The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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Hillsage

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Funny you should ask.
I do tell her about things I encounter on the forums(s).
Basically, conspiracy theories are only okay if she brings them up.
She's not thrilled with my politics either. But I do bring her to the voting polls.
Funny you didn't answer my other questions too. Waffling? How's witnessing to all the neighborhood going?

AND, is this a conspiracy theory doctrine which you're expecting her to bring up? Or is it a forum encounter you've told her about? Or are you jumping from religion to politics just to lose me from nailing your tail? You know I can't nail snot to a fence post right? ;)

And, also unlike you, my wife gave up trying to drag me to the voting polls. She finally figured out years ago, that the government of God on earth is more important to me, than the government of man. And Viet Nam also helped a lot in making that decision.
 
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Hillsage

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Patience is one thing. Wisdom of discernment is another. There is a time to reap and a time to sow. A time to teach and preach and a time to dust off your feet and move on.

Steve cannot explain why what he says is the case. It is an absolute, not an emerging process to be patient about.
And you are 'how old'? Chronologically and Christ-ologically?
 
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Saint Steven

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Funny you didn't answer my other questions too. Waffling? How's witnessing to all the neighborhood going?

AND, is this a conspiracy theory doctrine which you're expecting her to bring up? Or is it a forum encounter you've told her about? Or are you jumping from religion to politics just to lose me from nailing your tail? You know I can't nail snot to a fence post right? ;)

And, also unlike you, my wife gave up trying to drag me to the voting polls. She finally figured out years ago, that the government of God on earth is more important to me, than the government of man. And Viet Nam also helped a lot in making that decision.
I thought all your house guests had left.
I guess the only thing more irritating than house guests is not getting your questions answered.

So, is that my assignment? To "witness" to everyone in "my neighborhood"?
What does that even mean? Going door-to-door handing out church literature? Or running around the block screaming "You're all going to hell!" at 3AM in the morning? Or what?

And you expect me to convince my wife about this when I am not even convinced?

And is it not your civic duty to get out and vote? Do you think you are off the hook since you are a military vet? If you don't vote you shouldn't complain.

Is that "snotty" enough, or can you still nail me to a fence post?
If so, I'll be in good company. Jesus was nailed to one. (or two)
 
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Hillsage

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I thought all your house guests had left.
I guess the only thing more irritating than house guests is not getting your questions answered.
Especially when it is answers from a Charismatic believer who will stand side by side to buck Fundamentalism with me, but acts like you have been on this thread. Yes GRASSHOPPER it does test the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT which has been my motivation to defend you here.

So, is that my assignment? To "witness" to everyone in "my neighborhood"?
No, your assignment has always been to come up with a relevant question concerning ULTIMATE RECONCILIATION/UNIVERSALISM. And not something as lame as 'urgency' when you aren't even fulfilling that 'point' yourself as a HELL YES-ER. I mean seriously Steve.

What does that even mean? Going door-to-door handing out church literature? Or running around the block screaming "You're all going to hell!" at 3AM in the morning? Or what?
Perfect observation...'now'. Unfortunately it was that stupid of a question 'to begin with'. But a question I did attempt to share how I'm fulfilling it based upon UR. And if you apparently aren't, then what was the point of ever bringing it up? You just keep proving that Apologetics is not a strong point for you here. :(

And you expect me to convince my wife about this when I am not even convinced?
And why aren't you convinced? I've answered every question in way to long of posts. Posts to which you give some one liner "thanks" for my effort. And absolutely nothing of substance for rebuttal. The bible has a verse perfectly describing your ineffectiveness in discounting UR.

"...It hurts you...to kick against the goads."

And you've been on CF long enough to know that there isn't any topic which doesn't bring out the opposers en mass. Where are your supporters since this doctrine is so easy to refute?

And is it not your civic duty to get out and vote? Do you think you are off the hook since you are a military vet? If you don't vote you shouldn't complain.

I believe my 'Godly duty' trumps your 'civic duty'. And since you're now appearing to be as weak concerning my American RIGHTS as you are RECONCILIATION let me go off topic for a sec; It's my RIGHT as an AMERICAN not to vote. If Viet Nam would have even been a worthy war, I fought for your rights Steve, not your civic duty. And it is those RIGHTS that also give me the RIGHT to complain if I want. So maybe you shouldn't try to 'bunny trail' me politically either. Especially if you, as most flag waving Christians, think this nation was founded on religious liberty. It was not, our country was. The Boston Tea Party wasn't about Christianity or religious freedom. It was about a nation's "love of money" and not wanting to pay taxes to the king. Even as the BIBLE dealt with, from the mouth of JESUS in dealing with Jews who were taxed way more than we were;

LUK 20:22 Is it right for us to pay taxes to (the king) Caesar or not?" 23 He saw through their duplicity and said to them,....."Then give to (the king) Caesar what is (the king's) Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

Is that "snotty" enough, or can you still nail me to a fence post?
If so, I'll be in good company. Jesus was nailed to one. (or two)
No, I already said I can't nail snot...or duplicity for that matter. But, in your defense, you are right about the cross of Jesus. :oldthumbsup: He died for all the snot nosed people in the world in order to reconcile them to God in spite of their trespasses and stupidity. Then He gave us the mandate to tell them they were reconciled in God's eyes before they were even born, 2000 years ago.

2CO 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But you go right ahead and preach to them the word of ETERNAL HELL, but I'm going to preach an EMPTY CROSS. So you can keep hanging ALONE if you want Steve, after all, it's your RIGHT....thank me very much. :)
 
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FineLinen

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Dear HatGuy: I trust the wading process is not wearing you out. I arose today to a wonderful word from the One who makes all things new. It summarizes all 150+ pages in one verse>>>>>

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole."

7f58a3898b78def226e2960e2918b13fefc9028c.jpeg
 
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Saint Steven

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But you go right ahead and preach to them the word of ETERNAL HELL, but I'm going to preach an EMPTY CROSS. So you can keep hanging ALONE if you want Steve, after all, it's your RIGHT....thank me very much. :)
Actually my best friend is agnostic.
He asked me once if I was going to tell him that he was going to hell.
I promised him that I would never say that to him. And I have kept my promise.
And frankly he was addressing a caricature of Christianity, not me.
I don't use those sort of fear tactics. Thank you very much.
 
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Saint Steven

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No, your assignment has always been to come up with a relevant question concerning ULTIMATE RECONCILIATION/UNIVERSALISM.
Okay. Here's one.
Universalists like to quote 1Tim.2:6, which says Christ "gave himself as a ransom for all people." (scripture below) But the two references in the gospels say "ransom for many." (not all)

Though I understand that the ransom was PAID for all, this may be something to contend with for those who believe that only the Elect were offered salvation in this lifetime, which was withheld from everyone else. Thus a "ransom for many". (not all)

Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

1 Timothy 2:6
who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
 
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FineLinen

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"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” -Romans 5:19

Many = πολύς/ polys

Many "made sinners">>>>>many "made righteous".
 
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Saint Steven

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You just keep proving that Apologetics is not a strong point for you here. :(
Yes. I'm torn.
Which may be part of the reason for my "bad" behavior. Though not an excuse.

I had not studied into Universalism prior to coming on the topic. And resonated more with the opponents than the proponents. And even tried to call the opponents back to the discussion. No takers. "Where are they?" is a good question. Some may be off the forum, by who's doing I'm not certain. I'm guessing the majority has given up on trying to communicate with the topic originator. Who IMHO is doing a disservice to the subject.

And as I have said all along, I hope you guys are right, but I am not yet convinced enough, nor knowledgeable enough, to say I'm all in. I have been doing some study to work through it. I went back to the beginning of the topic yesterday to see what I may have missed. I found broken links on two of them but one interesting topic that worked. Some good points are made. But I still see biblical evidence for all three positions. Being split three ways leaves me with no cohesive argument on all this. Torn, as I said. Like with any renovation project, demolition comes before rebuilding.

I would like to read more into the claim that the early church was primarily Universalist. There must be some info in the writings of the early church. Which unfortunately puts us outside the canon of scripture. But I can understand how the RCC may have intentionally rejected some of those writings. Although in general I tens to agree with their choices. The uncanonized writings of the early church are not at the same level as the canon.

Sorry, I'm talking your ear off this morning. The fresh coffee is good. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” -Romans 5:19

Many = πολύς/ polys

Many "made sinners">>>>>many "made righteous".
Thanks. That's a good comparison.
The "many" made sinners is equal to the "many" made righteous.
Since ALL were made sinners, it follows that ALL shall be made righteous.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Gup20

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Universalists are only half right (but that makes them half wrong). Resurrection is universal, but Salvation is not. In fact, there will be a universal resurrection, and that will be followed by a second judgment. Unlike Adam's universal, corporate judgement, the Great White Throne judgement will be an individual judgment.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.


So Christ’s work resurrects each and every human being from Adam’s corporate judgment, but then they are judged as individuals (by Christ). Those who do not have Christ’s righteousness by faith in the gospel then have a second death and are thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Gup: welcome!

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time." -Jesus, the Christ-

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” -Romans 5:19

Many = πολύς/ polys

Many "made sinners">>>>>many "made righteous".

The Equation of all equations!
 
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Gup20

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Dear Gup: welcome!

"This, in a nutshell, is that will: that everything handed over to me by the Father be completed - not a single detail missed - and at the wrap-up of time I have everything and everyone put together, upright and whole. This is what my Father wants: that anyone who sees the Son and trusts who he is and what he does and then aligns with him will enter real life, eternal life. My part is to put them on their feet alive and whole at the completion of time." -Jesus, the Christ-

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.” -Romans 5:19

Many = πολύς/ polys

Many "made sinners">>>>>many "made righteous".

The Equation of all equations!
I think Romans 5 is where we predominantly get the notion idea that there was a universal, corporate judgment in Adam, but that Christ's redemption or atonement is for individual sins.

There are many comparative and contrasting statements in Romans 5.

Rom 5:15-18 NASB
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

V15 contrasts the gift of righteousness with death
V16 contrasts judgment arising from 1 sin with the many sins that are covered by righteousness (showing Christ's atonement covers the many sins of each individual and not just the one sin of Adam).
V17 equates the universal restoration to life of all men with the universal condemnation to death of all men.

This doesn't necessarily mean Salvation of all men... as I showed in my previous post, we will have universal resurrection (or justification to life) of all, but then we will have a second judgment and a second death for those not in Christ.

Think of it this way. Adam's one, single sin condemned all people, plants, animals, and even the ground. Truly, the whole of creation was cursed as a result of Adam's sin. So Adam's judgement is universal, corporate. To resurrect every human being who is under Adam's judgment all one has to do is forgive one, single sin. So when Romans 5:16 says the justification is NOT LIKE the condemnation (these are terms of judgment), we know that the "many sins" being covered are the individual sins of each person, not the one, single sin of Adam. It is saying the difference is that Christ's atonement covers a different judgment than Adam's judgment.

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Here we see the Law saying what now is (under Adam's judgment), but Ezekiel is future prophecy and talks about how things will be in the Great White Throne judgment - an individual judgment.

Rev 20:11-12 NASB
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

So we see the book of life comes into play in the SECOND, individual judgment, not as it pertains to Adam's corporate judgment.

1Co 15:21-22 NASB
21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.​

Until a single, righteous person existed, a corporate universal judgment was just. However, once Jesus came and demonstrated his righteousness by The Law, thereby becoming the first righteous person in history, it would have invalidated Adam's judgment as unjust. Therefore, Adam's corporate judgment has to be repealed in lieu of individual judgments. Therefore Christ has brought justification of life to every thing so that it may undergoe individual judgment. This is good news for the planet, the ground, the plants, the animals... etc... since they cannot sin, they will have no more curse. But for man, we can sin, so we can be judged and have a second death.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Gup: The notion? Surely you jest. St. Paul presented no notions. The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the same polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Saviour of the all.

The fact is, Gup, the Beginning is the End. He is the ta panta of the all, including every last broken sinner of disobedience!
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Kmom2: welcome! Your latest post is a testimony of an ongoing awakening on planet earth.
trn.gif


"I became a proponent of universal reconciliation after a very bad experience with the harsh fundamentalist idea that God is going to send most of humanity to eternal conscious torture. I left that version of Christianity and spent a number of years studying other faiths. One of them was Buddhism, which has "bodhisattvas" who vow to put off nirvana until EVERY LAST BEING is liberated. This was the most beautiful thing I had ever heard of. This was pure sacrificial love. I wondered, why doesn't the faith of my upbringing, Christianity, have such a noble being--who wouldn't leave even ONE behind, even if it took aeons? Even if it meant taking on immense suffering? The one who died on the cross---he died for just a handful of people in the grand scheme of things? That's a very small "savior" hardly worthy of the name. Free will, they say? Not good enough. Any parent knows that love trumps free will when your toddler decides he wants to play with his legos in the middle of a busy street. God wouldn't let free will be the reason for unimaginable suffering of most of his creation.

And then I thought, maybe Jesus was the ultimate example of sacrificial love. I re-examined my old faith and found that, indeed, Jesus is the Savior of the world. The savior of every man, especially those who believe. The one would would never leave even one behind. I also discovered that the early church believed that as well. That was the good news. Does Jesus preach about hellish states and have harsh words for those who do evil? Sure, but none of that is everlasting or punitive, but corrective."
 
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Gup20

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Dear Gup: The notion? Surely you jest. St. Paul presented no notions. The polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the same polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, the Saviour of the all.

The fact is, Gup, the Beginning is the End. He is the ta panta of the all, including every last broken sinner of disobedience!
no·tion
/ˈnōSH(ə)n/
noun

  1. a conception of or belief about something.
    "children have different notions about the roles of their parents"
    synonyms: idea, belief, concept, conception, conviction, opinion, view, thought, impression, image, perception, mental picture; More

  2. an impulse or desire, especially one of a whimsical kind.
    "she had a notion to call her friend at work"
    synonyms: impulse, inclination, whim, desire, wish, fancy, caprice, whimsy
    "you can't expect us to fire any of our staff just because you get a notion to come back"
My use of the the term "notion" was not meant to infer the secondary, common meaning that it was whimsical, but rather the primary meaning meant to convey one's conception of. I apologize if this brought confusion or restricted clarity.

But I'm curious - to which judgment are you referring? Adam's judgment or the great white throne judgment?

Wouldn't calling Jesus "the last Adam" indicate that he would be the end of Adam's judgment?

I agree with you... the same "many" in the first half (those made to be sinners by Adam's universal judgment) are the same "many" brought to life as a result of Christ's universal resurrection. As I've stated all along, Adam's universal judgment is being repealed - there will be universal resurrection.

This in no way excludes a second, individual judgment to follow the universal resurrection.

Rev 2:11
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

So we see that ALL will escape the first death (Adam's judgment), but not all will escape the second death, which is an individual judgment (Lake of Fire for eternity).
 
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Wrangler

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And you are 'how old'? Chronologically and Christ-ologically?

I'm old enough to recognize Post-Modernism when I see it, which is the default ideology programmed in today's indoctrination centers (aka schools). I'm over half a century old.

I'm old enough in Christ-ologically not to throw pearls before swine.
 
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FineLinen

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no·tion
/ˈnōSH(ə)n/
noun

  1. a conception of or belief about something.
    "children have different notions about the roles of their parents"
    synonyms: idea, belief, concept, conception, conviction, opinion, view, thought, impression, image, perception, mental picture; More

  2. an impulse or desire, especially one of a whimsical kind.
    "she had a notion to call her friend at work"
    synonyms: impulse, inclination, whim, desire, wish, fancy, caprice, whimsy
    "you can't expect us to fire any of our staff just because you get a notion to come back"
My use of the the term "notion" was not meant to infer the secondary, common meaning that it was whimsical, but rather the primary meaning meant to convey one's conception of. I apologize if this brought confusion or restricted clarity.

But I'm curious - to which judgment are you referring? Adam's judgment or the great white throne judgment?

Wouldn't calling Jesus "the last Adam" indicate that he would be the end of Adam's judgment?

I agree with you... the same "many" in the first half (those made to be sinners by Adam's universal judgment) are the same "many" brought to life as a result of Christ's universal resurrection. As I've stated all along, Adam's universal judgment is being repealed - there will be universal resurrection.

This in no way excludes a second, individual judgment to follow the universal resurrection.

Rev 2:11
‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”​

So we see that ALL will escape the first death (Adam's judgment), but not all will escape the second death, which is an individual judgment (Lake of Fire for eternity).
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Gup: I appreciate the clarification regarding "notion". Either way, the Apostle St. Paul's "conception" of the scope of Father's Plan is clear. God is the ta panta of the all. There is simply no in between: He is the beginning, He is the ending.

Do you know what is the main ingredient of the Lake of all lakes? It is theion. And theion is rooted in Theos. The Lake of Theos, like our God the Consuming Fire, is the destination for each and EVERY one of us!
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Gup:

The way for all is through the fires, for fire is the great uniter and reconciler of all things; and things which without fire can never be united, in and through the fire are changed and become one.

Therefore every coming of Christ, even in grace, is a day of judgment. Therefore there are fires even for the elect both now, (1 Pet. 1:7, and 4: 12) and in the coming day; (1 Cor. 3:. 13, 15.) for “our God is a consuming fire;” (Heb. 12: 29.) and to dwell in Him we must have a life, which, because it is of the fire, for fire burns not fire, can stand unhurt in it.

Therefore our Lord “came to cast fire into the earth,” and desired nothing more than “that it should be already kindled;” (S. Luke 12: 49) therefore He says,

Mark 9: 49

For this is the very “baptism of the Holy Ghost and fire,” (Matt. 3: 11) that “spirit of judgment and burning,” promised by the prophet, "with which the Lord shall purge away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and cleanse the blood of Jerusalem; after which He will create on every dwelling place of Mount Zion, and on all her assemblies, a cloud of smoke by day, and the brightness of flame of fire by night; and upon all, the glory shall be a defense; (Isa. 4: 4, 5) for “He is like a refiner’s fire, and like a fuller’s soap; and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and He shall purify the sons of Levi as gold and silver are purged, that they may offer to the Lord an offering of righteousness.” (Mal. 3: 3). And as by the hidden fire of this present life, shut up in these bodies of corruption, we are able by the wondrous chemistry of nature through corruption to change the fruits and flesh of the earth into our blood, and from blood again into our flesh and bone and sinew; so by the fire of God can we be changed, and made partakers of Christ’s flesh and blood. In and through Christ we have received this transmutation; (Rom. 5: 11) and through His Spirit, which is fire, is this same change accomplished in us.

NOTE:

Numbers 28: 6. By this double sense a veil covers the letter, veiling yet revealing God’s purpose; for His purpose to the creature is through destruction to perfect it, and by fire to make it a bride unto the Lord. For a kindred reason some of the angels are called Seraphim, that is burning ones; for like the Lord, whose throne is flames of fire, (Dan. 7: 9,10.) they also are as fire; as it is written, “He makes His angels spirits, His messengers a flame of fire.” (Heb. 1: 7, and Psalm 104:4)

And as with the first-fruits, so with the harvest. The world to be saved must some day know the same baptism. For “the Lord will come with fire,” and “by fire and by His sword will He plead with all flesh, and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” (Isa. 66: 15, 16.) The promised baptism or outpouring of the Spirit must be judgment, for the Spirit cannot be poured on man without consuming this flesh to quicken a better life;

NOTE:

James 1: 20) works both righteousness and life, and is set forth in that “warfare of the service of the tabernacle” (See Numbers 4: 23, 30, and 8: 24, 25; margin: and compare 1 Tim. 1: eighteen) by which that which was of the earth was made to ascend to God through fire a sweet sacrifice.

-Andrew Jukes-
 
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