The Trinity

Yekcidmij said:

Are your body, soul and spirit 3 persons? No. So you aren't tri-personal.

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And yet, modern mysticism tries to say our Body, Soul and Spirit can travel separately.

Interesting how people try to be like God, isn’t it?

Also... When we die, our Spirit returns to Him Who Gave it.

Our Body returns to Dust when we die.

Our Soul dwells in Sheol, or Heaven... when we die.

Here’s a real zinger... is your Soul, Spirit and Body perfectly in Harmony at all times? Romans 7

Are we God? No

Grip Docility said:

And yet, modern mysticism tries to say our Body, Soul and Spirit can travel separately.

Interesting how people try to be like God, isn’t it?

Also... When we die, our Spirit returns to Him Who Gave it.

Our Body returns to Dust when we die.

Our Soul dwells in Sheol, or Heaven... when we die.

Here’s a real zinger... is your Soul, Spirit and Body perfectly in Harmony at all times? Romans 7

Are we God? No

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I'm not sure how this addresses my objection that your body, soul and spirit aren't three persons.

Grip Docility said:

I’ll just say it. We have a Body, Spirit and Soul.

The Body isn’t the Spirit.
The Spirit isn’t the Soul.
The Soul isn’t the Body.

Is my Spirit Unique and Me? Yes
Is my Body Unique and Me? Yes
Is my Soul Unique and Me? Yes

When someone sees my Body, do I reveal my Spirit and Soul? Yup

Can people “see” my Spirit and Soul, by seeing my Body act accordingly? Yup

Does anyone know my Spirit and Soul but God and Myself? Nope

Are my three portions of being perfectly intertwined as One? Yup.

Am I as perfectly 1 as God is PERFECTLY ONE? Nope

What is my point? Meh... I don’t have one. People can go ahead and put their stones down.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 ; Genesis 1:27

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Yekcidmij said:

Are your body, soul and spirit 3 persons? No. So you aren't tri-personal.

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Grip Docility said:

And yet, modern mysticism tries to say our Body, Soul and Spirit can travel separately.

Interesting how people try to be like God, isn’t it?

Also... When we die, our Spirit returns to Him Who Gave it.

Our Body returns to Dust when we die.

Our Soul dwells in Sheol, or Heaven... when we die.

Here’s a real zinger... is your Soul, Spirit and Body perfectly in Harmony at all times? Romans 7

Are we God? No

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Yekcidmij said:

I'm not sure how this addresses my objection that your body, soul and spirit aren't three persons.

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I never said “our” Body, Soul and Spirit are three persons. The post I responded to insinuated an objection to content I never implied.

The objection to my post was made in response to an idea I never posted.

Grip Docility said:

I never said our Body, Soul and Spirit are three persons. The post I responded to insinuated an objection to content I never implied.

The objection to my post was made in response to an idea I never posted.

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Ok, I thought you were trying to draw an analogy to the Trinity from your body, soul and spirit.

Yekcidmij said:

Ok, I thought you were trying to draw an analogy to the Trinity from your body, soul and spirit.

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I was drawing a biblical analogy that implies our very being that is comprised of Body, Mind/Spirit and Soul... and is made in the “Image” of God... is a solid way to strike an analogy of the Trinity.

I was not implying that we are God or Like God. Again, the objection is an implied objection to something that was never implied.

brightlights said:

Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller. In their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.

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So, was Jesus wrong when he said:

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

The Righterzpen said:

Well I suppose if we look at "persons" though the lens of purposes they serve; we could say liquid, solid and vapor all serve different purposes in our environment. And that makes sense because I don't know if we define the persons of the Trinity beyond their purposes. You follow me?

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H20 is a Liquid (Water), Soild (Ice) and Vapor (Steam) as well I'm one too- I'm daughter, wife, and mother.

1213 said:

So, was Jesus wrong when he said:

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

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God is over Christ - Christ is over man - Man is over Women.
So no Jesus was not wrong.

Doer not just hearer said:

God is over Christ - Christ is over man - Man is over Women.
So no Jesus was not wrong.

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Except that Christ actually IS God, so he certainly can't be "over" himself.....

James Murphy said:

Except that Christ actually IS God, so he certainly can't be "over" himself.....

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(God speaking to Moses)
Deuteronomy 18:17-18 - And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words into his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

1 Timothy 2:5 -For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

John 7:16 -Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

Doer not just hearer said:

(God speaking to Moses)
Deuteronomy 18:17-18 - And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words into his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

1 Timothy 2:5 -For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

John 7:16 -Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

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Philippians 2 is the key to the mystery.

The Father and Son are One.

The Father is not the Son, but... to have seen the Son is to have Seen the Father.

Consider these verses ... Isaiah 43:11 ; Luke 2:11

The “subordination” Of The Son was a willing act of the Son. In other words, the Son chose to present Himself Subordinate to the Father. Make no mistake, though... He’s FULLY EQUAL to the Father.... always has been, always will be.

1213 said:

So, was Jesus wrong when he said:

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

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Philippians 2:8-11 is the key, here.

He came as a servant unto mankind.

But... make no mistake... Colossians 2:9

Doer not just hearer said:

H20 is a Liquid (Water), Soild (Ice) and Vapor (Steam) as well I'm one too- I'm daughter, wife, and mother.

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That looks like modalism. You're not describing yourself as tri-personal.

The incarnation put Jesus in a "state of subordination" on account of his human nature. This was a decision He made in eternity for the sake of being the proper substitute (the last Adam). The point at becoming subordinate had to do with being incarnated in the likeness of Adam who'd been created in Christ's image. He could not have had an advantage over Adam and still have been the proper substitute. So Jesus became subject to all that all the rest of humanity is subject too.

On the Divine side:

A created entity obviously can not be omnipresent. We see from the Scripture Jesus in the flesh was not omniscient. He was not immortal, he did die. He did possess the power to perform tasks that superseded the natural laws of the creation, yet he never used that power to his own benefit, nor was it his "responsibility" at that point to "run" the created world in an "administrative" sense.

He obviously at some point in his life came to the realization that he was very different than any other human being. We see this in psalm 139. He knows he was uniquely formed. We also see from psalm 139 that over the course of his life he learned what his purpose was. That psalm tells us the answers to the pondering that Jesus engaged in to determine his purpose came to him in his dreams. (So if you ever wondered what Jesus dreamt about - now you know - LOL.)

Jesus also maintained the authority not to participate in the atonement. Of course this would have meant that no other human born of the first Adam would have been redeemed and therefore if Jesus wanted a people for Himself, he would have to produce them in the flesh. This would have entailed going through the same process Adam had to obtain a wife and then producing children. Jesus eludes to this option in a statement he makes about being a eunuch.

Matthew 19:12
The English translation of the passage looks something like this:
"Some are made eunuchs by nature, some are made eunuchs by men and some make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of God; let him who is able bear it."

The Greek though comes out more like this:
"Some are made eunuchs by nature, some are made eunuchs by men, but one has made himself a eunuch in order to reign in the kingdom of God; by the power of God which restrains him, let him continue in the command."

Now as for the statement of reigning in the kingdom of God; if Jesus were producing children in the flesh, obviously they would all be of the same nature he was and if you are all Divine beings, there is no-one to reign over because you are all equal.

Now the "let him continue in the command". That command hearkens back to Genesis. The first command given to all life was "be fruitful and multiply". And ironically, that command is given right after Eve is created.

So God obviously knowing the fall would happen and death would come to reign in the created world, necessitated the ability of life to be able to reproduce. Yet more importantly, God as the Creator of life bestows the gift upon life to be able to create other life. And He does this because it's the reflection of His goodness as the Creator; thus making the drive of the process what it is. Life wants to "be fruitful and multiply" because it's inherently "hard wired" to desire to do so to that end.

Now obviously the entrance of sin messes this up, so therefore humans are given commands by God that regulate the engagement of said behavior. Interestingly there are examples of monogamy that span the entire animal kingdom. A high percentage of bird species are monogamous. More than 200 mammal species are known to be monogamous; (wolves, beavers, some monkeys, otters, coyotes, fox, penguins, orcas, prairie voles (rodent)) We also see monogamy in fish species, some reptiles and insects. (french angel fish, sea horses, even termites are monogamous.) Then in the insect world there are some that are monogamous by "design". Bee and ant colonies for example produce one queen and one male drone to fertilize the queen. Once she is fertilized, she is fertilized for life and will just continue to lay eggs throughout her lifetime. This I believe is also true in the life cycle of spiders.

So getting back to the middle phrase of the verse in Matthew: "by the power of God that restrains him..." we see apparently Jesus needed restraining from the command to "be fruitful and multiply". We know the restraining was in connection to the ability to reproduce because he was not commanded to be a eunuch. That was a choice he made "in order to reign in the kingdom of God".

On the human side:

So, above example given of Jesus having to actually be restrained by God to contend with his own sex drive (interesting). This is only one aspect that shows us the very reality of God taking on the nature of a created entity. (If you are God the Creator incarnated in a human male, obviously the desire to create other humans would be inherent in the nature of that individual. LOL. It obviously was inherent in Adam, who was created in His image.)

Also though, Jesus obviously had to contend with other aspects of biology. He had to eat. He had to sleep. He had to bathe. He had to use the toilet. He also passed through all the developmental stages that children do. He had to learn to walk and talk and "cultural social skills". He learned how to read and write. He learned carpentry.

We get a very interesting example of human development when Jesus is 12 and runs off to the temple. When Mary and Joseph finally find him and he says to Mary "How is it that you are looking for me, don't you know that I have to be about my Father's business?" Now what we don't get in the English that I believe is in the context of the Greek; is that Joseph is ready to smack him. Technically, Jesus is correct, but because of the stage of development he's at; he does not see the consequences of his actions. (It never dawned in his 12 year old little brain that running off would worry his parents.)

Kids at that age are not capable of thinking abstractly. Everything is "black and white". It's "right or wrong". It isn't until 16, 17, 18 years old that the myleonization of the neurons in the brain occurs, which makes humans solidly able think in terms of abstract considerations of the possible consequences of their actions.

Hormones related to puberty also impact brain development and the way humans are capable of thinking; further accounting for the differences in how adult males and females think. We know from the following verses about Jesus growing in wisdom and physical size, that it's very likely he hadn't even started puberty by 12 years old. Prior to the 20th century and our industrialized food supply, humans generally didn't even start puberty until their mid teens. The average age of mensuration prior to the 20th century was 17, and since boys generally lag girls in onset of puberty by up to 2 years; Jesus was probably about 16 years old before he even started puberty. Puberty takes about 2.5 years to complete in humans and the "development process" to adulthood isn't actually complete until we are about 21 years old.

So yes, there were a lot of factors about becoming a created entity that impacted the existence of the 2nd Person of the Godhead.

Grip Docility said:

Philippians 2:8-11 is the key, here.

He came as a servant unto mankind.

But... make no mistake... Colossians 2:9

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I find what I read in OT and NT when Christ and his Chosen Apostles says to differ from, when people post me "Paul" verses.

Doer not just hearer said:

I find what I read in OT and NT when Christ and his Chosen Apostles says to differ from, when people post me "Paul" verses.

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Do you not count “Paul” Cannon?

The Son asked the Father to glorify Himself.

The Son declares Himself the Great I Am.

John has Jesus Christ declare Himself the Almighty in Revelation.

In Isaiah 43:11, God the Father declares Himself the only Savior, thus binding the Son in Equal unity and Authority to God the Father.

Jesus carries all the Names of YHWH.

Jesus literally translates to YeHoShua... which means YHWH is salvation.

IMO, Even if you discount Paul... Jesus is YHWH by the very Gospels and the OT.

Grip Docility said:

Philippians 2:8-11 is the key, here.

He came as a servant unto mankind.

But... make no mistake... Colossians 2:9

Click to expand...

Doer not just hearer said:

I find what I read in OT and NT when Christ and his Chosen Apostles says to differ from, when people post me "Paul" verses.

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Hi Doer not just hearer, along with what Grip just said, I will admit that 'seems' to be the case sometimes (of course, what was written in Acts & the Epistles is often focused on different things than the Gospels focused on, primarily anyway, which was Jesus and who He is). There are also a number of other differences that I believe begin with the fact that the Gospels were written about the time prior to the Cross, and Acts and the Epistles were written primarily about the time that followed the Cross.

In this case however, Jesus' own words, as well the words of the Apostles in the Gospels, bear out His being both a Servant unto mankind, and God Almighty in the flesh. For instance, Jesus said:

And the Apostle John told us:
--David
p.s. - even soteriologically speaking, I believe that Jesus and St. Paul are more than similar. For instance:

Yekcidmij said:

That looks like modalism. You're not describing yourself as tri-personal.

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I'm one person, there is not 3 of me.

Doer not just hearer said:

I'm one person, there is not 3 of me.

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Do you have a Body?
Do you have a Soul?
Do you have a Spirit?

Is the Body the Soul?
Is the Soul the Spirit?
Is the Spirit the Body?

There’s a point here.