Matthew 5:17-20 and Acts 15:5-29

Ken Rank

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I'll have to think about that...
Look up the Greek for fulfill in that verse (pleroo) and look in Thayer. Definition 2C or 2D nails it and allows that verse to remain consistent with the rest of Scripture. Remember, if fulfill in that verse means "to do away with" then that verse contradicts itself and the next two verses. And if you don't believe me... just re-translate it that way and see for your. "I have not come to do away with the law, I have come to do away with it." It just doesn't make sense but our anti-law theology clouds our view. IMHO
 
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dqhall

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Hello everyone! I am wondering how different theological traditions reconcile these two passages. Please let me know what tradition you are from and how you go about making sense of this apparent contradiction.

God bless you!
Michael
In Acts 15 the apostles reiterated teaching against sexual immorality. Some of these concepts were found in the Torah/Deuteronomy. Jesus had said that not only is adultery wrong, but to look at a woman with lust (in mind) is wrong. Paul also warned against fornication in his writings.

Jesus did not fully obey the laws against working on the Sabbath (Matthew 12) and his enemies tried to stone him for it (John 5:18). Jesus did not approve of the temple cult and tipped over the tables of the money changers and those who sold sacrificial animals (Matthew 21:12). Jesus rebuked the priests for trying to make temple offerings a higher priority than caring for one's father and mother (Mark 7:10-12).

The Torah/law is in print to this day and people may search the text for anything useful. Jesus did in public about some things. He explained these things to his disciples in private.

The Romans had laws against murder and theft. It was not necessary for these to be restated in Acts 15. The apostles were not in the least bit lawless.

Paul's letters indicate he did not think highly of circumcision one way or the other. To me it seems like expensive unnecessary surgery during a time when a minor operation can cost thousands of dollars. There was higher risk of infection in the first century.
 
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Ken Rank

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Guys, I wrote the following almost 10 years ago. It needs an edit... and there is additional information I can share. That said... it still contains enough information to add to this discussion. Accept or reject... at least consider this as underlying context for Acts 15 and weigh it out accordingly.


Acts 15: A starting point or all that is expected of us?
August 11, 2010 at 9:17 AM

So there is this dispute, and the leaders of the faith come together, talk it out, and write a letter to the Gentiles. The letter gives a few commands, nothing new as all had been previously recorded in scripture, and that should be about the end of it, right? Well, like so much when it comes to scripture, something that seems simple gets touched by man and turned into a mass of confusion. I hope in the next few minutes, to shed some light on the contents of the Acts 15 letter.

The first thing we need to understand is what started the debate to begin with?

Acts 15:1 and certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." (NKJV)

* In this case, "the custom of Moses" is a reference to Torah(God's law or instruction).

Pretty simple, unless you have been circumcised on the 8th day of your life, you can't be saved. What is wrong here? Well, for starters, YOU weren't commanded to be circumcised on the 8th day of your life. That command was given to your father; obviously, an 8 day old baby isn't performing his own bris. Second, when did physical circumcision save us to begin with? The answer to that is it didn't. Like many aspects of the Tanach (OT), circumcisions, the feasts, the sacrifices...these things were pointing to something to come. They were a type, and we need to determine what the anti-type or shadow is. But that is another note.

What we have here are men from Judea, Jews, and as we see throughout the Apostles Writings, Yeshua (Jesus) and Paul to an extent, spend a great deal of time rebuking those things which add to Torah or change it. Not every Pharisee was rebuked, and not every tradition external of scripture is rebuked. For example, in John 10:22-39 it appears that to some degree, Yeshua took part in Hanukkah, the feast or festival of lights. Hanukkah is not a commanded holy day, but it isn't based on pagan origins either. So, we see no rebuke of this extra biblical holiday. No, the rebukes were clearly tied to that which stood against the teachings of scripture. Circumcision unto salvation is not scripture, but we do know where it comes from.

What must I do to be saved a proselyte?

About 50 years before the council of Jerusalem, not too long before the time Yeshua was born, there was a great debate between the two leading teachers of that day, Hillel and Shamai. Beit Hillel (Beit means house but can also be used as school) taught the spirit of the law and his teachings are pretty well aligned to what Yeshua taught when he was here. It should be noted that Paul was taught by Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) who was the grandson of Hillel. Beit Shamai on the other hand, taught the letter of the law, a much stricter interpretation of Torah than what Hillel taught.

So, one day these two heavyweights engage in debate about what should be expected of a proselyte. (A convert to Judaism) Hillel took the softer position, saying that a person must abstain from idols, from fornication, from blood and food offered to idols. (Does that all sound familiar?) He also added that a person must know the two great commands, because as Yeshua said in Matthew 22:40, "all Torah and the Prophets hang on knowing we are to love God and neighbor." (Paraphrased)

Shamai however was more of a hardliner. He also took the same positions Hillel took but he added the need to know ALL 613 commands rather than just the "big two," AND that a proselyte would need to be circumcised in order to become a Jew. In the end, Shamai's position became hallacha or "Jewish law."

*It should be noted that both men agreed that these were what was expected for the new convert and that the new convert would learn more as they grow.

From this you should be able to see that the men from Judea that confronted Paul and Barnabas were of the school of Shamai or were at least adhering to this 50 year old Jewish law and were applying it to those non-Jews who were following Yeshua. As a quick side note, we must understand that the first 30-40 years of the faith had gentiles or non-Jews going into the synagogues on Sabbath to hear Torah read. In practice, there was no difference between an orthodox Jew and a Yeshua following Jew OR gentile. So because the non-Jews were going to the synagogues, many of what we would now call orthodox Jews placed their expectations on these gentiles... and one of those expectations was "get circumcised to be saved."

Is there more than these four?

When the cases had been made before the council, a ruling was handed down and a letter was drafted. It was to be sent to the gentiles/nations, and the main point was:

Act 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. (NKJV)

Many today, especially in the church, teach that the above was all that was expected of the gentile believer in Yeshua. Well, as you would expect, I don't agree. Where do we see not to serve another god? Where does it say not to steal? Is it OK to bear false witness now? Obviously, when just a little reason it applied, we can clearly see that there is more that is expected of us than what is written in the Acts 15 letter. I submit that this council convened to right an old wrong! I submit that the same argument that occurred 50 years before this council came together, was argued one more time and reversed. The pagans in this time period fornicated with pagan temple prostitutes, made offerings to idols and ate things sacrificed to idols, etc. By asking that a new gentile believer in Yeshua to abstain from these things, you were "setting them apart" from their pagan brethren. They clearly were then to be taught what was expected of them, they were to "STUDY to show themselves approved as workman unto God."

I conclude then, that the letter in Acts 15 was the starting point, not the finish line.

Peace to you.
Ken
 
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His student

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Hello everyone! I am wondering how different theological traditions reconcile these two passages. Please let me know what tradition you are from and how you go about making sense of this apparent contradiction. God bless you! Michael
I don't see where there is anything to reconcile.

Jesus fulfilled the law so that people could gain a righteousness greater than that of the Pharisees by believing on what He did in that fulfillment as a means to justify them before God in the final judgment.

In Matthew the Lord tells us that He will take care of things for us which we are not able to do for ourselves even if we were pharisees (good as those things may be).

Then in Acts He tells us that He has done so and that we need now only believe that He has in order to be justified.

So far as my "theological traditions" go - they are simply "salvation by grace through faith". Hence my ease in seeing that there are no contradictions to be reconciled in the two passages mentioned in the OP.

Those who have never grasped and rested in the simple gospel message - will no doubt continue to find difficulty reconciling such passages.
 
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Ken Rank

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So far as my "theological traditions" go - they are simply "salvation by grace through faith". Hence my ease in seeing that there are no contradictions to be reconciled in the two passages mentioned in the OP.

Those who have never grasped and rested in the simple gospel message - will no doubt continue to find difficulty reconciling such passages.
You then see Acts 15 as pertaining to you? Do you refrain from things strangled? I mean, do you make sure the animal was killed properly? Do you avoid blood? Or thing offered to idols? Do you CHECK to make sure or just shrug and say, "Jesus did it all?" If so, fine... but then why would they write the Acts 15 letter after he ascended?
 
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His student

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You then see Acts 15 as pertaining to you? Do you refrain from things strangled? I mean, do you make sure the animal was killed properly? Do you avoid blood? Or thing offered to idols?
Those directives by James were not addressed to me. I am not influenced by them directly let alone bound by them.

I am, however, influenced indirectly by reading his opinion and that of the Holy Spirit Who inspired it.

In so much as I am able - I refrain from things that will make others stumble - particularly as it pertains to their reception of the gospel.
Do you CHECK to make sure or just shrug and say, "Jesus did it all?" If so, fine... but then why would they write the Acts 15 letter after he ascended?
I seldom just "shrug" when being taught by the Holy Spirit from His Word. I take His advice seriously.

The issue then, as it is now, is being sensitive to our witness before the world. The answer to your question is found in vs. 19-21.

"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Acts 15:19-21

The Christians in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia were told to be sensitive to things which would make the Jews stumble. They were so admonished in the context of being told that salvation was by grace through faith and not by keeping the law.

Proper understanding of the issues here isn't exactly spiritual rocket surgery - unless there is an agenda involved which keeps people from understanding it. :)
 
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Ken Rank

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Those directives by James were not addressed to me. I am not influenced by them directly let alone bound by them.
They weren't directives of James... they were a spirit led decision decided by a counsel that James led. And I am intrigued by you thinking they are not for you seeing this was a decision that dealt with the salvation of gentiles. Remember the beginning of the chapter... certain Jews (from Beit Shammai) came to Paul and Barnabas and were pushing circumcision unto salvation for gentiles. The Acts 15 letter was in response to THAT and nothing else.

"Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” Acts 15:19-21

The Christians in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia were told to be sensitive to things which would make the Jews stumble. They were so admonished in the context of being told that salvation was by grace through faith and not by keeping the law.
It doesn't say anything about being "sensitive" to them or anything else, that word isn't in there. The idea that Moses (an idiomatic word in this case used for Torah) is brought into the discussion and said to be preached every Sabbath in context was saying..."start with these 4 and then go and learn the rest." You would do well to take 5 minutes from your life and read this... (a post of mine from yesterday) as this isn't preached in churches and yet is historically accurate and context affecting!

Proper understanding of the issues here isn't exactly spiritual rocket surgery - unless there is an agenda involved which keeps people from understanding it. :)
Nice smiley face added to deter from the fact that you just took a shot at the intelligence of myself and anyone reading WHO DOESN'T AGREE WITH YOU. You're right, it isn't rocket science, but unless you understand the arguments that were happening in that day at that time by those people... you don't have context. Unless, of course, you think "context" is the verse before and after. LOL.

Take 5 minutes... even if you don't agree you might come to at least realize the rocket science comment was not called for.
 
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His student

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They weren't directives of James... they were a spirit led decision decided by a counsel that James led.
Well - duhhh!
I am intrigued by you thinking they are not for you seeing this was a decision that dealt with the salvation of gentiles.
The decision concerning circumcision's necessity for salvation was.

The other directives were parenthetical. No one was teaching that these other things were or were not necessary for salvation. That no one includes both those who were troubling the believers and James and the council.
Remember the beginning of the chapter... certain Jews (from Beit Shammai) came to Paul and Barnabas and were pushing circumcision unto salvation for gentiles.
Of course. I just alluded to it. I have read it many times for context just as you have. I come to a different conclusion than you have come to because of your (as I charged before) "agenda".
The Acts 15 letter was in response to THAT and nothing else.
The letter of response sent North from James and the boys was in response to that false salvation requirement. The contents of Acts 15 is a teaching for us today - if we will but rightly discern it.
It doesn't say anything about being "sensitive" to them or anything else, that word isn't in there.
Well - duhhh.
The idea that Moses (an idiomatic word in this case used for Torah) is brought into the discussion and said to be preached every Sabbath in context was saying..."start with these 4 and then go and learn the rest."
Just as my response was to reading the post you referred me to - baloney.
You would do well to take 5 minutes from your life and read this... (a post of mine from yesterday) as this isn't preached in churches and yet is historically accurate and context affecting!
Thank God it isn't preached in many churches today. There's a reason for that. It's baloney.
unless you understand the arguments that were happening in that day at that time by those people... you don't have context. Unless, of course, you think "context" is the verse before and after.
I agree.

That's why I always consider the entire context when developing or critiquing doctrine. That's what I did concerning your false doctrine.
Take 5 minutes... even if you don't agree you might come to at least realize the rocket science comment was not called for.
I did take the time.

The rocket science comment was called for.

You obviously lack a basic understanding of the requirements for salvation and the gospel of grace.

As I see it -that wouldn't be very hard to get straight it were not for your works oriented agenda. I have said so before and I see no reason to view things otherwise.
 
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Ken Rank

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Well - duhhh!

The decision concerning circumcision's necessity for salvation was.

The other directives were parenthetical. No one was teaching that these other things were or were not necessary for salvation. That no one includes both those who were troubling the believers and James and the council.

Of course. I just alluded to it. I have read it many times for context just as you have. I come to a different conclusion than you have come to because of your (as I charged before) "agenda".

The letter of response sent North from James and the boys was in response to that false salvation requirement. The contents of Acts 15 is a teaching for us today - if we will but rightly discern it.

Well - duhhh.

Just as my response was to reading the post you referred me to - baloney.

Thank God it isn't preached in many churches today. There's a reason for that. It's baloney.

I agree.

That's why I always consider the entire context when developing or critiquing doctrine. That's what I did concerning your false doctrine.

I did take the time.

The rocket science comment was called for.

You obviously lack a basic understanding of the requirements for salvation and the gospel of grace.

As I see it -that wouldn't be very hard to get straight it were not for your works oriented agenda. I have said so before and I see no reason to view things otherwise.
We're done. This is a forum where folks come together and have a conversation. All you want to do is demean what others believe because what you believe is truly the standard by which all others are to be judged. I won't reply to you again because you are not capable of having an adult conversation. Take care.
 
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jerry kelso

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I agree that it is important to notice the context. However, 1 John is different letter/book entirely than the Gospel of John. I think one should be careful when drawing a line between too separate books/letters.

I think 1 John 5:3 is on itself true, if we love God, we keep His commandments. Now the question is, what are God’s commandments. Certainly, they are the ten Commandments that are included in Love God and your neighbor. All God’s commandments are in “love your neighbor as yourself”, because:

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

But does that include also the whole Law of Moses? I think it does. Reason why I think so is, because Jesus said:

"Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

But, I think it is important to notice, keeping the law is not what saves.


1213,

1. We are not under the Mosaic and Jesus taught the Mosaic Law.
Matthew 5:17.
Galatians 4:4 He was born of a woman made under the law.

2. Romans 13:8-10 is about the law of love which fulfills those commandments that were in the Old Testament law of Moses.
But, the Mosaic law was abolished 2 Corinthians 3:13-16, Hebrews 8:6-7.

3. As a New Covenant believer we do not abide under the Ten Commandments under the Mosaic law.
Those commandments are now for the ungodly 1 Timothy 1:9-11.
As a Christian we should not have to be subdued by the law of thou shalt not. We don’t do them because of the law of love and who we are in Christ and the power of his finished work at the cross under the New Covenant which I have is built on better promises.

4. The law couldn’t save a law keeper in the first place Romans 4:1-8. Jerry Kelso
 
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Ken Rank

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1213,

1. We are not under the Mosaic and Jesus taught the Mosaic Law.
Matthew 5:17.
Jerry, respectfully... do you really believe that Matthew 5:17 states that the Mosaic law, as far as we are concerned, has been abolished? Do you believe that is what fulfill means? If yes... let's retranslate the verse based on your belief.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill abolish them them.

If we remove fulfill and replace it with abolish (do away with) the verse contradicts itself and the next 2 verses.
 
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~Zao~

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I came across an interesting article that may shed light on the subject.

“Paul’s focus was not upon the identity of Christ but upon the work of Christ.”

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul

Jesus:

Paul:

1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God

2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ

3. Presented Himself as the Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)
3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ

4. Preached repentance, water baptism, keeping the Law, forgiving others, and faith in who He was as necessary for salvation
4. Preached faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as necessary for salvation

5. Had Jews as His audience (a couple exceptions)
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience

6. Operated under the Mosaic Law
6. Operated under grace

https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

"The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth, Israel and Church. God is sovereign over both His earthly people, Israel, and over His heavenly people, the Church, the body of Christ. We both have one Master. Each has its own glory and purpose before God. The glory of God is in heterogeneity and in homogeneity. Both Israel and the Church are citizens of the kingdom of God as Paul expressed it–the rule of God over all creation. We share different blessings and serve under different contexts but have the same Lord. Paul taught this reality in his great example of the olive tree7 in Romans 11.”

Perhaps comments from this perspective might help.
 
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GospelS

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And what does keeping the Spirit of the Law look like? For example, how do we keep the Spirit of Leviticus 19:19? Or Deuteronomy 25:11-12? I ask this because I wrestle with the idea that we are related to these verses at all... I believe we are to be obedient to His Holy Spirit and the NT writings, and that is our practical righteousness (as opposed to our positional righteousness before God which is secure in Christ).

Don't wrestle within yourself. We do not have all wisdom and knowledge to understand everything. Yes, some verses could not be related because God gives us what we need according to the times and seasons we live in.

As for Leviticus 19:19, do not mate different kinds of animals. This is to anyone who breeds animals (breeders) The spirit of the law is not to exploit/misuse God's creation.
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. This is to anyone who does farming. Farmers usually do this. They keep a separate field/area for each variety of plants.
And about wearing cloth made of two kinds of material (assuming it was only wool and linen in those days), I do not know for sure. Only God knows why and the harm in wearing these two kinds of cloth material together.

As for Deuteronomy 25:11-12, that is a situation when a person does not keep the spirit of the law of other commandments God gave. I mean why would men come to a point of fighting with one another when they love their neighbor as themselves. When a person loves others like Jesus did, then he/she don't have to worry about keeping Deuteronomy 25:11-12. God's wants us to be peacemakers in this present age of grace.

Do the restrictions listed in Acts 15:20 and 15:28-29 have the weight of law, though?

The law of the Lord is not a weight of law to those who received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Righteous delight in the law of the Lord (Psalm 1:2). His yoke is easy and His burden is light (Matthew 11:30). It is a weight of law for those who live under the law and those who deny grace of God.
 
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His student

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We're done. This is a forum where folks come together and have a conversation. All you want to do is demean what others believe because what you believe is truly the standard by which all others are to be judged. I won't reply to you again because you are not capable of having an adult conversation. Take care.
"Well - duhhh" was short hand for "why are you stating the obvious?". That's something you did several times in your post to me.

When someone does what you did - it is making the assumption and the allegation that I don't agree with the scriptures cited or that I didn't or won't read them.

I suppose that I could have taken the time to tell you all about how such an assumption was wrong. But I chose the short version.

Sorry you were so offended by it that you put me on ignore.

I remind you that you were the one who addressed me concerning my view that I expressed to another member to the effect that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the law so we won't have to even though keeping that law would be a good thing for us to do in many cases (so long as we don't try to do it to gain salvation in the most basic sense).

It would be nice if you'd take the time to tell us why you believe that salvation through faith in the work of the Jewish messiah requires that gentiles also abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood as well as further study and application of the Torah in their lives for that work to be effective for that salvation.

If you happen to read this, perhaps you will take the time to explain exactly what your version of the basic gospel is that we are to preach to people in the farthest reaches of the 10/40 window who wouldn't know the Jewish Torah from a nursery rhyme.

Since I'm likely on your ignore list by now - perhaps someone else here will pin you down with the same kind of basic questions rather than let you carry on with your nonsense without a very direct challenge.

P.S.
IMO the ignore feature here in the forum accomplishes nothing for the one using it except keep them from seeing what another person is saying on a subject.

Far wiser, as I see it, to just limit your reading of the other person's posts if you are easily offended by them and at least be able to be notified if they mention you directly or comment on one of your posts.

To me that seems to be another "well duhhh" thing - kind of a "no-brainer" thing as it were. But to each his own.
 
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~Zao~

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I came across an interesting article that may shed light on the subject.

“Paul’s focus was not upon the identity of Christ but upon the work of Christ.”

Differences of the Ministries of Jesus and Paul

Jesus:

Paul:

1. Preached the gospel of the kingdom
1. Preached the gospel of the grace of God

2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as Israel’s prophetic earthly kingdom
2. Defined the “kingdom of heaven” as the heavenly position of the body of Christ

3. Presented Himself as the Messiah and King of the Jews (Israel)
3. Presented Jesus as the risen Lord, Head of the Church, the body of Christ

4. Preached repentance, water baptism, keeping the Law, forgiving others, and faith in who He was as necessary for salvation
4. Preached faith alone in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as necessary for salvation

5. Had Jews as His audience (a couple exceptions)
5. Had Gentiles as his primary audience

6. Operated under the Mosaic Law
6. Operated under grace

https://doctrine.org/jesus-vs-paul

"The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord of heaven and earth, Israel and Church. God is sovereign over both His earthly people, Israel, and over His heavenly people, the Church, the body of Christ. We both have one Master. Each has its own glory and purpose before God. The glory of God is in heterogeneity and in homogeneity. Both Israel and the Church are citizens of the kingdom of God as Paul expressed it–the rule of God over all creation. We share different blessings and serve under different contexts but have the same Lord. Paul taught this reality in his great example of the olive tree7 in Romans 11.”

Perhaps comments from this perspective might help.
Paul was constantly proving what he believed by referring to the OT as proof. Then he compared his truth to his experience. Whereas John the disciple was more deductive that what he saw, others could see also.

Obviously I’m arguing that the last person to add to the bible was also including a final message from the Risen Lord. John’s message was that of love as the natural outflow of God toward the salvation of the world that He loved so dearly. Sin is seen as darkness, the absence of sin is seen as light. Simply, John’s message : walking in the light is fellowship with God. Dwelling with God is John’s point of highest achievement and that hasn’t changed. Abiding in Christ I see as the central message of both.

Both are dealing with the work of Christ. John was less theological but still inclusive of the results of death to produce new life. Paul emphasis righteousness thru justification. Sin is in the flesh and needs to be overcome by the spirit. John says very much the same. Rather than justification and righteousness John says birth from God and life.

Paul argues from Jewish legalism while John seems to have already relinquished it. The saving power of faith is in the acceptance of Christ, as our Lord, Saviour, and mediator of the new creation, which is to my knowledge is seen in both Paul and John.

From this brief outline I think it’s plain to see we have not one, but two great teachers of the Christian faith.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry, respectfully... do you really believe that Matthew 5:17 states that the Mosaic law, as far as we are concerned, has been abolished? Do you believe that is what fulfill means? If yes... let's retranslate the verse based on your belief.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill abolish them them.

If we remove fulfill and replace it with abolish (do away with) the verse contradicts itself and the next 2 verses.

kenrank,

1. Jesus was under the Mosaic which the church of today has never been under and will never be for it has been abolished 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.

2. Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law according to his messiahship until he met the goal and served its purpose.
Christ fulfilled the law completely at Calvary.
Hebrews 8:6 Christ was the mediator of the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8:7 If the old covenant had not been faultless there would be no reason to look for the second.

3. Christ fulfilled the law during his ministry and at the cross.
Since he fulfilled the purpose it was automatically done away and abolished and taken out of the way so the New Covenant could take its place that was built on better promises.
So Christ fulfilled the law and he personally didn’t have to abolish it. That happened to have the New Covenant could takes its place.

4. One has to understand the different context of scripture and how to harmonize them together. Jerry Kelso
 
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~Zao~

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Paul was constantly proving what he believed by referring to the OT as proof. Then he compared his truth to his experience. Whereas John the disciple was more deductive that what he saw, others could see also.

Obviously I’m arguing that the last person to add to the bible was also including a final message from the Risen Lord. John’s message was that of love as the natural outflow of God toward the salvation of the world that He loved so dearly. Sin is seen as darkness, the absence of sin is seen as light. Simply, John’s message : walking in the light is fellowship with God. Dwelling with God is John’s point of highest achievement and that hasn’t changed. Abiding in Christ I see as the central message of both.

Both are dealing with the work of Christ. John was less theological but still inclusive of the results of death to produce new life. Paul emphasis righteousness thru justification. Sin is in the flesh and needs to be overcome by the spirit. John says very much the same. Rather than justification and righteousness John says birth from God and life.

Paul argues from Jewish legalism while John seems to have already relinquished it. The saving power of faith is in the acceptance of Christ, as our Lord, Saviour, and mediator of the new creation, which is to my knowledge is seen in both Paul and John.

From this brief outline I think it’s plain to see we have not one, but two great teachers of the Christian faith.
Also I’ve heard that Hebrews and a bunch of other books are excluded from Christianity. Whaa? All scripture is useful for our instruction and if the time is not put in to understand what there talking about that can only be counted as a loss to you. There’s so much worth in Hebrews that relates to the Risen Lord (in fact all of it does). :sigh:
 
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Ken Rank

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kenrank,

1. Jesus was under the Mosaic which the church of today has never been under and will never be for it has been abolished 2 Corinthians 3:13-16.

2. Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law according to his messiahship until he met the goal and served its purpose.
Christ fulfilled the law completely at Calvary.
Hebrews 8:6 Christ was the mediator of the New Covenant.
Hebrews 8:7 If the old covenant had not been faultless there would be no reason to look for the second.

3. Christ fulfilled the law during his ministry and at the cross.
Since he fulfilled the purpose it was automatically done away and abolished and taken out of the way so the New Covenant could take its place that was built on better promises.
So Christ fulfilled the law and he personally didn’t have to abolish it. That happened to have the New Covenant could takes its place.

4. One has to understand the different context of scripture and how to harmonize them together. Jerry Kelso
I have no problem at all harmonizing this. I believe we are to follow the law or by definition we are lawless. We are warned, by Messiah, about a lawless generation. He wasn't talking about the American civil code... he was talking about God's law. And holding this position, I have no issue harmonizing anything you throw at me because every verse you can throw at me I have had answers for for about 15-20 years now. Just as ONE example... you quoted Hebrews 8 and "NEW" covenant. Did you know that in Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) the word for new is chadashah, which is the verb meaning "to renew" that is being used as an adjective to describe the covenant. It isn't "new covenant" it is the everlasting covenant (Psalm 105:8-10) renewed. When you go to the Greek (Hebrews 8:8) you find for the word "new" the Greek "kainos" which means "to make fresh, renew." The Greek word for "brand new" is nehos and that word isn't ever used to describe the covenant. In Hebrew or Greek it is renewed, not new. Again... that is just one example of a hundred I can give.

If we are without law, we are lawless. And, if we are without law there is no need for grace. God does not change.... if He was a God of law long ago He is now because He does not change. If He is a God of grace today, He always has been because He does not change.
 
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~Zao~

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I have no problem at all harmonizing this. I believe we are to follow the law or by definition we are lawless. We are warned, by Messiah, about a lawless generation. He wasn't talking about the American civil code... he was talking about God's law. And holding this position, I have no issue harmonizing anything you throw at me because every verse you can throw at me I have had answers for for about 15-20 years now. Just as ONE example... you quoted Hebrews 8 and "NEW" covenant. Did you know that in Hebrew (Jeremiah 31:31) the word for new is chadashah, which is the verb meaning "to renew" that is being used as an adjective to describe the covenant. It isn't "new covenant" it is the everlasting covenant (Psalm 105:8-10) renewed. When you go to the Greek (Hebrews 8:8) you find for the word "new" the Greek "kainos" which means "to make fresh, renew." The Greek word for "brand new" is nehos and that word isn't ever used to describe the covenant. In Hebrew or Greek it is renewed, not new. Again... that is just one example of a hundred I can give.

If we are without law, we are lawless. And, if we are without law there is no need for grace. God does not change.... if He was a God of law long ago He is now because He does not change. If He is a God of grace today, He always has been because He does not change.
Ken you must know too that the original commandments equal 10. Then the nation rebelled, adding about 600 some odd new ones. It wasn’t the gentiles that were given those. God’s laws remain ... love God and fellow human.
 
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His student

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kenrank,

Jesus was under the Mosaic which the church of today has never been under and will never be......... Jesus came to fulfill the Mosaic law according to his messiahship until he met the goal and served its purpose. Christ fulfilled the law completely at Calvary........... One has to understand the different context of scripture and how to harmonize them together. Jerry Kelso
Jerry -

I'm not sure we can pin Ken down on his version of the gospel message. But it seems to me from what he has said that it is something along the lines of the following.

Belief in the Jewish messiah is but a starting point to be saved. The life of the messiah was a model for us to follow.

We should start with the directives given by James and the council to abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood and continue to study and apply the other things found in the Torah in our lives in order to make the work of the Messiah at Calvary apply to us by showing ourselves approved of God through our keeping of the law.

If that's anywhere close to what he is teaching (and I believe it is from what he has written here and elsewhere) he is dead wrong (and I do mean "dead" wrong).
 
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