him. When Christ died, that accusation was nullified. All those who entrust themselves to Christ will never perish. Satan cannot separate them from the love of God in Christ (Romans 8:37–39).

The little books of Jude and 2 Peter in the New Testament give us clues as to what happened. Jude 1:6 says, “The angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day.” And 2 Peter 2:4 says, “God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment.”

It appears then that once there was a host of holy angels. And some of them, including Satan, “sinned,” or as Jude 1:6 says, “did not stay within their own position of authority.” In other words, the sin was a kind of insurrection. A desire for more power and more authority than they were appointed by God and under God. So Satan originates as a created angel who, with other angels, rebel against God, reject Him as their all-satisfying king and joy, and set out on a course of self-exaltation and presumed self-determination. They do not want to be subordinate. They do not want to be sent by God to serve others (Hebrews 1:14). They want to have authority over themselves and exalt themselves above God.

Why would a perfectly holy angel in God’s infinitely beautiful presence use his free will to suddenly hate God?

The Biblical Approach
My approach to answering the question of how to think about the origin of Satan’s sin is to read the whole Bible with the question: How does God relate to Satan’s will? Is God helpless before the will of evil powers? Is there a power outside Himself that limits His rule over them? Or is God presented throughout the Bible as having the right and the power to restrain Satan anytime He pleases? And if so, why doesn’t He just destroy him?

God’s Sovereign Sway over Satan
Though Satan is called “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31), Daniel 4:17 says, “The Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whom he wishes.” And Psalm 33:10 says, “The Lord nullifies the counsel of the nations; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation.” ~ The Fall of Satan and the Victory of Christ

**I apologize for the wall o'text, but I couldn't figure out what to edit out. It all seems important to me.

How can satan be already bound without contradicting Revelation 12?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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