Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

Actually Hebrews 7:19 would be a verse that I would expect some in the Belief Alone camp to bring up by now. They think that the Law made nothing perfect by this verse. What they fail to realize is that this is in reference to the Levitical priesthood Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) see Hebrews 7:11, and it is not in reference to God's eternal moral laws (Which are perfect and can convert the soul). For Scripture does not contradict Scripture. It breathes in harmony as a cohesive whole.

"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?" (Hebrews 7:11).

"For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God." (Hebrews 7:19).

The levitical law made nothing perfect because the blood of goats and bulls never took away sin on a permanent basis. They only temporarily resolved sin, and they had to keep revisiting the same past sins year after year.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins." (Hebrews 10:4).

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship." (Hebrews 10:1) (NIV).

The sacrifices of the written Levitical Law can never make perfect. Not God's eternal Moral Law. God's eternal moral law is perfect and it can convert the soul.

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, if you love the Lord, you will keep His commandments. That is what I am saying.
Paul says if a person does not love the Lord (i.e. not keep His commandments) they are accursed (See 1 Corinthians 16:22). One has to keep the commandments of loving God and loving one's neighbor to inherit eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28); This truth is confirmed even after the cross with 1 John 3:15 (i.e. a person does not have eternal life abiding in them if they hate their brother).

The Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding because Colossians 2 says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths, and no commands of any kind are given for us to keep the Saturday Sabbath in the New Covenant. Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us.

We are being transformed into His image. His image (likeness - becoming like Him) ... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath and said He is the Lord of if. Either He's the Lord (master) of something or the Lord (master) of nothing.

He didn't keep the 7th day Sabbath because He was a Jew, He kept it because He is God and Lord (master over it). He made/created the 7th day for man (mankind) and not man for the Sabbath.

We are to follow in His footsteps and His footsteps included keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

1 Peter 2:21

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

The 7th day Sabbath is right in the heart of the 10. The 10 are inseparable.

John 8:29

"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.

Psalm 40:8

I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."

If I understand correctly ...

We are in agreement: The sacrificial laws/ceremonial laws were done away with ... and they were nailed to the cross.

We are in agreement sorta: The Lord will help us keep the 10 just as He did (not 9). Except you dismiss keeping the 7th day Sabbath .... so you believe only in 9 commandments.

Hebrews 10:16

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws (all 10) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." All 10 of them.

He was quoting Jeremiah and reaffirming the covenant with all people, now including gentiles (anyone in Christ).

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

The 7th day Sabbath is in the heart of the Law (by no accident), and in the heart and mind of mankind. Yet people are ignoring it ... dismissing it ... removing it. replacing it, separating it

So, just yank the 7th day Sabbath out of the middle (heart) of the law and, then it's not in ones heart or mind.

Matthew 5:18 New International Version (NIV)

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Psalm 119:11
I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Psalm 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! Except the 4th?

The 10 - keep them out of LOVE, and Jesus will help us do this.
John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me (9 of them or 10 0f them?). The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

It's about MOTIVE .... Love ... His love working in us ... He will help us keep His commandments (all 10) of love because He loves us

Revelation 14:12

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands (9 of them or 10 of them?) and remain faithful to Jesus.

Romans 7:12
So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

eleos1954 said:
We are being transformed into His image. His image (likeness - becoming like Him) ... Jesus kept the 7th day Sabbath and said He is the Lord of if. Either He's the Lord (master) of something or the Lord (master) of nothing.

He didn't keep the 7th day Sabbath because He was a Jew, He kept it because He is God and Lord (master over it). He made/created the 7th day for man (mankind) and not man for the Sabbath.

We are to follow in His footsteps and His footsteps included keeping the 7th day Sabbath.

1 Peter 2:21

To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

The 7th day Sabbath is right in the heart of the 10. The 10 are inseparable.

John 8:29

"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.

Psalm 40:8

I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."

If I understand correctly ...

We are in agreement: The sacrificial laws/ceremonial laws were done away with ... and they were nailed to the cross.

We are in agreement sorta: The Lord will help us keep the 10 just as He did (not 9). Except you dismiss keeping the 7th day Sabbath .... so you believe only in 9 commandments.

Hebrews 10:16

"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws (all 10) in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." All 10 of them.

He was quoting Jeremiah and reaffirming the covenant with all people, now including gentiles (anyone in Christ).

Jeremiah 31:33
"But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people.

The 7th day Sabbath is in the heart of the Law (by no accident), and in the heart and mind of mankind. Yet people are ignoring it ... dismissing it ... removing it. replacing it, separating it

So, just yank the 7th day Sabbath out of the middle (heart) of the law and, then it's not in ones heart or mind.

Matthew 5:18 New International Version (NIV)

18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Psalm 119:11
I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.

Psalm 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments! Except the 4th?

The 10 - keep them out of LOVE, and Jesus will help us do this.
John 14:21
21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me (9 of them or 10 0f them?). The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

It's about MOTIVE .... Love ... His love working in us ... He will help us keep His commandments (all 10) of love because He loves us

Revelation 14:12

12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands (9 of them or 10 of them?) and remain faithful to Jesus.

Romans 7:12
So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Thank you. I heard a lot of Saturday Sabbath defending before that strains the text of the Bible. Jesus being an example for us to follow sounds like a great point. Unfortunately, it is still flawed, my friend. Jesus was also circumcised (seeing He was a Jew). Does that mean we must be circumcised? Paul says otherwise (Galatians 5:2). If Jesus is our example and we take that to it’s most literal extent, then we should allow others to worship us as God, die on the cross for men’s sins, etc.; So clearly there are limits to Jesus being our example.

As for the Sabbath: Colossians 2 says,

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” (Colossians 2:16).

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).

‭‭
Besides, do you really keep the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown? Meaning do you do no servile work during this time? I guess it really doesn’t matter if no Law can condemn you. But what of the command in 1 John 3:23? It is a Law that even you must admit deals with salvation. Clearly this Law is perfect and it can convert the soul just as Psalms 19:7 says. Granted, the Law is with the working of God on the other end (of course).

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Thank you. I heard a lot of Saturday Sabbath defending before that strains the text of the Bible. Jesus being an example for us to follow sounds like a great point. Unfortunately, it is still flawed, my friend. For if this is the case, then we should follow Jesus telling us to make an animal sacrifice (gift) after we reconcile with our brother first (Matthew 5:23-24).

“Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.” (Matthew 5:23-24).

Jesus was also circumcised (seeing He was a Jew). Does that mean we should be circumcised? Paul says otherwise (Galatians 5:2). If Jesus is our example and we take that to it’s most literal extent, then we should allow others to worship us as God, die on the cross for men’s sins, etc.; So clearly there are limits to Jesus being our example.

Colossians 2 says,

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” (Colossians 2:16).

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” (Colossians 2:14).
‭‭
Besides, do you really keep the Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown? Meaning do you do no servile work during this time? I guess it really doesn’t matter if no Law can condemn you. But what of the command in 1 John 3:23? It is a Law that even you must admit deals with salvation. Clearly this Law is perfect and it can convert the soul just as Psalms 19:7 says. Granted, the Law is with the working of God on the other end (of course).

Jesus was also circumcised (seeing He was a Jew). Does that mean we should be circumcised?

No, because circumcision is not in the 10 commandments now are they. ridiculous comparisons being made.

All these "laws" you are citing were contained in the laws and ordinances contained in the ceremonial/sanctuary laws ... and all those laws were nailed to the cross ... done away with ... no longer needed.

"I guess it really doesn’t matter if no Law can condemn you."

Once we accept Jesus as our Savior. Baptized and resurrected to the newness of life, we are no longer under the PENALTY of the law (the wages of sin is death...) Romans 6:23, but now under the POWER OF GRACE. Our wills are being transformed to obeying the Will of God. We are "yoked" with Christ. Our lives now are being driven by the Holy Spirit. If we falter, (slip) Grace picks us up, dust us off and puts us back on the right track. Therefore sin MAY abound (but Grace much more abounds) but sin will NOT reign in our lives.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law
What Law? 10 Commandments
How do we keep them? Christ working in us.
Why do we keep them? Because we Love Him and for no other reasons.
What is Gods will? That we keep His Law, out of Love, and He helps us do this.

ok why do we strive to, in your viewpoint keep 9 of the 10 and not the 4th? If the 7th day Sabbath were going to be done away it would not appear in the 10.

The Jews had many sabbaths, and some of them coincided with the 7th, but because they did does not eliminate the 7th day sabbath.

Special Sabbaths of the Jewish Year

servile work - service to others ... it's ok to serve on the Sabbath .... He healed on the Sabbath, rested on the Sabbath, taught on the Sabbath, worshipped on the Sabbath. He did good on the Sabbath and it's lawful to do so.

Matthew 12:12

11He replied, “If one of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (set apart) ... set apart from what? All other days. Why? Because He set it apart the last day of creation.

He said remember it because He knew we would forget it. dismiss it ... and that is being done by many.

Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not a Jew thing .... it is a mankind thing, created for mankind before there were any Jews.

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (set it apart), because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ... Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Matthew 22

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law (all 10) and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

People say they believe in the creation account, yet dismiss the 7th day the Lord blessed and sanctified .... really ?????

Are we ever to ignore or dismiss what the Lord blesses and sanctifies (declares Holy)? Of course not.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Jesus was also circumcised (seeing He was a Jew). Does that mean we should be circumcised?

No, because circumcision is not in the 10 commandments now are they. ridiculous comparisons being made.

All these "laws" you are citing were contained in the laws and ordinances contained in the ceremonial/sanctuary laws ... and all those laws were nailed to the cross ... done away with ... no longer needed.

"I guess it really doesn’t matter if no Law can condemn you."

Once we accept Jesus as our Savior. Baptized and resurrected to the newness of life, we are no longer under the PENALTY of the law (the wages of sin is death...) Romans 6:23, but now under the POWER OF GRACE. Our wills are being transformed to obeying the Will of God. We are "yoked" with Christ. Our lives now are being driven by the Holy Spirit. If we falter, (slip) Grace picks us up, dust us off and puts us back on the right track. Therefore sin MAY abound (but Grace much more abounds) but sin will NOT reign in our lives.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law
What Law? 10 Commandments
How do we keep them? Christ working in us.
Why do we keep them? Because we Love Him and for no other reasons.
What is Gods will? That we keep His Law, out of Love, and He helps us do this.

ok why do we strive to, in your viewpoint keep 9 of the 10 and not the 4th? If the 7th day Sabbath were going to be done away it would not appear in the 10.

The Jews had many sabbaths, and some of them coincided with the 7th, but because they did does not eliminate the 7th day sabbath.

Special Sabbaths of the Jewish Year

servile work - service to others ... it's ok to serve on the Sabbath .... He healed on the Sabbath, rested on the Sabbath, taught on the Sabbath, worshipped on the Sabbath. He did good on the Sabbath and it's lawful to do so.

Matthew 12:12

11He replied, “If one of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (set apart) ... set apart from what? All other days. Why? Because He set it apart the last day of creation.

He said remember it because He knew we would forget it. dismiss it ... and that is being done by many.

Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not a Jew thing .... it is a mankind thing, created for mankind before there were any Jews.

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (set it apart), because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ... Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Matthew 22

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law (all 10) and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

People say they believe in the creation account, yet dismiss the 7th day the Lord blessed and sanctified .... really ?????

Are we ever to ignore or dismiss what the Lord blesses and sanctifies (declares Holy)? Of course not.

When do you believe the New Covenant started?
I believe it happens at Christ's death because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom, and Jesus said that the wine within the cup represented his blood that would be shed for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. On the contrary, Colossians 2 says that we are to no longer judge according to Sabbaths. This means that the Sabbath is no longer binding if we cannot judge anyone for not keeping it.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Jesus was also circumcised (seeing He was a Jew). Does that mean we should be circumcised?

No, because circumcision is not in the 10 commandments now are they. ridiculous comparisons being made.

All these "laws" you are citing were contained in the laws and ordinances contained in the ceremonial/sanctuary laws ... and all those laws were nailed to the cross ... done away with ... no longer needed.

"I guess it really doesn’t matter if no Law can condemn you."

Once we accept Jesus as our Savior. Baptized and resurrected to the newness of life, we are no longer under the PENALTY of the law (the wages of sin is death...) Romans 6:23, but now under the POWER OF GRACE. Our wills are being transformed to obeying the Will of God. We are "yoked" with Christ. Our lives now are being driven by the Holy Spirit. If we falter, (slip) Grace picks us up, dust us off and puts us back on the right track. Therefore sin MAY abound (but Grace much more abounds) but sin will NOT reign in our lives.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law
What Law? 10 Commandments
How do we keep them? Christ working in us.
Why do we keep them? Because we Love Him and for no other reasons.
What is Gods will? That we keep His Law, out of Love, and He helps us do this.

ok why do we strive to, in your viewpoint keep 9 of the 10 and not the 4th? If the 7th day Sabbath were going to be done away it would not appear in the 10.

The Jews had many sabbaths, and some of them coincided with the 7th, but because they did does not eliminate the 7th day sabbath.

Special Sabbaths of the Jewish Year

servile work - service to others ... it's ok to serve on the Sabbath .... He healed on the Sabbath, rested on the Sabbath, taught on the Sabbath, worshipped on the Sabbath. He did good on the Sabbath and it's lawful to do so.

Matthew 12:12

11He replied, “If one of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy (set apart) ... set apart from what? All other days. Why? Because He set it apart the last day of creation.

He said remember it because He knew we would forget it. dismiss it ... and that is being done by many.

Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is not a Jew thing .... it is a mankind thing, created for mankind before there were any Jews.

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (set it apart), because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ... Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Matthew 22

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’e 40All the Law (all 10) and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome,

People say they believe in the creation account, yet dismiss the 7th day the Lord blessed and sanctified .... really ?????

Are we ever to ignore or dismiss what the Lord blesses and sanctifies (declares Holy)? Of course not.

You also said we are not under the penalty of the Law but you did not quote any verse or passage to back up that statement.

dqhall · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

"7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:7-11).

While Psalms 19:7-11 is referring to the Old Law, I believe that the basic principle of truth behind God's laws remains the same today for the New Covenant Laws, as well. if not, then what is the point of this passage in our Bibles? Yes, it is Old Covenant, and it is referring to the Old Law, but can we not apply this passage to our lives today with the Laws in the New Testament?

Is the Law of the Lord today (New Covenant Law) really perfect?
Can the New Covenant Law really convert the soul?
Can the commandment of the Lord (i.e. the commandment of the Lord from the New Testament) truly enlighten the eyes?

Can New Covenant Law truly warn us as servants?
Is there a great reward in keeping New Covenant Law?

Side Note:

I am also not denying that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe that God's grace is where it starts and it is our ultimate source of salvation. For without Jesus, nobody could be saved and or have their past slate of sins wiped out. But what of God's laws for today under the New Testament? Do we ignore or minimize them because we got grace?

In Leviticus 15:19-28 there are laws about a woman who is in her period. She was considered unclean for seven days. No one was allowed to sit on her bed or chair without being considered unclean. Anyone who touched those who had been made unclean might also be made unclean. One who was unclean during the first century was supposed to wash in a mikveh. These were pools carved into the limestone bedrock around the temple and in the city of Jerusalem. Archaeologists found pools near a first century synagogue at Magdala. There is a Talmudic book with arguments about ritual cleanness, uncleanness and a woman’s monthly period called Niddah. Some Jews carried the superstition to the point they thought this uncleanness could jump from object to object. Jews did not want to go into a Gentile’s house as they thought these people who did not know the law were unclean. This law was not perfect in all its aspects, the stagnant mikveh pools they shared for ritual cleansing were vectors for transmission of bacterial infections. There was not only life in the law, but death in the law.

The New Testament is based on obedience to God.

~Zao~ · Jul 10, 2019

dqhall said:
In Leviticus 15:19-28 there are laws about a woman who is in her period. She was considered unclean for seven days. No one was allowed to sit on her bed or chair without being considered unclean. Anyone who touched those who had been made unclean might also be made unclean. One who was unclean during the first century was supposed to wash in a mikveh. These were pools carved into the limestone bedrock around the temple and in the city of Jerusalem. Archaeologists found pools near a first century synagogue at Magdala. There is a Talmudic book with arguments about ritual cleanness, uncleanness and a woman’s monthly period called Niddah. Some Jews carried the superstition to the point they thought this uncleanness could jump from object to object. Jews did not want to go into a Gentile’s house as they thought these people who did not know the law were unclean. This law was not perfect in all its aspects, the stagnant mikveh pools they shared for ritual cleansing were vectors for transmission of bacterial infections. There was not only life in the law, but death in the law.

The New Testament is based on obedience to God.

That would be quite an inconvenience for those with emissions that many claim they have daily rather than just periodically. ;-) I agree "The New Testament is based on obedience to God.” But even Abraham’s ‘work’ that is being touted as a different means to salvation was in obedience to God.

~Zao~ · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
When do you believe the New Covenant started?
I believe it happens at Christ's death because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom, and Jesus said that the wine within the cup represented his blood that would be shed for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. On the contrary, Colossians 2 says that we are to no longer judge according to Sabbaths. This means that the Sabbath is no longer binding if we cannot judge anyone for not keeping it.

You have said that circumscision and sabbath rest is not binding on Christians and yet a circumcised heart is the christian condition. There was a rest, there is a rest and there is one to follow is also christian doctrine. But you seem to ignore all of that. AND to say Christ is not our example. His example is in the suffering, which is what Peter tells us.

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
When do you believe the New Covenant started?
I believe it happens at Christ's death because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom, and Jesus said that the wine within the cup represented his blood that would be shed for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. On the contrary, Colossians 2 says that we are to no longer judge according to Sabbaths. This means that the Sabbath is no longer binding if we cannot judge anyone for not keeping it.

Colossians 2

Paul’s language shows he was referencing the shadowy ceremonies that pointed forward to and ended at the cross. Notice again, carefully, his words in Colossians 2:14: “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Paul mentions that these laws were “against us” and “contrary” to us. Would it be contrary to Christians to refrain from idolatry, using God’s name in vain, dishonoring parents, murder, theft, adultery, lying, and coveting—the sins rebuked by the Ten Commandments?, no of course not ? Thus, the apostle must have been talking of another law—a law that enjoined food offerings, drink offerings, the observance of festivals, new moons, and yearly sabbaths. (ceremonial sabbaths)

Why would the observance of these ceremonies after the death of Christ be contrary to the Christian faith? The yearly sabbath of the Passover involved killing a lamb that represented Jesus, the Lamb of God. The apostle Paul taught directly, “Indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Thus, to keep offering a sacrificial lamb after His death would be to imply that Jesus had not accomplished atonement. Such an observance would be contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Many other shadowy requirements of the ceremonial law pointed to the death of Jesus on the cross, as well. All these festivals, food and drink offerings, and sabbaths that were nailed to the cross, Paul declared to be “a shadow of things to come.” Then he adds, "But the substance is of Christ." That is, the substance that cast these shadows was Christ’s body on the cross.

Are the 10 Commandments contrary to us? No

Do you think it was just coincidence that Jesus rested in the tomb on the 7th Sabbath????? No, it is His Sabbath and He's Lord of it. He rested from all His creation works on His Sabbath and He rested from all His redemptive work on His Sabbath.

Luke 23 records that the women came to the tomb on Friday evening just before the sun was going to set to anoint Jesus’ body with spices and ointment and then “rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.”

So Jesus Himself prior to His resurrection in His death was keeping the Sabbath.

You never did answer a simple yes or no question.

Are we to ever ignore or dismiss anything God has blessed and sanctified?

?If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. "

He spoke the 10 Commandments, He wrote them with His own finger, He specifically stated remember, throughout His entire life He kept the 7th day Sabbath, in His death He rested in the tomb on His Sabbath.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

The Law, the 10 ... He lived them (a doer) .... He was our earthly living example, perfect in every way .... what else do you need?

"but we don't see such a command. " because we were already told to remember it, Does it mean anything to you at all the He states He is Lord (master) over the Sabbath? Isn't that enough to once again remind you/us? Why does He say that?

He's the Lord .... Lord of the Sabbath created it, blessed it and sanctified it.

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change.

Hebrews 13:8-25
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
When do you believe the New Covenant started?
I believe it happens at Christ's death because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom, and Jesus said that the wine within the cup represented his blood that would be shed for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. On the contrary, Colossians 2 says that we are to no longer judge according to Sabbaths. This means that the Sabbath is no longer binding if we cannot judge anyone for not keeping it.

Colossians 2

Paul’s language shows he was referencing the shadowy ceremonies that pointed forward to and ended at the cross. Notice again, carefully, his words in Colossians 2:14: “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Paul mentions that these laws were “against us” and “contrary” to us. Would it be contrary to Christians to refrain from idolatry, using God’s name in vain, dishonoring parents, murder, theft, adultery, lying, and coveting—the sins rebuked by the Ten Commandments?, no of course not ? Thus, the apostle must have been talking of another law—a law that enjoined food offerings, drink offerings, the observance of festivals, new moons, and yearly sabbaths. (ceremonial sabbaths)

Why would the observance of these ceremonies after the death of Christ be contrary to the Christian faith? The yearly sabbath of the Passover involved killing a lamb that represented Jesus, the Lamb of God. The apostle Paul taught directly, “Indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Thus, to keep offering a sacrificial lamb after His death would be to imply that Jesus had not accomplished atonement. Such an observance would be contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Many other shadowy requirements of the ceremonial law pointed to the death of Jesus on the cross, as well. All these festivals, food and drink offerings, and sabbaths that were nailed to the cross, Paul declared to be “a shadow of things to come.” Then he adds, "But the substance is of Christ." That is, the substance that cast these shadows was Christ’s body on the cross.

Are the 10 Commandments contrary to us? No

Do you think it was just coincidence that Jesus rested in the tomb on the 7th Sabbath????? No, it is His Sabbath and He's Lord of it. He rested from all His creation works on His Sabbath and He rested from all His redemptive work on His Sabbath.

Luke 23 records that the women came to the tomb on Friday evening just before the sun was going to set to anoint Jesus’ body with spices and ointment and then “rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.”

So Jesus Himself prior to His resurrection in His death was keeping the Sabbath.

You never did answer a simple yes or no question.

Are we to ever ignore or dismiss anything God has blessed and sanctified?

?If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. "

He spoke the 10 Commandments, He wrote them with His own finger, He specifically stated remember, throughout His entire life He kept the 7th day Sabbath, in His death He rested in the tomb on His Sabbath.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

The Law, the 10 ... He lived them (a doer) .... He was our earthly living example, perfect in every way .... what else do you need?

"but we don't see such a command. " because we were already told to remember it, Does it mean anything to you at all the He states He is Lord (master) over the Sabbath? Isn't that enough to once again remind you/us? Why does He say that?

He's the Lord .... Lord of the Sabbath created it, blessed it and sanctified it.

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change.

Hebrews 13:8-25
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

eleos1954 · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You also said we are not under the penalty of the Law but you did not quote any verse or passage to back up that statement.

The wages of sin (transgression of the law) is death ... in Christ we have eternal life.

1 John 2:2 (KJV) reads: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

We are off topic .... so start another topic if you want

St_Worm2 · Jul 10, 2019

Hi @Bible Highlighter, I thought this might prove to be useful. It's an excerpt from a teaching by Dr. R. C. Sproul.

THE THREEFOLD USE OF THE LAW
by R.C. Sproul

Every Christian wrestles with the question, how does the Old Testament law relate to my life? Is the Old Testament law irrelevant to Christians or is there some sense in which we are still bound by portions of it? As the heresy of antinomianism becomes ever more pervasive in our culture, the need to answer these questions grows increasingly urgent.

The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. On the one hand, the law of God reflects and mirrors the perfect righteousness of God. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness. Augustine wrote, “The law orders, that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.” The law highlights our weakness so that we might seek the strength found in Christ. Here the law acts as a severe schoolmaster who drives us to Christ.

A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust. Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.” The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.

The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.

By studying or meditating on the law of God, we attend the school of righteousness. We learn what pleases God and what offends Him. The moral law that God reveals in Scripture is always binding upon us. Our redemption is from the curse of God’s law, not from our duty to obey it. We are justified, not because of our obedience to the law, but in order that we may become obedient to God’s law. To love Christ is to keep His commandments. To love God is to obey His law.

Summary
1. The church today has been invaded by antinomianism, which weakens, rejects, or distorts the law of God.
2. The law of God is a mirror of God’s holiness and our unrighteousness. It serves to reveal to us our need of a savior.
3. The law of God is a restraint against sin.
4. The law of God reveals what is pleasing and what is offensive to God.
5. The Christian is to love the law of God and to obey the moral law of God.

Biblical passages for reflection:
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 119:9-16
Romans 7:7-25
Romans 8:3-4
1 Corinthians 7:19
Galatians 3:24

--David
p.s. - I thought I'd add this thought as well.

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Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

LoreneDD said:
You have said that circumscision and sabbath rest is not binding on Christians and yet a circumcised heart is the christian condition.

In regards to the Sabbath:

The OT = Literal Saturday Sabbath keeping after saving faith in the Lord.
The NT = Sabbath rest in Christ (i.e. a Metaphor of the OT Sabbath).

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

In regards to circumcision:

The OT = Literal circumcision of the flesh after saving faith in the Lord.
The NT = Metaphorical circumcision of the heart only now.

Note: The words "circumcision of the heart" in the OT is another phrase for "born again." Hence, why Jesus acted surprised why Nicodemus did not know about being born again.

The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

You said:
There was a rest, there is a rest and there is one to follow is also christian doctrine. But you seem to ignore all of that.

Please clarify this statement in more detail.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

You said:
AND to say Christ is not our example.

You totally misread what I had written. I never said that Christ was not our example. I believe Christ is our example. I said there are limits to Christ being our example in regards to certain things like Him being God, dying on the cross for man's sins, etc.

You said:
His example is in the suffering, which is what Peter tells us.

Right, and I am not denying that believers are to suffer as Christ had suffered.
But most in the Belief Alone camp do not believe that we have to pick up our cross, deny ourselves, and to follow Jesus so as to be worthy of Him.

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

Most Belief Alone Proponents think they can commit grievous sin (or break God's laws) and still be saved while doing so.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

dqhall said:
In Leviticus 15:19-28 there are laws about a woman who is in her period. She was considered unclean for seven days. No one was allowed to sit on her bed or chair without being considered unclean. Anyone who touched those who had been made unclean might also be made unclean. One who was unclean during the first century was supposed to wash in a mikveh. These were pools carved into the limestone bedrock around the temple and in the city of Jerusalem. Archaeologists found pools near a first century synagogue at Magdala. There is a Talmudic book with arguments about ritual cleanness, uncleanness and a woman’s monthly period called Niddah. Some Jews carried the superstition to the point they thought this uncleanness could jump from object to object. Jews did not want to go into a Gentile’s house as they thought these people who did not know the law were unclean. This law was not perfect in all its aspects, the stagnant mikveh pools they shared for ritual cleansing were vectors for transmission of bacterial infections. There was not only life in the law, but death in the law.

The New Testament is based on obedience to God.

First, I really do not believe stuff outside of the Bible if it is far out there or if it tends to lean towards building wrong doctrinal thinking. Personally, I do not believe God would allow for men to get diseases by the ceremonial washing pools if they followed God's instructions the right way. God protects his people if they obey Him.

Second, death by the Law was only if you disobeyed God's laws and not if you obeyed them. God punishes disobedience and rewards obedience because He is a fair, just, and good God. Yes, a person can still die even while obeying God's laws, but their death is not because they are obeying His laws but for another more noble reason.

"...in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:11).

You seem to think we get punished or to have diseases in keeping the Law of the Lord. Yet, the Bible says in keeping them, there is great reward.

What do you think would have happened if Adam and Eve obeyed God's command?

Would they have died spiritually anyway?

No, of course not.

We learn that our faithfulness to God (obeying) results in being rewarded (Matthew 25:21), and that our being unprofitable for God's kingdom (disobeying) leads to being cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30).

Side Note:

Please, keep in mind that I am not saying we have to go back and follow the Old Law (the 615 laws within the Law of Moses given to Israel), but that the principle of truth behind the Old Law remains the same under the New Laws (or commands) within the New Covenant (which are given to us by Jesus and His followers). "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Colossians 2

Paul’s language shows he was referencing the shadowy ceremonies that pointed forward to and ended at the cross. Notice again, carefully, his words in Colossians 2:14: “Having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” Paul mentions that these laws were “against us” and “contrary” to us. Would it be contrary to Christians to refrain from idolatry, using God’s name in vain, dishonoring parents, murder, theft, adultery, lying, and coveting—the sins rebuked by the Ten Commandments?, no of course not ? Thus, the apostle must have been talking of another law—a law that enjoined food offerings, drink offerings, the observance of festivals, new moons, and yearly sabbaths. (ceremonial sabbaths)

Why would the observance of these ceremonies after the death of Christ be contrary to the Christian faith? The yearly sabbath of the Passover involved killing a lamb that represented Jesus, the Lamb of God. The apostle Paul taught directly, “Indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). Thus, to keep offering a sacrificial lamb after His death would be to imply that Jesus had not accomplished atonement. Such an observance would be contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Many other shadowy requirements of the ceremonial law pointed to the death of Jesus on the cross, as well. All these festivals, food and drink offerings, and sabbaths that were nailed to the cross, Paul declared to be “a shadow of things to come.” Then he adds, "But the substance is of Christ." That is, the substance that cast these shadows was Christ’s body on the cross.

In regards to the different Typifications of Christ in the OT:
You are not telling me anything new here, brother. I am aware of these.

Where we disagree on is Colossians 2:14-16. Verse 16 clearly says we are not to judge according to Sabbaths. Verse 14 says Christ nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. It's not easy to always keep the Saturday Sabbath. What if you are lost in a jungle and you lose track of what day it is?

You said:
Are the 10 Commandments contrary to us? No

Aspects of the Moral Law were automatically obeyed by the Gentiles without them having the written Law of Moses.

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Romans 2:14).

Keeping the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" makes us free from the "Law of Sin and Death." In other words, obeying the NT Law, makes us free from the OT Law that brought death (Note: The Sabbath brought death if you did not obey it).

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

It is written,

3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

Verse 4 talks about a righteous aspect or part of the Law that can be fulfilled in us by walking after the Spirit. How can we fulfill this righteousness of the Law?

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law." (Romans 13:8).

So loving one another fulfills the Old Law.

The Sabbath is a ceremonial law, and not a moral law because a moral law is anything that you know to do by nature or without anyone telling you to do it. Ceremonial laws are something God specifically tells you to do. The ceremonial laws of the OT were against us because sometimes they involved many regulations and details in how they were to be performed or obeyed. So out of the 10 commandments, 9 are moral laws, and 1 (the Sabbath) is a ceremonial law. I believe the ceremonial laws like the Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animals sacrifices, etc. were against us because they were not always easy to keep because there were specific details involved in keeping them and you had to read up on them properly to get it.

You said:
Do you think it was just coincidence that Jesus rested in the tomb on the 7th Sabbath????? No, it is His Sabbath and He's Lord of it. He rested from all His creation works on His Sabbath and He rested from all His redemptive work on His Sabbath.
Luke 23 records that the women came to the tomb on Friday evening just before the sun was going to set to anoint Jesus’ body with spices and ointment and then “rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.”

So Jesus Himself prior to His resurrection in His death was keeping the Sabbath.

I believe the physical body of Jesus died at 3:00PM on Wednesday, and HE rose on the Saturday Sabbath at exactly 3:00PM (i.e. 72 hours or 3 days and 3 nights exactly). Here is my chronology explaining it.

My New Chronology on the Passion Week

So I am not in disagreement of the importance of the Sabbath. I see the Sabbath as a shadow pointing to the body (Whose body that casts that shadow as being Christ). Jesus rose on the Sabbath to show that we can now rest in Him because His redemptive work was going to be complete that day with His ascension to the Father (after He told Mary not to touch Him).

You said:
You never did answer a simple yes or no question.

Did Jesus always answer with a... "yes" or "no"?

You said:
Are we to ever ignore or dismiss anything God has blessed and sanctified?

?If this is so, then we should expect to see a Saturday Sabbath command repeated after Christ's death if is still binding today, but we don't see such a command. "

He spoke the 10 Commandments, He wrote them with His own finger, He specifically stated remember, throughout His entire life He kept the 7th day Sabbath, in His death He rested in the tomb on His Sabbath.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead on the Saturday Sabbath and He was not resting that whole time. A Wednesday crucifixion, and a Saturday resurrection is the only model that works for a precise 72 hour time period to fit within the biblical facts we are given.

You said:
Matthew 4:4
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

This is saying man shall live spiritually by obeying God's Word.
This does not mean that covenants cannot change along with it's respective laws changing (Hebrews 7:12, Colossians 2:14-16).

Paul says,

9 "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
(Galatians 4:9-10).

Keeping the Saturday Sabbath is an observance of days. Paul is saying these are the weak and beggarly elements that the Galatians were desiring to be in bondage by. Paul says that their doing so made him feel afraid for them. Granted, when the Old Covenant was in effect (before Christ's death), this command had to be obeyed. But not in the New Covenant. Things have changed (Hebrews 7:12).

You said:
James 1:25
But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

Nowhere does James mention the Saturday Sabbath in James 1.

You said:
The Law, the 10 ... He lived them (a doer) .... He was our earthly living example, perfect in every way .... what else do you need?

"but we don't see such a command. " because we were already told to remember it, Does it mean anything to you at all the He states He is Lord (master) over the Sabbath? Isn't that enough to once again remind you/us? Why does He say that?

He's the Lord .... Lord of the Sabbath created it, blessed it and sanctified it.

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change.

Hebrews 13:8-25
8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus told another to reconcile with his brother first before offering a gift (i.e. an animal sacrifice) at the altar.

23 "Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (Matthew 5:23-24).

Yet, we know the temple veil is torn and the priesthood and it's animal sacrifices had ended. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So yes. God can change things.

I am not sure why you are bothering to make this point. Do you not believe that a Christian is not condemned by the Law?

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You also said we are not under the penalty of the Law but you did not quote any verse or passage to back up that statement.

eleos1954 said:
The wages of sin (transgression of the law) is death ... in Christ we have eternal life.

1 John 2:2 (KJV) reads: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 2

1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

3By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments. 4If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone keeps His word, the love of God has been truly perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him: 6Whoever claims to abide in Him must walk as Jesus walked.

We are off topic .... so start another topic if you want

Not really. We are on topic. If you understand Psalms 19:7-11 in what it says it is teaching that the Law of the Lord is perfect and it can convert the soul. Converting the soul is dealing with Sanctification Process after one is saved by God's grace. Sanctification is the next step or stage in salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God has chosen us to salvation through two things.

#1. Belief of the truth.
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit.

Romans 8:13 says if a person lives after the flesh (sin), they are going to die (die spiritually), and if a person puts to death the deeds of the body (sin) via the Holy Spirit, they are going to live (live spiritually).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Every Christian wrestles with the question, how does the Old Testament law relate to my life? Is the Old Testament law irrelevant to Christians or is there some sense in which we are still bound by portions of it? As the heresy of antinomianism becomes ever more pervasive in our culture, the need to answer these questions grows increasingly urgent.

Antinomianism is defined differently by different people. I prefer to say that there are self professing Christians who hold to the view that a believer can abide in grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) on some level and still be saved. Some believe you can do these sins all the time, and others believe you will do them on occasion over the course of your life and you cannot help but to do them on occasion. They say that because they sin on occasion (the amount of time is never mentioned), they are not living in sin as a lifestyle. In either case, if one says that they cannot be condemned by disobeying God, then it can easily lead a person to think they can sin as much as they want and still be saved. This is the problem with Belief Alone-ism and or OSAS, or any kind of belief that makes room for a Christian to think they can disobey God on some level and still be saved.

You said:
The first purpose of the law is to be a mirror. On the one hand, the law of God reflects and mirrors the perfect righteousness of God. The law tells us much about who God is. Perhaps more important, the law illumines human sinfulness. Augustine wrote, “The law orders, that we, after attempting to do what is ordered, and so feeling our weakness under the law, may learn to implore the help of grace.” The law highlights our weakness so that we might seek the strength found in Christ. Here the law acts as a severe schoolmaster who drives us to Christ.

This is pretty vague. If our disobedience merely drives us to Christ and we do not change, then we really have not come to Christ on His terms. A believer needs to seek forgiveness with the Lord and forsake their sin to have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:7).

You said:
A second purpose for the law is the restraint of evil. The law, in and of itself, cannot change human hearts. It can, however, serve to protect the righteous from the unjust. Calvin says this purpose is “by means of its fearful denunciations and the consequent dread of punishment, to curb those who, unless forced, have no regard for rectitude and justice.” The law allows for a limited measure of justice on this earth, until the last judgment is realized.

It is true that Law Alone without God cannot change anyone. We learn this with Paul recounting his experience as a Pharisee (when he was known as Saul) who tried to keep the Law without Jesus Christ in Romans 7:14-24. As for the Law protecting the righteous from the unjust. Yes, sometimes it can do that. But this is not always the case. In fact, the Scriptures say that all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Yes, the Law can act as a form of limited justice here on Earth, thereby to restrain evil on some level, the sad fact is that things are getting darker and more evil. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 says in the last days perilous times will come. They will have a form of godliness but they will deny the power thereof.

You said:
The third purpose of the law is to reveal what is pleasing to God. As born-again children of God, the law enlightens us as to what is pleasing to our Father, whom we seek to serve. The Christian delights in the law as God Himself delights in it. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15). This is the highest function of the law, to serve as an instrument for the people of God to give Him honor and glory.

By studying or meditating on the law of God, we attend the school of righteousness. We learn what pleases God and what offends Him. The moral law that God reveals in Scripture is always binding upon us. Our redemption is from the curse of God’s law, not from our duty to obey it. We are justified, not because of our obedience to the law, but in order that we may become obedient to God’s law. To love Christ is to keep His commandments. To love God is to obey His law.

This is a contradiction. One cannot say that the Moral Law is binding on us and yet say that our redemption is from the curse (penalty) of God's law. If one even were to perfectly obey themselves and they teach another that obedience to God's laws is optional in the sense that they can sin and still be saved on some level, their blood will be on their hands for teaching that they can disobey God (Whether they want that to happen or not).

You said:
Summary 1. The church today has been invaded by antinomianism, which weakens, rejects, or distorts the law of God.

It's actually worse than you think. Most Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches today do not believe that sin or a lack of obedience to God's commands can cause a loss of salvation. But all they need to do is read verses like Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8 and they may see otherwise if they are open to the truth.

You said:
2. The law of God is a mirror of God’s holiness and our unrighteousness. It serves to reveal to us our need of a savior.

Yes, but God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

You said:
3. The law of God is a restraint against sin.

Only to a limited capacity here on this Earth. In God's kingdom, nothing evil or sinful will be able to enter into the New Jerusalem.

You said:
4. The law of God reveals what is pleasing and what is offensive to God.

Right, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Paul says if any man does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).

You said:
5. The Christian is to love the law of God and to obey the moral law of God.

But if they are not condemned by the Law, then what's the point?
If one can never be condemned by disobeying God's laws on some level, then there is no need to love God by keeping His commandments.

You said:

The words within this pic appears to imply a sin and still be saved type belief on some level. For it is saying that the law is for the self righteous to humble their pride (Which implies that a person cannot live righteously). It also says that the gospel is for the lost (implying that they can remain as lost sinners who continue to disobey God's commands on some level).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Biblical passages for reflection:
Psalms 19:7-11
Psalms 119:9-16
Romans 7:7-25
Romans 8:3-4
1 Corinthians 7:19
Galatians 3:24

These portions of Scripture in no way back up what these two authors in your post have actually said. I believe they are in disagreement with these passages and verses in what they really say.

I can give a detailed breakdown as to why (if you like), but I am not sure you would be interested in hearing it. So I leave that up to you.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 11, 2019

To all:

For clarification:

#1. I do not believe we can obey the Old Law as a whole; I believe that Psalms 19:7-11 has an underlying truth behind that can be applied to our obeying the commands within the New Covenant that comes from Jesus Christ and His followers.

#2. A person cannot obey God's commands without first being saved by God's grace.

#3. The Law converting the soul, enlightening the eyes, etc. (as mentioned in Psalms 19) is only possible if one is obeying God's laws on God's terms (Whereby God would then intervene to convert the soul, enlighten the eyes in harmony with His laws or Word.

For atheists can read the Bible and not get any spiritual message out of it. For them, the words on the page are dead because they are refusing to believe or have faith.

Can some principle of truth from Psalms 19:7-11 be applied today?

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

God is Love

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Wisdom’s child

Wisdom’s child

God is Love

God is Love

God is Love

Simul Justus et Peccator

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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