wearing shoes in church

AMM

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Why do the Eastern Orthodox wear shoes in church? We seem to partially maintain the idea that shoes are not meant for holy space, because we remove our shoes for some services (for example - I had to remove my shoes and socks when I became a catechumen and when I was chrismated). As far as I can tell, most of the Oriental Orthodox church bodies (and Muslims but I'm not sure how relevant that is) have parishioners remove their shoes during services, or at least when they commune. Is there a history behind this difference or is more of a cultural thing?
 
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prodromos

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In the early church, shoes were removed. It is something that Islam has copied from the Church. I don't know when the practice stopped. Perhaps the prevalence of closed shoes and the resulting foot odour had an impact. Who knows.
 
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CowboyAndy

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I was so pleasantly surprised when I first walked into an Orthodox Catholic church to find the women wearing head coverings. I had been fed up with feminism in Baptist and Bible Churches.
I also really liked the icons, despite coming from a household where icons were equated with idols. So dumb since icons were used in the Old Testament.

I wonder if barefoot people would have deterred me...
 
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AMM

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I was so pleasantly surprised when I first walked into an Orthodox Catholic church to find the women wearing head coverings. I had been fed up with feminism in Baptist and Bible Churches.
I also really liked the icons, despite coming from a household where icons were equated with idols. So dumb since icons were used in the Old Testament.

I wonder if barefoot people would have deterred me...
the first time I went to an orthodox service it was Coptic/Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox. I went for vespers, because I knew a girl who was coptic orthodox and I was just starting to look into Orthodoxy (before I knew the difference between Oriental and Eastern). I was quite intrigued when I entered the church and there was a pile of shoes in the back! But the priest was one of the kindest and most welcoming souls I've ever met :)
 
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ArmyMatt

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I never heard of removing shoes for a service. How did this start? Is there scripture that supports this or is it more of a tradition?

yes, God commanding Moses to remove his shoes at the Burning Bush because the ground on which he stood was holy.
 
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CowboyAndy

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the first time I went to an orthodox service it was Coptic/Oriental Orthodox, not Eastern Orthodox. I went for vespers, because I knew a girl who was coptic orthodox and I was just starting to look into Orthodoxy (before I knew the difference between Oriental and Eastern). I was quite intrigued when I entered the church and there was a pile of shoes in the back! But the priest was one of the kindest and most welcoming souls I've ever met :)
Were the people mostly immigrant? I need to check out a nearby Egyptian cathedral to see if it's mostly immigrant or if they have lots of American converts.
 
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AMM

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I never heard of removing shoes for a service. How did this start? Is there scripture that supports this or is it more of a tradition?
Here's a few from the old testament:


Exodus 3:5: Then He [God] said [to Moses], "Do not come near here; remove your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground."

2 Samuel 15:30: And David went up the ascent of the Mount of Olives, and wept as he went, and his head was covered and he walked barefoot.

Joshua 5:15: The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, "Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
 
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AMM

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Were the people mostly immigrant? I need to check out a nearby Egyptian cathedral to see if it's mostly immigrant or if they have lots of American converts.
Mostly dark-skinned people. I think a lot of the younger people were born here in the US, but my guess is they would be immigrant families. But I went back there just a few weeks ago for a divine liturgy and there were a lot more people, and more ethnic diversity. I think there were a couple other people we saw that appeared to be of European or Asian descent, but still mostly converts.

But whether or not it's largely immigrants has nothing to do with its Truth or lack thereof, so I wouldn't rule it out just because it's not many Americans. @dzheremi is a convert to OO and I believe he's of European descent (but I might be wrong)
 
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dzheremi

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The makeup of any given Coptic Orthodox congregation is likely to vary according to the demographics of the surrounding area, though the OO in general are less well-known in the west than the EO, so we do receive fewer converts overall. As AMM notes, however, that is changing, and as more Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian and Eritrean, and Malankara Orthodox (Indians; usually Malayali people from Kerala in south India, though not always) people are born in the west, the OO Church is becoming less attached to foreign lands, and more able to assert its own identity as a well-integrated part of western societies (one of the first things I was given by a friend when I told her I was finally moving to a place that had a Coptic Orthodox church was a bumper sticker that said "Proud Coptic American" and had the Coptic cross with the American flag next to it...). The Copts are probably known to be the most outwardly/missionary focused (the Armenians the least, though they too do receive converts), and there are places in the world where the entire church in that country is only native/non-Coptic people, with the exception of the priest and bishop (because the church is too new there to have raised one full generation within it). This is the case in Bolivia, for instance, where over 400 people attend services weekly at the cathedral in La Paz, with more in various locations elsewhere in the country.

So I really can't say what you'll find at your local cathedral. Probably a majority of Egyptians, maybe some Ethiopians and Sudanese, Eritreans, Syriacs, Indians, etc. and maybe some "non-OO" converts. The church at which I was baptized had a lot of different kinds of people: Egyptians, Eritreans, Iraqi-Coptic Assyrians (that was an interesting talk...), Hispanics, an entire white American family with no Egyptian connection whatsoever, etc. My home parish in the next state over was all Egyptians (only 6 families when I was there), though some of them were Coptic-Sudanese, and we regularly welcomed people from Jordan, Ethiopia, and apparently since I left the state a few years ago a woman from Saudi Arabia of all places converted and was baptized. We do not exactly have the reputation of, say, the Antiochian Orthodox or the OCA (obviously), but thankfully OO congregations tend to be becoming less and less homogeneous as time goes on.

What this has to do with taking off shoes, I don't know. :D Our reason for it is exactly as Fr. Matt has already given: Moses was ordered to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground, and because we are too whenever we enter the church or monastery, we do likewise.
 
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AMM

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The makeup of any given Coptic Orthodox congregation is likely to vary according to the demographics of the surrounding area, though the OO in general are less well-known in the west than the EO, so we do receive fewer converts overall. As AMM notes, however, that is changing, and as more Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian and Eritrean, and Malankara Orthodox (Indians; usually Malayali people from Kerala in south India, though not always) people are born in the west, the OO Church is becoming less attached to foreign lands, and more able to assert its own identity as a well-integrated part of western societies (one of the first things I was given by a friend when I told her I was finally moving to a place that had a Coptic Orthodox church was a bumper sticker that said "Proud Coptic American" and had the Coptic cross with the American flag next to it...). The Copts are probably known to be the most outwardly/missionary focused (the Armenians the least, though they too do receive converts), and there are places in the world where the entire church in that country is only native/non-Coptic people, with the exception of the priest and bishop (because the church is too new there to have raised one full generation within it). This is the case in Bolivia, for instance, where over 400 people attend services weekly at the cathedral in La Paz, with more in various locations elsewhere in the country.

So I really can't say what you'll find at your local cathedral. Probably a majority of Egyptians, maybe some Ethiopians and Sudanese, Eritreans, Syriacs, Indians, etc. and maybe some "non-OO" converts. The church at which I was baptized had a lot of different kinds of people: Egyptians, Eritreans, Iraqi-Coptic Assyrians (that was an interesting talk...), Hispanics, an entire white American family with no Egyptian connection whatsoever, etc. My home parish in the next state over was all Egyptians (only 6 families when I was there), though some of them were Coptic-Sudanese, and we regularly welcomed people from Jordan, Ethiopia, and apparently since I left the state a few years ago a woman from Saudi Arabia of all places converted and was baptized. We do not exactly have the reputation of, say, the Antiochian Orthodox or the OCA (obviously), but thankfully OO congregations tend to be becoming less and less homogeneous as time goes on.

What this has to do with taking off shoes, I don't know. :D Our reason for it is exactly as Fr. Matt has already given: Moses was ordered to remove his sandals because he was standing on holy ground, and because we are too whenever we enter the church or monastery, we do likewise.
Thanks for your response - you're always very well-spoken (well-written? well-typed?) and provide great information!
When I first saw it in the OO parish by me, I thought of Moses. Hence my question - why don't Greeks/Russians/Antiochians/etc. take off their shoes too? In your experience, does everyone at the OO church remove their shoes, or just the middle eastern folks? I imagine everyone does but I'm curious to know what you've observed
 
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I never heard of removing shoes for a service. How did this start? Is there scripture that supports this or is it more of a tradition?
Sorry. Just realized that the question was already answered.
 
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peregrinus2017

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In my parish, many people take off their shoes, some don't. It just seemed right to do so, so that's what I have done. I can see how some people might require good footwear to stand in reasonable comfort through the liturgy, and it's really no business of mine what others do. This winter though, I am going to bring slippers with me. The floor gets really cold.
 
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dzheremi

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Thanks for your response - you're always very well-spoken (well-written? well-typed?) and provide great information!
When I first saw it in the OO parish by me, I thought of Moses. Hence my question - why don't Greeks/Russians/Antiochians/etc. take off their shoes too? In your experience, does everyone at the OO church remove their shoes, or just the middle eastern folks? I imagine everyone does but I'm curious to know what you've observed

Everyone does, yes.
 
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Why do the Eastern Orthodox wear shoes in church? We seem to partially maintain the idea that shoes are not meant for holy space, because we remove our shoes for some services (for example - I had to remove my shoes and socks when I became a catechumen and when I was chrismated). As far as I can tell, most of the Oriental Orthodox church bodies (and Muslims but I'm not sure how relevant that is) have parishioners remove their shoes during services, or at least when they commune. Is there a history behind this difference or is more of a cultural thing?

Is it possible the removal of shoes was because of the need to anoint the feet?
 
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HowRU?

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In the Old Testament we had certain champions of the faith ordered to remove their shoes, because of being on holy ground. Apparently the feet were cleaner than the shoes, the shoes bearing the dirt of the world.
In Jesus time, he had the disciples remove their footwear so He could wash their feet. A curious and interesting progression. Kind of makes me scratch my head and want to ponder it...
I’ve definitely seen some women in my church get into worship and remove their shoes when they do it. I always assumed they were just getting comfortable. Maybe they were kind of acting scripturally.
 
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Is it possible the removal of shoes was because of the need to anoint the feet?
This was my thinking as well. It's a lot easier to do anointing with oil, baptism, anointing with chrism, and washing when there are not shoes in the way. I'm not entirely certain why the difference exists between current OO and current EO practice, but while there is ground that seems especially holy, once God enters His own creation and takes on flesh, it becomes harder to separate holy and unholy ground.
 
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