The Truth about Tongues - Once and for All

hehe...that is true....and the plate...dont forget the plate

25th March 2003 at 11:44 PM JesusServant said this in Post #36



It's really this simple...

Did Elizabeth speak in tongues when her baby (John the Baptist) lept in her womb when the Holy Spirit came over her when Mary told her the news about Gabriel's visit?  Then apparently tongues does not always follow the Holy Spirit. 

I'm sorry that you went through that anguish and people should be more careful about their necessity for signs and wonders (especially those that are Holy Spirit filled).  They caused you grief and stole your joy and I hope you have prayed for them and forgiven them as they know not what they did.  God bless you my friend!

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JesusServant, you missed the timing of Elizabeth and the day of Pentecost. The Holy Spirit wasn't given to the church untill 50 days after the Passover on which Jesus died for us. However, prophecy has been manifested since the day of creation.

As an interesting side note here, We, the church are a Royal Priesthood, right? Did you know that back in the old days, way back to the time the Ark of the Covenant was hidden by Jeremiah, as the high priest on the Day of Atonement went into the Holy of Holies to make the covering of sins of Israel, he spoke in tongues? He could speak in tongues when he was ministering in his capacity as High Priest, but only on that day when he was in the Holy of Holies.

Anyway, before the Day of Pentecost, people could be filled with the Holy Ghost, but now in the church age, we are not only filled by the Holy Ghost, we are immersed in the Holy Ghost. Hence the word, baptism of the Holy Ghost

Actually I'm not gonna get into talking about tongues again. If they believe you have to speak in tongues to have the Holy Spirit, they can if they believe that to be true.

I have no desire to have doubt swimming around in my head again.  I know I am saved.

Gordi, as long as you have confessed Jesus as Lord and believed in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead, you are saved, period!

Now, moving right along...

there's more of the Holy Spirit for you. Yes, you've already gotten much but God does not stop there, he doesnt want you to either,

so question is, do you want to go into even deeper intimacy with the Holy Spirit, into direct communication with God through a spiritual language He'll give to you?

If you're not interested, then you are short changing yourself (but there's no condemnation), if you are, just ask and step out in faith, and you will receive.

The choice is yours

Today at 01:01 PM Quaffer said this in Post #48



Gordi,

Have you conversed with these people? 

I read the part in the section "What Must I Do To Be Saved", under "The Following Steps Give Assurance Of Eternal Life", at point #3 "Receive The Holy Spirit".



They do seem to be saying you are assured of your salvation by speaking in tongues and that I believe is wrong.  Obviously, since Satan is a fallen angel, he can even speak in tongues of men and angels. 

Thanks Gordi,

Quaffer

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Hi, all! I thought I'd throw my two cents in. I've been all over their website and I can see why some people would think that this group of people sound like 'you have to speak in tongues to be saved'. However, I have looked at their literature and I have to say that I was impelled to reread Acts chapter 9, our readily available record of Paul's converson. I looked at what he said to Jesus and what Jesus said to him. I've looked into the record of Ananias and what he said to Paul regarding his healing and being filled with the Holy Spirit.

I really can't see, anywhere in the website, where the requirement 'you have to speak in tongues to be saved' is found, however I have found that they are really making the statement that you can be assured of your salvation by receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with tongues as evidence. I puzzled over the word 'assurance' for awhile, then I decided I would check the dictionary to see if my understanding of the meaning was correct. It wasn't. I thought it meant guaranteed. It doesn't, it really means in this use of the word, to make confident of..., i.e., to increase your confidence in your salvation.

So, I guess some things are easy to overlook and as a result misunderstand what it is they really are saying. This happens with many of us regarding the Word of God...That's why I take to heart God's words of encouragement to Joshua, God told Joshua to meditate on His word and then he would make his way prosperious. Joshua 1:8 has one word that most of us fail to do in our everyday lives. It is meditate on His word By doing this, I have learned to incorporate this into all areas of my life. It is amazing how much people miss when they read without taking the time to look at it and meditate on it. In most cases that's when you will start to pick up things you missed the first time around.

Yes, being baptized in the Holy Ghost would definitely assure you that you are saved. more confident. Can you see what I'm talking about?

By the way, I'm glad the link was posted, I found in the website an article I found very interesting. It was about the so called addition of Mark 16:9-20. I had a debate with this woman who was convinced that those verses were added onto Mark's Gospel at a much later date. I had never heard of that, but I argued that it original. I had told her that when you teach or preach His word, Jesus will confirm His Word with signs following. But she didn't want to hear any of it. Anyway, thanks for posting this thread and that link, I appreciate it!

Today at 01:31 PM Quaffer said this in Post #53




Hobart,

I read over it too and had the same initial reaction, however, they do seem to be saying you are not filled with the spirit unless you speak in tongues, and if you are not filled with the Spirit, then you are not saved. 

That seemed to be the way it came across to me anyway.

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I thought there was a difference between being filled with the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Ghost? There is, but you should find it...

Today at 03:49 PM Gordi said this in Post #55

Well thats funny cause the Holy Spirit has already worked in me and healed me and I have not spoken in tongues.

They don't believe you're a proper Christian unless you are spirit filled, and they said to me that if you are a spirit filled Christian you will speak in tongues as biblical evidence.

Trust me I attended some of their meetings and they expressed this viewpoint quite clearly.

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Gordi, if you are not sure that you are in the church He wants you to be in, maybe you should seek God for guidance on which church He wants you to be connected to?

Anyway, if you are not comfortable with tongues, don't worry about it. If you continue to walk with God, He will take you there when you are ready!

Today at 04:27 PM Miyu said this in Post #58

I used to attend a United Pentecostal Church...they teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved...they also teach that you must be baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus to be saved and deny the trinity.

Most other pentecostal denominations do not believe these things and consider the UPC a cult.

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EEWWW!!!

Nice one look, I'm glad you got something interesting from the site. 

There is an interesting feature article on Sargon who is mentioned in the Bible. 

26th March 2003 at 08:14 PM hobart schmedly said this in Post #41


Hi missy...
Can you name just a few of these many churches?


Again. please specify just a dozen of so of these many churches. I am curious. I have been a christian for 30+ years, have been to more churches that I can remember... and I have never found one of these "many" churches of which you speak.


Is this person a member of one of these many chruches. Is this a denomination... or some independent group.




Actually Paul got in a lot of trouble because of pride and even had a demon following him around harrassing him because of it. But that is another issue.
Anyway, if you can... please get together with Max and work up short list out of the many churches that teach these things. A dozen should do. Should be easy to put together since there are so many.

Thanks!

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Yup, Apostolic, Pentcostal, Bible-only churches, some non-denominational churches, and the AOG I have attended.. of course these churches are rather charismatic and I doubt if every single one of these churches hold this idea but those are the ones that I have attend where it has been specifically said BY THE MINISTER OF THE CHURCH you MUST get the gift of tongues during baptism or you don't have the HS and are not saved. As a matter of fact I watch one on television on Sunday sometimes that believes in this his website is www.truthofGod.com

You having been a Christian for 30 yrs is rather irrelevant to what I personally have seen..no offense. Perhaps you in your 30 yrs haven't attended as many churches that I have..

Reguarding Paul.. I will give you this scripture about pride right from the horses mouth:

2 Cor 12: 5-10 

 5 I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. 6 Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. 7 To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Enjoy!

And no, I will not be getting with Br. Max on anything. I said I agreed with him because I have seen it myself.. my word is enough you can take it or leave it..

Missy




 

I would like to know who considers UPC a cult. I mean the UPC doctrine is completely biblical. Just curious.

Today at 03:04 AM SeekerofJesus said this in Post #71

I would like to know who considers UPC a cult. I mean the UPC doctrine is completely biblical. Just curious.

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A cult is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as this :a  religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

So technically using that definition one could conclude that yes they are a cult but it depends on what someone considers "unconventional" .. Here is their official website : www.upci.org.

On that site it says this of their doctrine:

doctrinal views of the UPCI reflect most of the beliefs of the Holiness-Pentecostal movement, with the exception of the "second work of grace," the historic doctrine of the Trinity, and the traditional Trinitarian formula in water baptism. It embraces the Pentecostal view that speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Spirit.

The UPCI holds a fundamental view of the Bible: "The Bible is the only God-given authority which man possesses; therefore all doctrine, faith, hope, and all instructions for the church must be based upon and harmonize with the Bible" (Manual of the United Pentecostal Church, 19). The Bible is the Word of God, and therefore inerrant and infallible. The UPCI rejects all extrabiblical revelations and writings, and views church creeds and articles of faith only as the thinking of men.

The UPCI holds that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works. Faith in Jesus is the means by which a person is justified. At the same time, a sinner must believe the gospel; he is commanded to repent of his sinful life, to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ, and to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; 4:12; 8:12-17; 10:43-48; 19:1-6). Thus the various aspects of faith and obedience work together in God's grace to reconcile us to God.

Personally, I don't think I would label them as a cult..but one can go to their actual website, read what the UPC believe and decide for themselves.

Missy


 

27th March 2003 at 04:27 PM Miyu said this in Post #58

I used to attend a United Pentecostal Church...they teach that you must speak in tongues to be saved...they also teach that you must be baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus to be saved and deny the trinity.

Most other pentecostal denominations do not believe these things and consider the UPC a cult.

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UPC does have a doctrine called "Jesus Only"... in fact that is what we used to call them when I was a kid... "he is a Jesus only believer..."

However I do not think they are a cult. They are mainly considered a cult by those who consider everyone a cult.

27th March 2003 at 05:14 PM look said this in Post #62 Did you know that back in the old days, way back to the time the Ark of the Covenant was hidden by Jeremiah, as the high priest on the Day of Atonement went into the Holy of Holies to make the covering of sins of Israel, he spoke in tongues? He could speak in tongues when he was ministering in his capacity as High Priest, but only on that day when he was in the Holy of Holies.

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Where is this at in Scripture? I'm awfully curious... lol have a great day!

Speaking in tongues:

Thank you for the verses of Corinthians 14.

What does a visitor gain from speaking in tongues if no interpreter present?

What does your congregation gain from speaking in tongues if not done from the heart and to God for the purpose of prophesy?

What do we gain from speaking in tongues>?

Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. To my understanding there are three types. Never really been told what the three types were

So here is my view point on scripture. If one is declaring the message of a foreign country, would not God want you to speak the language Read Acts 1 and 2. This is what I believe the purpose of tongues were for.

May the Holy Spirit guide you with your gifts and show you your talents to use to glorify His Kingdom, to bear fruit; rather than arrogant hearts..

Edouard
May the Lord bless you and keep you Amen.
Charis et Erienne be with you.

Um....two of the three are glossolalia and xenolalia.....I'm not sure what the third is.

Today at 10:57 PM Edouard said this in Post #75

Speaking in tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit. To my understanding there are three types. Never really been told what the three types were

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Yesterday at 04:23 PM sbbqb7n16 said this in Post #74




Where is this at in Scripture? I'm awfully curious... lol have a great day!

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It is not in the Bible, rather, it is in both Jewish history and the Jewish oral tradition.

Also it is said that in Exodus 32:32, there is a long slash in the middle of Moses' prayer as he interceded for the Jewish nation. The reason the slash was put there was because the Jewish scribes could not interpret what Moses said between the begining of the slash and the end of it. It is said that there were several pages of unintelligible Hebrew. So from that moment on, the translators have used the slash, which denotes untranslatable script. It would appear that this episode was the first instance of speaking in tongues. Just think, there had to be tongues in the Old Testament days, simply because of two scriptures from Solomon.

I'll paste the scripture here for you to ponder on;

Ecclesiastes 1: 9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Ecclesiastes 3: 15. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Ta-ta, for now!