Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

DavidPT

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How should it apply to Jesus?

He never sinned - that's how He was able to redeem us from our sin. He took on our physical nature and redeemed us from sin and gave us spiritual LIFE. He reversed the spiritual death that was brought into this world through Adam.

2 Corinthians 5:21 ~ He that knew no sin, became sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Romans 5:17 ~ For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive an abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 ~ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


How or how not a spiritual death might also apply to Christ aside for a moment, let's get back to how this might apply to us then.

If there is a 2nd death, yet no 3rd death, 4th death, etc, what does this apparently tell us? That only one death precedes the 2nd death, obviously. But if the first death is spiritual death, what about physical death then? Spiritual death and physical death adds up to two deaths, not one death. Yet only one death can precede a 2nd one. In order for there to even be a 2nd death, this requires a person has to live twice, and die once. And the following easily explains it---When a person is born, this equals living once. When a person physically dies, this equals dying once. When a person is bodily resurrected by Christ, this equals living twice. If anyone is cast into the LOF, this equals having died twice altogether. But if one tries to also throw a spiritual death into the mix, the math simply doesn't work.
 
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mkgal1

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How or how not a spiritual death might also apply to Christ aside for a moment
Why divert from your original point, which was this?:

DavidPT said:
In my mind that's total nonsense that the first death is spiritual death. That should apply to Jesus as well then, if that is supposed to be the case. So does it then?

....which ignores the righteousness of God and how spiritual death or physical death will NEVER apply to Him.​
 
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mkgal1

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If there is a 2nd death, yet no 3rd death, 4th death, etc, what does this apparently tell us? That only one death precedes the 2nd death, obviously. But if the first death is spiritual death, what about physical death then? Spiritual death and physical death adds up to two deaths, not one death. Yet only one death can precede a 2nd one. In order for there to even be a 2nd death, this requires a person has to live twice, and die once. And the following easily explains it....When a person is born, this equals living once. When a person physically dies, this equals dying once. When a person is bodily resurrected by Christ, this equals living twice. If anyone is cast into the LOF, this equals having died twice altogether. But if one tries to also throw a spiritual death into the mix, the math simply doesn't work.
You're using your own reasoning and not what's been laid out for us in Scripture.

How can we be "brought to life" as in this passage, if we weren't first "dead in our sin"? IOW - we were born dead, spiritually.

John 5:24

(CJB) Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever hears what I am saying and trusts the One who sent me has eternal life -- that is, he will not come up for judgment but has already crossed over from death to life!

Have you not read about being "born again" (because THAT is what's relative to the first death - and being "dead in our sin")?

John 3:3-8 ~ Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the
Spirit gives birth to spirit.
You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 
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mkgal1

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If there is a 2nd death, yet no 3rd death, 4th death, etc, what does this apparently tell us? That only one death precedes the 2nd death, obviously.
No matter how many deaths there are - the first will ALWAYS precede the second.

You honestly seem to get yourself lost in details (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way - just as an observation). I tend to do the same thing.
 
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DavidPT

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Why divert from your original point, which was this?:



....which ignores the righteousness of God and how spiritual death will NEVER apply to Him.​


We are in agreement about this then. It was never my position that spiritual death ever applied to Him. But if the first death is supposed to be spiritual death, but Jesus instead died a physical death, and that we, too, die a physical death, why isn't the first death physical then?

If a thousand years can be the same as one day to God the same way 24 hours is a day to us, then logically Adam died in the very same day he partook of the forbidden fruit. Had he lived over a thousand years though, that would obviously debunk this possibility. Yet, he didn't live over a thousand years.

It might be like saying, if you drink that poison you will die today. That doesn't mean the person necessarily dies the moment they drink it. But if they are dead before the day is up, they indeed died the very same day. In the meantime though, since it took several hours or more to actually physically die, does this mean they died spiritually first?

In the same way then, if Adam died before the day was up, in this case, a thousand years, he indeed died in the same day he partook of the forbidden fruit.
 
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DavidPT

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No matter how many deaths there are - the first will ALWAYS precede the second.

You honestly seem to get yourself lost in details (and I don't mean that in a derogatory way - just as an observation). I tend to do the same thing.


The way my mind typically works, something has to at least be logical if there is a possibility that it might be true. There is no logic to the first death being spiritual if only 1 death can precede a 2nd one, and the fact a physical indeed precedes a 2nd death no matter how you look at it. Then you end up with the math not working out. 1(spiritual death) +1(physical death) +1(2nd death) is not 2, that equals 3. Only 1 + 1 equals 2.
 
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mkgal1

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But if the first death is supposed to be spiritual death, but Jesus instead died a physical death, and that we, too, die a physical death, why isn't the first death physical then?
Maybe because that's not the death that happened in history first. It was Adam & Eve's spiritual death that was the first ever "death". Also....because of sin and death being brought in through Adam.....we are born dead and in need of His spiritual rebirth. It may help to think of the spiritual aspect as completely separate from the physical.
 
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mkgal1

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There is no logic to the first death being spiritual if only 1 death can precede a 2nd one
Maybe you need a break. Isn't that basic math.....1....2?

DavidPT said:
1(spiritual death) +1(physical death) +1(2nd death) is not 2, that equals 3. Only 1 + 1 equals 2
Adam caused the first death, so I'm not sure why you're adding them up like that?
 
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mkgal1

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The verse in question is this one....correct?

Revelation 20:14 ~ Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.


So....the way I understand this is, Adam brought death into our world, but Jesus removed it (by His death He defeated death - two deaths - Adam's and Jesus').

Adam Clarke Commentary
And death and hell were cast into the lake - Death himself is now abolished, and the place for separate spirits no longer needful. All dead bodies and separated souls being rejoined, and no more separation of bodies and souls by death to take place, consequently the existence of these things is no farther necessary.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire - Death and Hades (hell) are here personified, as they are in the previous verse. The declaration is equivalent to the statement in 1 Corinthians 15:26; “
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” See the notes on that passage. The idea is, that death, considered as the separation of soul and body, with all the attendant woes, will exist no more. The reign of Death and Hades, as such, would come to an end, and a new order of things would commence where this would be unknown.




 
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DavidPT

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Maybe you need a break. Isn't that basic math.....1....2?


Adam caused the first death, so I'm not sure why you're adding them up like that?

You're like the 2nd person that has said that to me lately. I just now got back on the internet just recently, after having no internet connection for the past several months. I think I already had a break then. What you see with me is who I am. I don't know if it's a blessing or a curse the manner in which I try and reason through some of these things.

Let me ask this hypothetical. Had Adam never partook of the forbidden fruit, nor Eve either, would they have both still physically died at some point, regardless?


I say no, for at least two reasons. the first being that it would contradict what God said in Genesis 2:17----for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And the 2nd reason involving the following.

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

As to verse 16, obviously it would have to include the tree of life. The tree of life was never off limits while they were still in the garden. It then seems ludicrous that they never ate from it while still in the garden.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Some wrongly conclude, IMO anyway, that if one eats from the tree of life just one time, they then become instant immortals which can't be reversed. I instead think it's the continual eating of the tree of life that allows one to continue living without ever dying. But take access to the tree of life away though, like God did in Genesis 3, one can't help but physically die at some point.

All one has to do is look at Revelation 22, then ask themselves why it shall bare twelve manner of fruits, and yield her fruit every month, for ever and ever, the fact this is within eternity context, if all one has to do is eat from it just one time, and one then is an instant immortal, which then should mean they don't need to eat from it again. So why then is Revelation 22:2 saying what it says?

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month : and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Why does an already saved person need the right to the tree of life though, in the next age?
 
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Seville90210

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How can we be "brought to life" as in this passage, if we weren't first "dead in our sin"? IOW - we were born dead, spiritually.

This is wrong! You need to fully understand what a spiritual death encompasses and not just a separation from God. Nobody is born spiritually dead. If your argument is correct, that would mean God abandon babies out in the streets.

God made man in His own image. God doesn't make sinners. He only gave man the choice of free will and the ability to know good and evil (after Adam ate the fruit) at an accountable age.

Babies and children are not held accountable, goes to heaven upon death and is with God the moment at birth until they "willfully" sin at an "accountable age."

Deuteronomy 1:39
'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:13-14
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.



1. In Romans 1:20 Paul describes recipients of general revelation as being “without excuse.” They can’t blame their unbelief on a lack of evidence. There is sufficient revelation of God’s existence in the natural order to establish the moral accountability of all who witness it. Might this imply that those who are not recipients of general revelation (i.e., infants) are therefore not accountable to God or subject to wrath? In other words, wouldn’t those who die in infancy have an “excuse” in that they neither receive general revelation nor have the capacity to respond to it?

2. There are texts that assert or imply that infants don’t know good or evil and hence lack the capacity to make morally informed—and thus responsible—choices. According to Deuteronomy 1:39 they are said to “have no knowledge of good or evil.” This in itself, however, doesn’t prove infant salvation, for they may still be held liable for the sin of Adam.

3. We must take account of the story of David’s son in 2 Samuel 12:15–23(especially verse 23). The firstborn child of David and Bathsheba is struck by the Lord and dies. In the seven days before his death, David fasts and prays, hoping that “the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.” Yet following the child’s death, David washes, eats, and worships. Asked why he’s responding this way, David says, “Since he has died, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me” (v. 23).

What does it mean when David says “I shall go to him”? If this is merely a reference to the grave or death in the sense that David, too, shall one day die and be buried, one wonders why he’d say something so patently obvious. Also, it appears that David draws some measure of comfort from knowing that he will “go to him.” It’s the reason why David resumes the normal routine of life. It appears to be the reason he ceases from the display of grief. It appears to be a truth from which he derives comfort and encouragement. How could any of this be true if David will simply die like his son? It would, therefore, appear David believed he would be reunited with his deceased infant. Does this imply that at least this one particular infant was saved? Perhaps. But if so, are we justified in constructing a doctrine in which we affirm the salvation of all who die in infancy?

4. There is the consistent testimony of Scripture that people are judged on the basis of sins committed voluntary and consciously in the body (see 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 6:9–10; Rev. 20:11–12). In other words, eternal judgment is always based on conscious rejection of divine revelation (whether in creation, conscience, or Christ) and willful disobedience. Are infants capable of either? There is no explicit account in Scripture of any other judgment based on any other grounds. Thus, those dying in infancy are saved because they do not (indeed cannot) satisfy the conditions for divine judgment.

5. Related to the above point, is what R. A. Webb states:

[If a deceased infant] were sent to hell on no other account than that of original sin, there would be a good reason to the divine mind for the judgment, but the child’s mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering. Under such circumstances, it would know suffering, but it would have no understanding of the reason for its suffering. It could not tell its neighbor—it could not tell itself—why it was so awfully smitten; and consequently the whole meaning and significance of its sufferings, being to it a conscious enigma, the very essence of penalty would be absent, and justice would be disappointed of its vindication. Such an infant could feel that it was in hell, but it could not explain, to its own conscience, why it was there.

6. We have what would appear to be clear biblical evidence that at least some infants are regenerate in the womb, such that if they died in their infancy they would be saved. This provides at least a theoretical basis for considering whether the same may be true of all who die in infancy. As Ronald Nash points out, “If this sort of thing happens even once, it can certainly happen in other cases.” Supporting texts include Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:15.

7. Some have appealed to Matthew 19:13–15 (also Mark 10:13–16; Luke 18:15–17) where Jesus declares, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Is he simply saying if one wishes to be saved one must be as trusting as a child (i.e., devoid of skepticism and arrogance)? In other words, is Jesus merely describing the kind of people who enter the kingdom? Or is he saying these very children were recipients of saving grace? If the latter were true, it would seem to imply Jesus knew that the children he was then receiving would all die in infancy. Is that credible?

8. Let me close with an argument that’s entirely subjective (and therefore of questionable evidential value). Given our understanding of God’s character as presented in Scripture, does he appear as the kind of God who would eternally condemn infants on no other ground than that of Adam’s transgression? Again, this is a subjective (and perhaps sentimental) question. But it deserves an answer, nonetheless.

Do All Infants Go to Heaven?
 
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Seville90210

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but Jesus removed it (by His death He defeated death - two deaths - Adam's and Jesus').

:doh:
If what you're saying is true, that would mean billions of people would not had died the last 2000 years and hell no longer exist.

How many deaths are there? Two: spiritual death and a physical death. Christ conquered spiritual death at the cross but people are still dying physically.

If Christ had already defeated physical death, there would not be a need for any more resurrections. The rapture would no longer exist. Is this what you're telling us?

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” This happens at the end of Christ's reign on earth before He hands His reign back to God at the end of the millennium (1 Corinthians 15:20-24). The bible even tells you death is destroy when hell is destroy, both being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Christ will someday conquer the physical death after the second coming. Your theory also denies the second coming in case you haven't figured it out yet.

Amazingly you even posted it but have no idea understanding what you wrote.

mkgal1 wrote:

The declaration is equivalent to the statement in 1 Corinthians 15:26; “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

The declaration is equivalent to the statement in 1 Corinthians 15:26; The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


 
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Seville90210

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No matter how many deaths there are - the first will ALWAYS precede the second.

Your theory contradicts yourself. Since you believe the first death is spiritual and the second death is physical (and both wrong btw). You're telling us God rejected Jesus before He died on the cross.

If your idea of 1 ALWAYS precedes 2, than you're telling us this.

1) You're saying Jesus had a spiritual death and was separated from God on earth before His physical death on the cross.

2) You're also telling us God rejects babies too.

Deuteronomy 1:39
'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Matthew 18:3
and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:13-14
Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Mark 10:13-14
And they were bringing children to Him so that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.



1. In Romans 1:20 Paul describes recipients of general revelation as being “without excuse.” They can’t blame their unbelief on a lack of evidence. There is sufficient revelation of God’s existence in the natural order to establish the moral accountability of all who witness it. Might this imply that those who are not recipients of general revelation (i.e., infants) are therefore notaccountable to God or subject to wrath? In other words, wouldn’t those who die in infancy have an “excuse” in that they neither receive general revelation nor have the capacity to respond to it?

2. There are texts that assert or imply that infants don’t know good or evil and hence lack the capacity to make morally informed—and thus responsible—choices. According to Deuteronomy 1:39 they are said to “have no knowledge of good or evil.” This in itself, however, doesn’t prove infant salvation, for they may still be held liable for the sin of Adam.

3. We must take account of the story of David’s son in 2 Samuel 12:15–23(especially verse 23). The firstborn child of David and Bathsheba is struck by the Lord and dies. In the seven days before his death, David fasts and prays, hoping that “the Lord may be gracious to me, that the child may live.” Yet following the child’s death, David washes, eats, and worships. Asked why he’s responding this way, David says, “Since he has died, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me” (v. 23).

What does it mean when David says “I shall go to him”? If this is merely a reference to the grave or death in the sense that David, too, shall one day die and be buried, one wonders why he’d say something so patently obvious. Also, it appears that David draws some measure of comfort from knowing that he will “go to him.” It’s the reason why David resumes the normal routine of life. It appears to be the reason he ceases from the display of grief. It appears to be a truth from which he derives comfort and encouragement. How could any of this be true if David will simply die like his son? It would, therefore, appear David believed he would be reunited with his deceased infant. Does this imply that at least this one particular infant was saved? Perhaps. But if so, are we justified in constructing a doctrine in which we affirm the salvation of all who die in infancy?

4. There is the consistent testimony of Scripture that people are judged on the basis of sins committed voluntary and consciously in the body (see 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Cor. 6:9–10; Rev. 20:11–12). In other words, eternal judgment is always based on conscious rejection of divine revelation (whether in creation, conscience, or Christ) and willful disobedience. Are infants capable of either? There is no explicit account in Scripture of any other judgment based on any other grounds. Thus, those dying in infancy are saved because they do not (indeed cannot) satisfy the conditions for divine judgment.

5. Related to the above point, is what R. A. Webb states:

[If a deceased infant] were sent to hell on no other account than that of original sin, there would be a good reason to the divine mind for the judgment, but the child’s mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering. Under such circumstances, it would know suffering, but it would have no understanding of the reason for its suffering. It could not tell its neighbor—it could not tell itself—why it was so awfully smitten; and consequently the whole meaning and significance of its sufferings, being to it a conscious enigma, the very essence of penalty would be absent, and justice would be disappointed of its vindication. Such an infant could feel that it was in hell, but it could not explain, to its own conscience, why it was there.

6. We have what would appear to be clear biblical evidence that at least some infants are regenerate in the womb, such that if they died in their infancy they would be saved. This provides at least a theoretical basis for considering whether the same may be true of all who die in infancy. As Ronald Nash points out, “If this sort of thing happens even once, it can certainly happen in other cases.” Supporting texts include Jeremiah 1:5 and Luke 1:15.

7. Some have appealed to Matthew 19:13–15 (also Mark 10:13–16; Luke 18:15–17) where Jesus declares, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” Is he simply saying if one wishes to be saved one must be as trusting as a child (i.e., devoid of skepticism and arrogance)? In other words, is Jesus merely describing the kind of people who enter the kingdom? Or is he saying these very children were recipients of saving grace? If the latter were true, it would seem to imply Jesus knew that the children he was then receiving would all die in infancy. Is that credible?

8. Let me close with an argument that’s entirely subjective (and therefore of questionable evidential value). Given our understanding of God’s character as presented in Scripture, does he appear as the kind of God who would eternally condemn infants on no other ground than that of Adam’s transgression? Again, this is a subjective (and perhaps sentimental) question. But it deserves an answer, nonetheless.

Do All Infants Go to Heaven?
 
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Seville90210

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Why are you seeming to attempt to distort the reality of where the discussion was at this point? Everyone can go back and read - but you're excluding what was being addressed at the time, which was spiritual death (going through a bit of trouble in order to do so, even, Frankensteining the discussion).

Oh I get it, now you need to change the goal post from your original question "Who said anything about "literally dead"? to "but you're excluding what was being addressed at the time, which was spiritual death"

mkgal1 said:
Who said anything about "literally dead"?

Ok fine, we'll play with your new goal post and see who is in error again.

Link below, post #38 in the second page of this thread. Watch the video I posted. Spiritual Death is explained from the 4:10-4:55 mark.


Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

Did Adam not experienced death (spiritual) when he ate the fruit? Was he not banish from the Garden of Eden and separated from God the rest of his life?

How can you miss something that was already covered? I rest my case.
 
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Seville90210

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However, it is the wicked who are "taken" in Matthew chapter 24, just as the tares are removed first in Matthew chapter 13.

OK, lets look at Matthew chapter 13 than.

Matthew 13:41-42 King James Version (KJV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



In Matthew 13 in the King James, it says the angels will gather, and those gathered will be taken to hell.

But at the rapture, Jesus comes for the Church and takes His bride to heaven.

Either the King James is wrong or you are wrong.
 
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Seville90210

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He never sinned - that's how He was able to redeem us from our sin. He took on our physical nature and redeemed us from sin and gave us spiritual LIFE.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 ~ For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

More errors! Now every time you see the word death you think it's spiritual a thing. :doh:

You need the know the differences when reading the bible.

The entire book of 1 Corinthians 15 is about a physical death (Adam) and THE physical resurrection (Jesus).

Because of Adam comes Hebrews 9:27. Did Adam also not bring about a physical death upon the world?

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Is Jesus not also THE resurrection (physical)?

John 5:28 King James Version (KJV)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Also what happens at the rapture? Is it the spiritually dead raises first, or the dead-in-Christ raises first?
 
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BABerean2

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But at the rapture, Jesus comes for the Church and takes His bride to heaven.

There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5.
You are adding that to the text, or importing it from another passage.


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Seville90210

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There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, or 5.
You are adding that to the text, or importing it from another passage.


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How do you get a post trib rapture when the bible tells us the Church is already in heaven celebrating the Marriage Supper before Christ descends upon earth?

Revelation 19:6-14 NKJV
6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns!
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."
8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
9 Then he said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!' " And he said to me, "These are the true sayings of God."
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.


Either the bible is wrong or you're wrong.
 
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BABerean2

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How do you get a post trib rapture when the bible tells us the Church is already in heaven celebrating the Marriage Supper before Christ descends upon earth?

Have you known any Christians who are now dead?
Where are their souls now?

Where are all of the Apostles of Christ now?

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.


(GW) We believe that Jesus died and came back to life. We also believe that, through Jesus, God will bring back those who have died. They will come back with Jesus.


Rev_6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.



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mkgal1

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You're like the 2nd person that has said that to me lately. I just now got back on the internet just recently, after having no internet connection for the past several months. I think I already had a break then.
I meant a "break" in the sense that you'd get up and just stop reading these posts for a bit. As I said earlier - you seem to get lost in all the details (and I personally know what that's like - it happens to me as well).
Let me ask this hypothetical. Had Adam never partook of the forbidden fruit, nor Eve either, would they have both still physically died at some point, regardless?


I say no,
I agree.

Why does an already saved person need the right to the tree of life though, in the next age?
This is a rabbit hole, I think.
 
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