Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV

createdtoworship

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The accurate translation of Proverbs 17:8 would be something like the ESV, or the NIV: A bribe is seen as a charm by the one who gives it; they think success will come at every turn.

The first highlighted word (H7810) means "bribe." It's also used in Exodus 23:8 ("And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the clear-sighted and subverts the cause of those who are in the right") and in Proverbs 17:23 ("The wicked accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the ways of justice").

The second highlighted phrase (H68) means "stone" (the word "precious" does not occur in the Hebrew). In context, a magic stone or charm seem to be implied (and the proverb is criticising, not endorsing this way of thinking).

Why does the KJVO brigade always resort to falsehoods?
your version seems to be missing this hebrew word: strongs H2580

which can mean precious. So implying it's a magic stone is outright evil. You should be ashamed of yourself twisting the word like that.

NOTE: modern translations are missing dozens of words and verses that are there in the textus receptus, (and some attested to by the church fathers in the second century). In this case it allows you, a modern reader to interject wizardry into the text. Again, not good. You should be ashamed. Next time try using a textus receptus interlinear and at least seeing if the word is there before automatically assuming it's not.
 
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createdtoworship

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KJV78.png
 
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Radagast

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your version seems to be missing this hebrew word: strongs H2580

which can mean precious

Nowhere else, in the other 68 times that Hebrew word is used, does even the KJV translate it as "precious." No, it doesn't mean that. It means "favourable," or in this case, probably "magic."

NOTE: modern translations are missing dozens of words and verses that are there in the textus receptus

The Textus Receptus debate applies to the New Testament, not the Old.

and at least seeing if the word is there before automatically assuming it's not.

Huh? :scratch: I distinctly said phrase.
 
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createdtoworship

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Nowhere else, in the other 68 times that Hebrew word is used, does even the KJV translate it as "precious." No, it doesn't mean that. It means "favourable," or in this case, probably "magic."



The Textus Receptus debate applies to the New Testament, not the Old.



Huh? :scratch: I distinctly said phrase.
So when translators translate that word 38 times as grace, 26 times as favor, and zero times as "bribe" or "charm." How do you logically say that is means charm? or Bribe? Secondly logically grace and favor are closer to precious than they are to bribe or charm, so that would be the more accurate translation.
 
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Radagast

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So when translators translate that word 38 times as grace, 26 times as favor, and zero times as "bribe" or "charm."

There's absolutely no point talking to someone who won't be honest.

Even in the KJV, the Hebrew word H7810 is explicitly translated "bribe" or "bribery" in Job 15:34, Psalms 26:10, 1 Samuel 8:3, and Isaiah 33:15.

Elsewhere it's translated "gift" in the negative sense meaning "bribe," as in Exodus 23:8, Deuteronomy 16:19, Proverbs 17:23, Micah 3:11, etc.
 
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createdtoworship

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There's absolutely no point talking to someone who won't be honest.

Even in the KJV, the Hebrew word H7810 is explicitly translated "bribe" or "bribery" in Job 15:34, Psalms 26:10, 1 Samuel 8:3, and Isaiah 33:15.

Elsewhere it's translated "gift" in the negative sense meaning "bribe," as in Exodus 23:8, Deuteronomy 16:19, Proverbs 17:23, Micah 3:11, etc.
hold on, before we start calling each other a liar lets look how accurate calling that word bribe is. See the same word is translated ten times as gift:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

and only 3 or 4 times as bribe:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

and the other intrepretation as "magic" I don't see at all. So lets talk about that. I feel I have refuted most of your posts at this point. There is no solid argument for believing it is magic, because you cannot prove it is translated bribe, when by and large the majority of the time it's "gift."

So unless you can quote a lexical scholar you are out of luck in this debate. I know I am not a scholar, but so far I haven't even needed to use the software and my lexical aides as blue letter Bible has been sufficient. I noticed you started using it as well. By all means please prove your case that the word should be bribe and magic. As my interpretation has over double the amount of biblical usage.
 
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Andrewn

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But the NKJV may have taken too much liberty in some instances, and needs to be updated badly.
Other new Byzantine / Majority text version are the WEB, MEV, and EHV. The 1st 2 are basically updates of KJV. Have you tried these translations?
 
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createdtoworship

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Other new Byzantine / Majority text version are the WEB, MEV, and EHV. The 1st 2 are basically updates of KJV. Have you tried these translations?
the WEB (world english translation from a google search is an update of the ASV)

The MEV looks like it consulted other modern translations in it's substitutions of words, and even claims to be a modern translation. You can easily see here, that words that the KJV and NKJV have, it substitutes for words the ESV and NASB have.

which I don't trust:

MEV Comparison

there are other majority text translations out there: I see a bunch here:

Are modern Bible translations as good as the old ones? KJV versus ESV versus NKJV

I have not studied each one individually, but if they did a comparison like the MEV does, it would be easy to tell how well it was done.
 
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Andrewn

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The MEV looks like it consulted other modern translations in it's substitutions of words, and even claims to be a modern translation. You can easily see here, that words that the KJV and NKJV have, it substitutes for words the ESV and NASB have.
While we are comparing translations that are mostly accurate, Christians and even the pastor in church read from NIV and NLT. This bothers me. Dynamic translations may work for OT but not for the NT or psalms.
 
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createdtoworship

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While we are comparing translations that are mostly accurate, Christians and even the pastor in church read from NIV and NLT. This bothers me. Dynamic translations may work for OT but not for the NT or psalms.
It's refreshing to find someone who understands how translations work.

here is one you may enjoy:
kjv 75.png
 
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createdtoworship

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Mt 17:21 is present in NKJV, WEB, MEV, and EHV. The verse is absent from ESV, NIV,CSB, and NLT. NASB has it between brackets and doesn't have "repentance" in Mt 9:13.
strange thing, after I posted that, I felt I had a messenger of satan to buffet me while I slept.

I don't think it was entirely related, but it may have been a little bit.

It was probably the worst temptation I have received, satan was telling me to follow him and he would give me untold wisdom and pleasure. I said, "I desire the pleasure, but you want too high a price"

Never happened to me before. Weird. I feel I passed the test. But I don't think this will be the end. I was half way asleep so my full logical faculties were not there, so it was way harder to reject the pleasure, I had to fight it off repeatedly.

I woke up and started watching worship videos, and felt better after about twenty minutes.

funny thing is the verse that was posted said "this type doesn't come out except by prayer and fasting."

so I just thought it was a crazy coincidence, although nothing is entirely coincidence.
 
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Andrewn

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funny thing is the verse that was posted said "this type doesn't come out except by prayer and fasting." so I just thought it was a crazy coincidence, although nothing is entirely coincidence.
Perhaps this is why some sources delete the verse.
 
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Dr. Jack

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I am not a greek scholar, but I assume masculine means the word is masculine. If it was not masculine it probably would use another tense. Is my guess. The fact that some neutral words use a masculine tense does not prove that every case, or even most cases of masculine nouns, are not in fact masculine.
Let me help you here ...

English is pretty much Male, female, and neuter. Pronouns are gender specific: she (nominative) her (accusative); he (mominative) him (accusative), it, neuter.

Words such as people, they, children etc are neuter gender; being applicable to either gender, or a group of both. There is no "gender specific" (male, female words for) people, children, or they, in English.

Additionally, there are no "gender specific" words for inanimate objects in English for such things as tables etc. In Spanish the table has a feminine gender, (la mesa), but that doesn't make tables "female"; it's just the grammar of the Spanish language.

In Greek, as Radagast has shown, the word anthropos is considered a word having a male gender, but like the Spanish la mesa, (female gender), the Greek anthropos doesn't make all people "male", it is simply a "male gender" word. Anthropos simply refers to people being 'mankind', but not all males.

This is a lesson you learn in Greek 101 when learning about Greek nouns. It is hardly "Greek scholar" material.
 
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createdtoworship

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Let me help you here ...

English is pretty much Male, female, and neuter. Pronouns are gender specific: she (nominative) her (accusative); he (mominative) him (accusative), it, neuter.

Words such as people, they, children etc are neuter gender; being applicable to either gender, or a group of both. There is no "gender specific" (male, female words for) people, children, or they, in English.

Additionally, there are no "gender specific" words for inanimate objects in English for such things as tables etc. In Spanish the table has a feminine gender, (la mesa), but that doesn't make tables "female"; it's just the grammar of the Spanish language.

In Greek, as Radagast has shown, the word anthropos is considered a word having a male gender, but like the Spanish la mesa, (female gender), the Greek anthropos doesn't make all people "male", it is simply a "male gender" word. Anthropos simply refers to people being 'mankind', but not all males.

This is a lesson you learn in Greek 101 when learning about Greek nouns. It is hardly "Greek scholar" material.

That was very well explained. :oldthumbsup:

Let me just add that Greek has a different word for males: anēr (plural: andres).

saying that this is common knowledge is innacurate. A typical christian has no idea of greek or hebrew. In someplaces anthropos could refer to mankind, or people. I admit that. But also in many places it refers to men:

"men of this world or generation, wicked men (Matt. 10:17; 17:22; Luke 6:22, 26). In Matt. 6:5, 14–16; 7:12; 19:12; 23:4; Luke 6:31; 11:46, other men, others. See also Sept.: Judg. 16:7; 18:28."

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

but in your defense I doubt that the people who made that image attacking modern translations bothered to look it up in a greek dictionary.

So because of this, I will remove the original picture.

I have dozens more to share, so I am not done, but I need to scan them and research them before just assuming they did their greek homework.

thanks for talk.

however if you do presume to be more spiritual because of your knowledge of greek, I will block further conversations with you.

It took me a whole five minutes to look it up, but still the average christian does not know greek. And I don't think it is all that important.

Like I have said before if you have a solid translation, and not the NIV which removes thousands of words, or other modern translations that are missing thousands of words, if you have good translation based on good manuscripts, then no, you don't need knowledge of greek. Because what you read is what the greek says for the most part, that is what a word for word translation is. However if you use dynamic equivalent, then you don't get that accuracy.

dynamic equivalent works better in hebrew than greek, thats for sure but I don't like it as a general principle. If there is a word that is closer to the greek than the word I am using, why would I seek to make another equivalence?
 
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createdtoworship

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Perhaps this is why some sources delete the verse.

Let me help you here ...

English is pretty much Male, female, and neuter. Pronouns are gender specific: she (nominative) her (accusative); he (mominative) him (accusative), it, neuter.

Words such as people, they, children etc are neuter gender; being applicable to either gender, or a group of both. There is no "gender specific" (male, female words for) people, children, or they, in English.

Additionally, there are no "gender specific" words for inanimate objects in English for such things as tables etc. In Spanish the table has a feminine gender, (la mesa), but that doesn't make tables "female"; it's just the grammar of the Spanish language.

In Greek, as Radagast has shown, the word anthropos is considered a word having a male gender, but like the Spanish la mesa, (female gender), the Greek anthropos doesn't make all people "male", it is simply a "male gender" word. Anthropos simply refers to people being 'mankind', but not all males.

This is a lesson you learn in Greek 101 when learning about Greek nouns. It is hardly "Greek scholar" material.

That was very well explained. :oldthumbsup:

Let me just add that Greek has a different word for males: anēr (plural: andres).

lets talk about this verse:

kjv 75.png



I tried to find this verse perhaps in other places, you know how some bibles are different. And it also appears in Mark 9:29

and it is interesting how in the ESV, NIV, and ESV have removed the word fasting, also from mark 9:29

Me and a friend in the past fasted for a period of months, and I tell you during that period so much happened in my spiritual life, I was awoken out of a slumber. I had half a dozen visions, some prophetic, other showing word of knowledge. Granted I have never been able to use either of those gifts, accept one time with word of knowlege in 1997, but never again. It was just strange that numerous times it happened during fasting periods. I definately recommend the practice for spiritual development, and victory over habitual sins. So sad that modern translations remove it from both places, seems deliberate.

the greek word is there in the textus receptus:

it is this word
Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)

so out of two of the only places (maybe the only two places in the Bible, where it mentions that some possessions can only be cured by fasting and prayer, the modern translations remove both cases of fasting, and one case of prayer. So that only one verse remains of the two, and only half of it is there.

If I was satan, and I had my fingers in a translation, I would remove that verse too.
 
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Radagast

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Like I have said before if you have a solid translation, and not the NIV which removes thousands of words, or other modern translations that are missing thousands of words, if you have good translation based on good manuscripts, then no, you don't need knowledge of greek.

But it's someone who knows Greek that's best able to evaluate how "solid" a translation actually is.

And good modern translations like the ESV, CSB, and even the NIV are produced by people who know Greek.

And there's a lot more to knowing Greek than just looking up words online; you need to understand gender (that's the issue that came up here), and case, and tense, and propositions, and grammar rules, etc., etc.

If there is a word that is closer to the greek than the word I am using, why would I seek to make another equivalence?

Sometimes the meaning of the Greek word changes depending on the words around it. Sometimes the Greek word is part of a phrase that has no English equivalent.

An example would be μὴ γένοιτο (mē genoito), a phrase that Paul loved to use. It's an emphatic negative, using the Greek optative tense (which English does not have).

Good as-literal-as-possible translations are:

CSB: Absolutely not! (a very good translation)

NKJV
: Certainly not! (a very good translation)

ESV: By no means! (a very good translation)

NIV: Not at all! (a very good translation)

NASB: May it never be! (the most literal, but perhaps not quite capturing the meaning)

All of these use an English exclamation mark (!) as part of the translation, to get across the emphatic nature of the original.

A bad, non-literal translation would be

KJV: God forbid (neither God nor forbidding are mentioned in the Greek).
 
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createdtoworship

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CSB: Absolutely not! (a very good translation)

NKJV
: Certainly not! (a very good translation)

ESV: By no means! (a very good translation)

NIV: Not at all! (a very good translation)

NASB: May it never be! (the most literal, but perhaps not quite capturing the meaning)

okay so this is a side issue for one, it's a very small passage, and the words have no theolical impact.

so I don't need to bother. But look at how it is said in the various translations, NOT at ALL is not the same meaning as MAY IT NEVER BE.

those are very different meanings. Not at all, means it didn't happen, MAY IT NEVER BE means it shouldn't happen.

the better translations seem to mean it shouldn't happen, which is basically what God forbid means in the KJV.

check the NKJV, the one I use, it's updated.
 
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Radagast

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okay so this is a side issue for one, it's a very small passage, and the words have no theolical impact.

It was just an example of where the Greek has no direct equivalent in English.

so I don't need to bother. But look at how it is said in the various translations, NOT at ALL is not the same meaning as MAY IT NEVER BE.

In the context of Romans 3:3-4, absolutely not! (ESV) is probably the best answer to the question Paul poses: "What then? If some were unfaithful, will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? Absolutely not!"

Certainly not! (NKJV) is almost as good. But the words chosen to translate mē genoito (a Greek answer to a Greek question) have to make sense as an English answer to an English question.
 
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