Liberals outraged as Trump endorses Bible literacy classes in public schools

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
There is no reconciling what you believe and what I believe. At all. I believe what you are articulating is a total perversion of the truth and Gods will for the earth. I'm sure you think you are full of light and the gospel. One of us will be judged for preaching and teaching falsehoods.
http://wordservice.org/Bible%20Basics/bb9000.htm
Brother ...those who judge themselves will not be judged . We are told to preach the word in season and out of season , correct, rebuke , exhort with all long suffering and doctrine for the times are coming when men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears .
God gives grace to the humble but is in opposition to the proud . This is a proud country and many who say they know the Lord are proud ...lifted up ...they have their hope in man . This is contrary to the gospel . What falsehood have I spoken ?
Regarding whether I think I am full of light and the gospel , I do not believe I am speaking the truth . I know we have been indoctrinated in many ways . And the truth has a cost . So does love for they are the same .
As for what I believe ...I am told not to lean to my own understanding so what I believe is according to truth . Many people spend more time watching television than reading the bible and think their correct theology will save them . We are told to speak every man truth to his neighbor for we are members one of another . Would love demand any thing else ?
How is what you believe different than what I believe ?
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Brother ...those who judge themselves will not be judged . We are told to preach the word in season and out of season , correct, rebuke , exhort with all long suffering and doctrine for the times are coming when men will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers having itching ears .
God gives grace to the humble but is in opposition to the proud . This is a proud country and many who say they know the Lord are proud ...lifted up ...they have their hope in man . This is contrary to the gospel . What falsehood have I spoken ?
Regarding whether I think I am full of light and the gospel , I do not believe I am speaking the truth . I know we have been indoctrinated in many ways . And the truth has a cost . So does love for they are the same .
As for what I believe ...I am told not to lean to my own understanding so what I believe is according to truth . Many people spend more time watching television than reading the bible and think their correct theology will save them . We are told to speak every man truth to his neighbor for we are members one of another . Would love demand any thing else ?
How is what you believe different than what I believe ?
110% opposition between what you believe and what I believe. You believe the world is going to hell in a hand basket and we are to save ourselves from it and by faith through grace get to heaven. I believe all of Bible Prophecy, with a correct understanding of the times and seasons agrees 100% with John 3:17.

That God did not send the Son into the the world to condemn the world. (Pass sentence upon it and carry out that sentence.) but that through him, (the Son.) The world might be saved. Since the world cannot go to heaven. It is obviously speaking of saved in the generic sense. Preserved, healed which implies transformation. since wickedness in and of itself brings destruction. Just look at how three chapters of Isaiah's prophecy regarding the New Jerusalem say this exact same thing in this link. It will blow your mind.
The Bride of Christ
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,254
20,262
US
✟1,450,958.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Non Christians have resented Christians since, well, since Christ Himself was here. 2,000 years hasn't changed anything in that regard.

But they were actually doing things the way Christ told them.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,729
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟650,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
But they were actually doing things the way Christ told them.

And the ones who aren't are resented as well, or so I'm told.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,729
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟650,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You don't get credit for righteousness if you do it wrong.

But let none of you suffer as a ... meddler.

My original point is that Christians have been resented ever since Christ Himself was here. It's to be expected. I pointed this out as a response to post #2, which was in response to the OP, which I don't believe was pointing out something that was wrong.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,254
20,262
US
✟1,450,958.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My original point is that Christians have been resented ever since Christ Himself was here. It's to be expected. I pointed this out as a response to post #2, which was in response to the OP, which I don't believe was pointing out something that was wrong.

The early Christians were resented because they were behaving like Christ.

Christians today are being resented because they have behaved like jerks.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,729
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟650,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The early Christians were resented because they were behaving like Christ.

Christians today are being resented because they have behaved like jerks.

But even in the Apostle Paul's day, there were people who were preaching Christ in order to cause grief to Paul, and Paul had no problem with that because Christ was being preached, even if for the wrong reason.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,254
20,262
US
✟1,450,958.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But even in the Apostle Paul's day, there were people who were preaching Christ in order to cause grief to Paul, and Paul had no problem with that because Christ was being preached, even if for the wrong reason.

You are trying to defend being a jerk.
 
Upvote 0

Aldebaran

NCC-1701-A
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Oct 17, 2009
38,729
12,120
Wisconsin, United States of America
✟650,577.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
You are trying to defend being a jerk.

LOL!
As I said before, my original point is that Christians have been resented ever since Christ Himself was here. It's to be expected. I pointed this out as a response to post #2, which was in response to the OP, which I don't believe was pointing out something that was wrong.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
110% opposition between what you believe and what I believe. You believe the world is going to hell in a hand basket and we are to save ourselves from it and by faith through grace get to heaven. I believe all of Bible Prophecy, with a correct understanding of the times and seasons agrees 100% with John 3:17.

That God did not send the Son into the the world to condemn the world. (Pass sentence upon it and carry out that sentence.) but that through him, (the Son.) The world might be saved. Since the world cannot go to heaven. It is obviously speaking of saved in the generic sense. Preserved, healed which implies transformation. since wickedness in and of itself brings destruction. Just look at how three chapters of Isaiah's prophecy regarding the New Jerusalem say this exact same thing in this link. It will blow your mind.
The Bride of Christ
Brother ...We do believe the same thing but in order for the world to be saved , repentance to life is required . One can not refuse life and live any more than one can breathe carbon monoxide and live. Do we have more anointing than those who pleaded to those who had their hope in their religion to save yourself from the wrath that is to come ? Jesus said that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil . Shall we call evil good and good evil ? Humanism whether cloaked in christian jargon is nothing different than atheistic humanism ...just more difficult to detect . I absolutely believe that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that through him the world might be saved ....through Him . Through Him . Not through any human contrivances .
There is a well established falsehood regarding America -Israel ( the good guys ) verses Russia , China -Islam ) The bad guys . Except the scriptures declare that there is none good , no not one . Also the Kingdom of God does not recognize nationalist borders for they are temporary and most were wrought through bloodshed , stealing , pride , covetousness , treaty breaking , ...nothing christ-like rather than the shed blood which only brings us into the Kingdom . ( And they overcame by the blood of the Lamb , the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death . )
Brother , when an enemy of God is forgiven , they personally beat their swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks .
I do not believe we are saved to go to heaven . We are saved in order to work in the vineyard of our own heart and to rescue others who perish ...i.e the parable of the market place so that others may know the redemption which is in Christ . ( I think heaven is a continuation of the let eternal life that exist now in us through Christ but as our apostle Paul said ...I do not count myself to have obtained . It appears that God's work in us is progressive ( at least for me . ) There are things which I did not understand many years ago ...And now I understand them differently. Again , how do we differ ? I have the same hope as Hitler apart from Jesus Christ . How do we differ ...Let your iron sharpen my iron .
When Jesus said , if any man follow me , let him first count the cost . What did he mean ?
You are aware that Paul's letters and the gospels were written to people who were suffering or about to suffer for their faith . They were not establishing a theological position but rather being prepared for the reality of the gospel in the face of the enemy of the truth ( who can tolerate everything but Truth ) . Why does Jesus tell believers to repent in Revelation ? Love . So we can have a broken and tender heart as will all of the little children which make up the Kingdom . Broken ..innocent ...pure ..lowly , meek . How do we differ ?
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Brother ...We do believe the same thing but in order for the world to be saved , repentance to life is required . One can not refuse life and live any more than one can breathe carbon monoxide and live. Do we have more anointing than those who pleaded to those who had their hope in their religion to save yourself from the wrath that is to come ? Jesus said that men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil . Shall we call evil good and good evil ? Humanism whether cloaked in christian jargon is nothing different than atheistic humanism ...just more difficult to detect . I absolutely believe that God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that through him the world might be saved ....through Him . Through Him . Not through any human contrivances .
There is a well established falsehood regarding America -Israel ( the good guys ) verses Russia , China -Islam ) The bad guys . Except the scriptures declare that there is none good , no not one . Also the Kingdom of God does not recognize nationalist borders for they are temporary and most were wrought through bloodshed , stealing , pride , covetousness , treaty breaking , ...nothing christ-like rather than the shed blood which only brings us into the Kingdom . ( And they overcame by the blood of the Lamb , the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death . )
Brother , when an enemy of God is forgiven , they personally beat their swords into plowshares and the spears into pruning hooks .
I do not believe we are saved to go to heaven . We are saved in order to work in the vineyard of our own heart and to rescue others who perish ...i.e the parable of the market place so that others may know the redemption which is in Christ . ( I think heaven is a continuation of the let eternal life that exist now in us through Christ but as our apostle Paul said ...I do not count myself to have obtained . It appears that God's work in us is progressive ( at least for me . ) There are things which I did not understand many years ago ...And now I understand them differently. Again , how do we differ ? I have the same hope as Hitler apart from Jesus Christ . How do we differ ...Let your iron sharpen my iron .
When Jesus said , if any man follow me , let him first count the cost . What did he mean ?
You are aware that Paul's letters and the gospels were written to people who were suffering or about to suffer for their faith . They were not establishing a theological position but rather being prepared for the reality of the gospel in the face of the enemy of the truth ( who can tolerate everything but Truth ) . Why does Jesus tell believers to repent in Revelation ? Love . So we can have a broken and tender heart as will all of the little children which make up the Kingdom . Broken ..innocent ...pure ..lowly , meek . How do we differ ?
No, never in a million years would I agree with anything you say or think along these lines. Your entirely personalizing the Kingdom of God and the extent of its influnce in the world. As if it cannot and has not influenced sinners, cultures and nations to turn away from some of their more odious practices. You think God never intended to do that. Nor did he ever tell us he would do that through the influence of the saints, the Bible, his providence and miraculous intervention. Exactly like it says here. Not will come to pass but coming to pass before our eyes.

Isaiah 61: 1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
Jesus spoke this of himself bringing the good news to whoever would receive it. But was it just the good news about going to heaven? The later part of the verse answers that.
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
In Jesus day half the worlds population were the property of others. Here he announces a day when legal slavery would end.
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Prisons, dungeons, labor and death camps for political prisoners of the wicked who ruled in perpetuity was the way of life on earth. So his good news message reached out way beyond (time wise) the hope of heaven for believers.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the year of the Lords favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
This prophecy of the Messiahs invisible kingdom starts in ancient Israel with the time of his favor to those who morn over the wickedness all around them and the day of his vengeance upon the wicked in the nation. That even though the nation will be destroyed because of wickedness. He will bring those who mourn salvation, the Holy Spirit, the joy of the Lord, righteousness' in their hearts and will sow them in the earth for his glory.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolation's, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolation's of many generations. ( Prophesying how believers, their influence, will build civilizations. As opposed to those who destroy them.) 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. (Prophesying how people of all nations, as opposed to just Israelite's will be shepherds, pastors, evangelists, prophets in the Lord's vineyard in the earth.) 6 Furthermore, you shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: (The ministry of the believer.) you shall eat the riches of the nations, (that ministry, eventually accepted and supported in the nations.) and in their glory shall you boast yourselves. (Meaning the glory, or the state of existence of civilizations based in Biblical principle as a result of the Messiahs invisible Kingdom is what the believers will boast about.)
Isaiah 61:7 For your shame you shall have double; and for confusion and reproach, they shall rejoice in their portion: Therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be to them. What this is prophesying is that for the persecution, oppression and murder the saints face in lands where ever the Gospel is first preached. Due to the influence of the Messiah's invisible kingdom eventually creating the free world. The saints, at that time will be blessed, prosperous, and flourishing; in a way the world had never known. 8 For I the LORD love justice, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. This is speaking of the hatred of God towards the pseudo religious substitution of rites and rituals as opposed to true conversion from the heart. That the true work of the messiah was to bring justice in the earth as the fruit of real conversion. That this is Gods covenant with the believer. That he would bring about this age of promise where justice and righteousness would be a prevalent force in the earth.

Isaiah 61:9 And their descendants shall be known among the nations, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the posterity which the LORD has blessed. Speaking of those who are the posterity of the prophets and apostles. Those influenced by their words which started happening in earnest about 500 years ago when the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth brings forth her bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. Teaching that the Lord will cause this transformation to act as almost a force of nature in the world. That we should participate and rejoice in it as a product of our salvation and as the bride of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 14, 2015
6,132
3,089
✟405,713.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
January 29, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – President Donald Trump raised a lot of eyebrows Monday by endorsing biblical literacy education in public schools, earning praise from socially-conservative supporters and scorn from secular critics.

Legislation is currently pending in at least six states that would encourage public schools to offer elective courses on the Bible’s historical and literary significance. Backed by groups such as the Congressional Prayer Caucus Foundation, National Legal Foundation, and WallBuilders, the bills are meant to recognize that “the Bible is an integral part of our society and deserves a place in the classroom,” according to North Dakota GOP state Rep. Aaron McWilliams.

The president spoke out in favor of the push Monday, tweeting it was “great” to give students “the option of studying the Bible.”

Critics responded by attacking him from two angles: that Trump is an unserious champion of biblical principles, and that the policies run afoul of church-state separation.

On the first, critics invoked various examples such as Trump’s history of marital infidelity and comments suggesting he never asked God for forgiveness. Trump's secular, liberal, and salacious past alarmed many conservatives as well when he won the Republican presidential nomination, but since then most have been won over by his record of supporting life and defending religious liberty.

More at link: Liberals outraged as Trump endorses Bible literacy classes in public schools
Liberals outraged as Trump....? Why is this even news anymore? If Trump cured cancer, liberals would be outraged.
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
No, never in a million years would I agree with anything you say or think along these lines. Your entirely personalizing the Kingdom of God and the extent of its influnce in the world. As if it cannot and has not influenced sinners, cultures and nations to turn away from some of their more odious practices. You think God never intended to do that. Nor did he ever tell us he would do that through the influence of the saints, the Bible, his providence and miraculous intervention. Exactly like it says here. Not will come to pass but coming to pass before our eyes.

Isaiah 61: 1The Spirit of the Lord GOD is on me; because the LORD has anointed me to preach good tidings to the meek; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
Jesus spoke this of himself bringing the good news to whoever would receive it. But was it just the good news about going to heaven? The later part of the verse answers that.
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
In Jesus day half the worlds population were the property of others. Here he announces a day when legal slavery would end.
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
Prisons, dungeons, labor and death camps for political prisoners of the wicked who ruled in perpetuity was the way of life on earth. So his good news message reached out way beyond (time wise) the hope of heaven for believers.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the year of the Lords favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 3 To appoint to them that mourn in Zion, to give to them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
This prophecy of the Messiahs invisible kingdom starts in ancient Israel with the time of his favor to those who morn over the wickedness all around them and the day of his vengeance upon the wicked in the nation. That even though the nation will be destroyed because of wickedness. He will bring those who mourn salvation, the Holy Spirit, the joy of the Lord, righteousness' in their hearts and will sow them in the earth for his glory.
Isaiah 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolation's, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolation's of many generations. ( Prophesying how believers, their influence, will build civilizations. As opposed to those who destroy them.) 5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. (Prophesying how people of all nations, as opposed to just Israelite's will be shepherds, pastors, evangelists, prophets in the Lord's vineyard in the earth.) 6 Furthermore, you shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: (The ministry of the believer.) you shall eat the riches of the nations, (that ministry, eventually accepted and supported in the nations.) and in their glory shall you boast yourselves. (Meaning the glory, or the state of existence of civilizations based in Biblical principle as a result of the Messiahs invisible Kingdom is what the believers will boast about.)
Isaiah 61:7 For your shame you shall have double; and for confusion and reproach, they shall rejoice in their portion: Therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be to them. What this is prophesying is that for the persecution, oppression and murder the saints face in lands where ever the Gospel is first preached. Due to the influence of the Messiah's invisible kingdom eventually creating the free world. The saints, at that time will be blessed, prosperous, and flourishing; in a way the world had never known. 8 For I the LORD love justice, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. This is speaking of the hatred of God towards the pseudo religious substitution of rites and rituals as opposed to true conversion from the heart. That the true work of the messiah was to bring justice in the earth as the fruit of real conversion. That this is Gods covenant with the believer. That he would bring about this age of promise where justice and righteousness would be a prevalent force in the earth.

Isaiah 61:9 And their descendants shall be known among the nations, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the posterity which the LORD has blessed. Speaking of those who are the posterity of the prophets and apostles. Those influenced by their words which started happening in earnest about 500 years ago when the Bible began to get into the hands of the general public. 10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. 11 For as the earth brings forth her bud, and as the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations. Teaching that the Lord will cause this transformation to act as almost a force of nature in the world. That we should participate and rejoice in it as a product of our salvation and as the bride of Christ.

Brother ...OK .since you will not agree with me , then I will agree with you for there is nothing that these scriptures have brought forth that I do not believe to be true . I do not believe I have contradicted any of them . I believe that a conversion of the heart must happen . So , you will not believe that in a million years ? I believe it is the work of God . The Lord found me when I was not looking for Him . He changed me . I heard the word of truth .
In Ezekiel 9:4 , this is the condition of men who love the same things as God . This is also alluded to in Revelation . As you are aware , like many New Testament pronouncements , it was found also in the old testament .
As I also pointed out in my earlier post ...salvation is about repentance ..not a trip to heaven . So again we agree . Now I do believe a great falling away will happen .( according to the scripture ) It is described in 2nd timothy chapter 3 ...having a form of godliness but denying the power . The religious rituals you described . Again we agree in less than a week . And to be clear ...you nor I nor anyone does not have anything that was not given . Even delusion . ( For this cause God shall send a strong delusion that they might believe a lie for the receive not a love for the truth . )
Where we may not agree is the fact that in Daniel where it says that through peace ( prosperity) , many will be destroyed . I look to the early church and the writings we have wherein Paul said that they took joyfully the spoiling of all their goods .
Do you believe that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived ? Would you hold to the fact that men will not endure sound doctrine and heap to themselves teachers having itching ears ? I believe these things to be true ...but I did not write them . The apostle Paul did. Jesus quoted the end of Daniel when discussing a time of great deceit and tribulation . I believe Him .
Please inform me where we disagree for you sound greatly offended .
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Brother ...OK .since you will not agree with me , then I will agree with you for there is nothing that these scriptures have brought forth that I do not believe to be true . I do not believe I have contradicted any of them . I believe that a conversion of the heart must happen . So , you will not believe that in a million years ? I believe it is the work of God . The Lord found me when I was not looking for Him . He changed me . I heard the word of truth .
In Ezekiel 9:4 , this is the condition of men who love the same things as God . This is also alluded to in Revelation . As you are aware , like many New Testament pronouncements , it was found also in the old testament .
As I also pointed out in my earlier post ...salvation is about repentance ..not a trip to heaven . So again we agree . Now I do believe a great falling away will happen .( according to the scripture ) It is described in 2nd timothy chapter 3 ...having a form of godliness but denying the power . The religious rituals you described . Again we agree in less than a week . And to be clear ...you nor I nor anyone does not have anything that was not given . Even delusion . ( For this cause God shall send a strong delusion that they might believe a lie for the receive not a love for the truth . )
Where we may not agree is the fact that in Daniel where it says that through peace ( prosperity) , many will be destroyed . I look to the early church and the writings we have wherein Paul said that they took joyfully the spoiling of all their goods .
Do you believe that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse , deceiving and being deceived ? Would you hold to the fact that men will not endure sound doctrine and heap to themselves teachers having itching ears ? I believe these things to be true ...but I did not write them . The apostle Paul did. Jesus quoted the end of Daniel when discussing a time of great deceit and tribulation . I believe Him .
Please inform me where we disagree for you sound greatly offended .
The way your reading Bible prophecy simply does not fit together with all the Bibles prophecy. Which is THE indication that you don't have it right. It all has to fit seamlessly together. The reason you cannot fit it together is because you don't have the times and seasons of any of the Bibles prophecy right. Below is the first of three chapters of prophecy in Isaiah regarding this present age. Prophecy that you cannot fit into what your think the future holds.

Rev. 21:9 And there came to me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...
In Galatians 4 the Apostle declares: 21 Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a female slave, the other by a free woman. 23 But he who was of the female slave was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engenders to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bore not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband. In this teaching the Apostle is clearly saying that the rituals and rites of the Mosaic law called the first covenant are symbolized by Hagar and the birth of Ishmael. He calls the mother of the children of the first covenant the physical city of Jerusalem. In the context of the entire chapter he is comparing the purely physical descendant's of Abraham to the people of faith, be they Jew or Gentile. This article, Symbolism in Genesis Regarding the First and Second Covenant goes into this very deeply. The point of this is that he is quoting from one of the old Testament prophecies about the New Jerusalem to teach this; Isaiah 54. The article will go through it verse by verse to show the amazing accuracy of it as a prophecy.

(AKJV) Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, you that did not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, you that did not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, said the LORD.
This is the verse Paul quotes. The way he is interpreting it is that the Mosaic Law and the physical city of Jerusalem were the married wife that bore many children. The people of faith though, few and for most of the history of ancient Israel persecuted and murdered by the faithless; these are the children of the desolate woman. However with the coming of the messiah the children of the desolate woman, in this case the children of the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem, would bear more children than the earthly city would. The rest of the prophecy in Isaiah 54 will say more of this.
2 Enlarge the place of your tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations: spare not, lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes; 3 For you shall break forth on the right hand and on the left; and your descendants shall inherit the Nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. A truly amazing prophecy exhorting the faithful with the promise that lay ahead. That the people of faith soon to be of all nations will grow and expand. So much so that it will be said the descendant of Abraham, the Messiah, through them will inherit the nations. That the fruit of this will be prosperous civilizations. (The desolate cities will be inhabited.)
4 Fear not; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be you confounded; for you shall not be put to shame: for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more. 5 For your Maker is your husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD has called you as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when you were refused, said your God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, said the LORD your Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah to me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with you, nor rebuke you. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, said the LORD that has mercy on you. Here are more references to the bride of Christ. The shame and the reproach of her youth and being forsaken is a reference to the tribulations the believers in ancient Israel faced at the hands of the Gentiles because of the wickedness of the majority of its citizens and its leaders. Due to this they were not recipients of any of the earthly promises of God made to Abraham and in many other places in the scripture. It seemed as if they were forsaken by God and left to the whims of the wicked. It mattered not how they lived their lives before the Lord. They reaped whatever the despots who ran the world sowed. This certainly did not change in New Testament times and for many a century beyond that. Yet in the next verses we have a promise of a day when that would not be so.
11 O you afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay your stones with fair colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make your windows of agates, and your gates of carbuncles, and all your borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression; for you shall not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near you. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whoever shall gather together against you shall fall for your sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, said the LORD. The first few verses unmistakably use the same type of illustrations as the New Jerusalem in Revelation. Verse 14 clearly states that the way these children of the heavenly city will be established in the earth is because of righteousness. That the terror and the oppression their ancestors lived under and those peoples in the nations who do not know righteousness are subjugated to will not be their story, their testimony. Verse 15 points out that these promises will come to pass in a world where evil exists because the wicked seek to conquer the people of faith. It simply shows that unlike the ancient world where the wicked reigned in perpetuity. In this one with the Lords help, the righteous will come out on top.

It must be pointed out that these specific promises of freedom from oppression. terror and fear itself. Promises that say it will not come near to you have been fulfilled in the lives of many generations of believers in North America and some nations in Northern Europe. These promises were directly fulfilled because very significant minorities and sometimes even small majorities of believers of the population of a nation; plus significant minorities of non believers in those nations adopted the righteousness of Biblical principle to guide their private and national affairs. All this came about when the Bible started to get into the hands of common men in their own languages starting right after the Roman empire fell in 1453 AD. The history of this also shows the path forward. Preaching the Gospel with power, and the putting of the Scripture in the hands of whoever wants them are the foundation. Understanding that those who are pioneers in this effort where the Gospel is relatively new typically face cruel persecutions. This history shows that national and international revivals are a necessity. It also shows that when the time is right based on the righteousness of the people through that Gospel that wars may be necessary. Certainly political ones but at times shooting wars. It is clear by looking at this history that limited and good government that administers justice by physical force is ordained by God and is to be established and maintained by righteous peoples; that this must be fought for and continuously watched over through faith in the promises of Gods Word. It also shows that the wicked will directly attack the righteousness of God, Gods saints and the scripture in an effort to make the people immoral and therefore easily to manipulate. This in their quest to rule over the nations.

Next up Isaiah 60
The Bride of Christ
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Needy Follower
Here is the 2nd of three chapters in Isaiah about the New Jerusalem that just cannot be fit into your worldview that you developed from your understanding of Bible prophecy.

Isaiah 60 (AKJV) 1 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you. Two scriptures explain these verses perfectly. Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like to a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;.....23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. None of these illustrations are by accident, as the reader will hopefully see as it unfolds.
3 And the Nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to you: your sons shall come from far, and your daughters shall be nursed at your side. 5 Then you shall see, and flow together, and your heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted to you, the wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you. There are a couple of items in these verses. First are the references to the children of this heavenly city, the bride of Christ. Second, that these children are from all nations. That is what the illustration of the "sea" being converted to it is. the sea is an illustration of the nations. Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. While Isaiah says the sea, the nations, will be converted to the New Jerusalem. Revelation says their will be no more sea. The meaning is very simple. That peoples and nations many a time opposed to one another based on their heritage will become one in Christ, hence no more sea. In this city all are brothers and sisters as the NT says over and over. This can also be seen in the ideal of America, because of its founding on Biblical principle. Where people of all nations become one people. That was its design anyway. You can see the spirit of anti-Christ at work in it trying to thwart that from happening. For political advantage always purposely causing division among its people based on race and class. Another amazing thing is the prophecy of the enormity of this process. That the believers hearts will flow together. There is nothing like seeing Christians of all denominations working together because so many are being saved. Differences get put aside because the work is so great and so many are coming to Christ that there isn't time to fight among themselves. Their hearts truly fear and are enlarged by what they see happening. Look at some numbers. Did you know that for the last decade or two over 100,000 people a day are coming to Christ? If the numbers were to keep extrapolating the way they have been in a few decades all the people in the world would have accepted Jesus in 50 years. Now obviously it is not going to play out that way and besides the work is so much greater than just introducing people to Jesus. That doesn't negate the radical phenomena of hundreds of millions of people coming to Christ though. Lets look at this in another way though. Lets say there are now 600 million real believers world wide. (There are over two billion that call themselves Christians now.) If each of the 600 million truly won two people to Christ in a ten year period. Then those 600 million truly won two more and so on. In a mere generation or so the majority of people on the earth would be true believers. children of the heavenly city. Now think of the fruit that would bear in the nations if they embraced all their duties to raise their children and turn their nations toward Biblical principle. That may be overly optimistic but it is definitely scripture based vision for the future. Then there is the wealth of the nations mentioned at the end of the verse. The middle class of these nations like the USA that were founded on Biblical principle have unimaginable wealth compared to the peoples of the nations who don't yet have the Gospel. In fact what the 1% super wealthy have is a pittance in comparison. Another reason why those animated by the spirit of anti Christ seek to impose laws and policies to strip the middle class of all that wealth. They want to get their hands on it.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover you, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you: they shall come up with acceptance on my altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the LORD your God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he has glorified you. Animals as well as trees are used often used as illustrations of the different nations and peoples in the illustrative language of Bible prophecy. That is why you'll see scriptures like this one. Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatted calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. They make for nice Sunday school pictures of heaven but that is just not what they as prophecies are predicting. Rather they predict what we have been seeing to varying degree's. Representative republics who's morality is based in scripture are not fighting wars with one another. People's who have accepted Christ treating other races and nationalities who have as kin.
10 And the sons of strangers shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you: for in my wrath I smote you, but in my favor have I had mercy on you. We have the same scenario as in Isaiah 54 here. The sufferings of the people of faith at the hands of the wicked for millennia verses the time of favor, prophesied to come. When the righteousness of the saints bears fruit in the nations bringing circumstances where the promises of God made to the saints in time past can come to fruition. Plus very importantly. The descendants of the nations are prophesied to build the walls of this "city." verses ancient Israel or those who went out to preach the Gospel first. Instead the prophets of old and the apostles laid the foundation, are the foundation, for this heavenly city. Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. Corresponds to Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it
12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted. This is the verse keyed to the title of the article. Outside of the subject matter at hand and as opposed to the erroneous teachings that call the New Jerusalem a physical city from heaven in an imaginary age when there is no evil on the earth. The context of the scripture as a whole says there are nations who do not serve the New Jerusalem. Most in this day and age still do not and many that have are in danger turning away from their service. The main reason for this in an age where millions are coming to Christ is because Christians they have lost their vision of the future in favor of pop culture end times teachings. Teachings that claim evil will prevail in the earths future until a time they believe that Jesus will set up a visible\physical kingdom on earth.
13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. This predicts that the temple of the Lord will be built, beautified by the people of all nations as that is what trees illustrate. Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. It also explains why there is no temple in this heavenly city. Because God's people are his temple. Rev. 21:3...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God....22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it
14 The sons also of them that afflicted you shall come bending to you; and all they that despised you shall bow themselves down at the soles of your feet; and they shall call you; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. The obvious here is this city has feet. Meaning, the New Jerusalem illustrates Gods saints and not a physical city. It is the mother of the saints in the sense that it is the faith of the saints of old gave birth to the children of faith of all nations. The other important part of these verses is the fact that it is the descendants of those who afflicted the saints that bow down to this heavenly city and not those who oppressed the saints. This can not only be seen as the obvious history of the world but also a scenario that repeats it self as the Gospel goes forth to new lands. The pioneers are viciously persecuted and murdered. The new saints live in fear of their lives as they spread the good Word. It is not until circumstances are changed, usually by a good portion of the population coming under the influence of the Gospel and the Word until one can see the descendants of the persecutors bowing themselves down before the heavenly city.
15 Whereas you has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through you, I will make you an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Once more, like Isaiah 54 a reference to the suffering of the saints living under the oppression's of the despotism's and idolatry of the ancient world verses the promise of what was to come. How wonderful it is indeed to live in a nation were the opportunity exists to have the earthly promises of God fulfilled in your life. A nation that many millions built with their blood and treasure. A nation that Christ died for. How dis-honorable it is to see believers totally forsake their duties to maintain that nation because they have accepted false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teachings designed to rob them of their vision thus allowing the wicked to rule those nation.
16 You shall also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shall suck the breast of kings: and you shall know that I the LORD am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make your officers peace, and your exactors righteousness. This is a prophecy of the prosperity of the nations that "serve" the New Jerusalem. Not the prosperity of the ancient world or the world that has not been dramatically influenced by the Gospel. Places where the rulers and their supporters became extremely wealthy by the exploiting the labor of the masses. This is the prosperity of nations who abide by the rule of law based on Biblical principle. Where property rights are protected as God given and therefore the creativity of the human spirit is able to blossom. Where the opportunity to create wealth exists for whoever is willing to overcome the obstacles laid in front of them. The lands where justice as defined in scripture prevails and human government is limited to it its practical capacity.
18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, wasting nor destruction within your borders; but you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise. Keep in mind that these as promises are conditional. As prophecies they have come to pass in some places and will come to pass in others that meet the conditions. Further that these are promises to believers in lands that serve the New Jerusalem and not in lands that do not serve it or war against it. They are promises and prophecies to believers in nations where Christians have overcome the wicked in influencing the culture, plus politically. It should also be noted the great peril believers place themselves in when a majority of them have accepted pop culture end times teachings that say this cannot be done; that Bible prophecy says the world will grow more and more evil as time goes on. This, as a false prophecy is basically self fulfilling as it hamstrings the hearts and minds of the very people needed most in bestowing the knowledge needed in a nation to fulfill these wonderful words.
19 The sun shall be no more your light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light to you: but the LORD shall be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no more go down; neither shall your moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended. Rev. 21-22 quotes these verses. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Or, there are many other NT verses that in meaning correspond to this. John 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life
21 Your people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. Rev. 21 says the same thing. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Just as 1st Corinthians 5:21 points out Gods purpose. To turn people from sin to righteousness. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Of course inheriting the land means the whole earth as articulated in many places in the scripture: Mathew 5:55 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. In a time when Gods saints are walking in darkness concerning the times and the seasons of Bible prophecy; this particular verse carries extra importance. The Lord will bring about all of these good things quickly in its time. Not when Jesus came. Not when the Gospel was first preached to the nations or new to a nation today. Not even when kings and emperors claimed Christianity. But..in its time! That time is actually prophesied in the Bible over and over again. However, lets use one more passage about the New Jerusalem to verify exactly what things would be coming to pass "in its time."


Next Up. Isaiah 65
The Bride of Christ
 
Upvote 0

NeedyFollower

Well-Known Member
Feb 29, 2016
1,024
437
63
N Carolina
✟71,145.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Celibate
The main reason for this in an age where millions are coming to Christ is because Christians they have lost their vision of the future in favor of pop culture end times teachings. Teachings that claim evil will prevail in the earths future until a time they believe that Jesus will set up a visible\physical kingdom on earth.

Brother....My belief is that we are to demonstrate that God's kingdom is within us now ..not wait until we " go to heaven. " We are to demonstrate love now for faith without works is dead ...it is sterile and can not reproduce . We are to show God's love .
Where we disagree is with history and the concept that this is a christian nation . I do not believe we demonstrated in our actions towards the original inhabitants nor other peoples any humility or meekness. Did Jesus not say ...learn of me ..I am lowly and meek ?
I think it orthodox that we are saved by grace through faith , not of works lest any man should boast . We have salvation because of what God has done , despite who we are . I believe God gives grace to the humble but fights against the proud . God has demonstrated this with both Israel and those countries He used as a sword ( rod ) against Israel in times past to humble them.
In the new covenant , it is a personal salvation composed of men from every tribe and every tongue and every nation . " I pray Father that they all be one as you and I are one . " This is true for everyone born from above though it is against our flesh ...it is why Paul said " I no longer know any man after the flesh ."

that Bible prophecy says the world will grow more and more evil as time goes on. This, as a false prophecy is basically self fulfilling as it hamstrings the hearts and minds of the very people needed most in bestowing the knowledge needed in a nation to fulfill these wonderful words.

No , evil men and seducers have grown worse and worse ...deceiving and being deceived . It is what runs the advertising and TV industry . I come from that . I know . It is seduction and teaches us to love and be defined by stuff . The outward . It is why most TV anchors and politicians are handsome and physically attractive . I think the false christ will promote self rule ..self government ...self everything . shall we follow a proud and selfish jesus ?
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,534
4,827
57
Oregon
✟797,954.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Liberals outraged as Trump....? Why is this even news anymore? If Trump cured cancer, liberals would be outraged.

And, conversely, if Trump is implicated in Jeffrey Epstein's Child Sex trafficking Ring, Conservatives will blame the child Sex Slaves...
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Brother....My belief is that we are to demonstrate that God's kingdom is within us now ..not wait until we " go to heaven. " We are to demonstrate love now for faith without works is dead ...it is sterile and can not reproduce . We are to show God's love .
I believe we are to do that and a lot more.
Where we disagree is with history and the concept that this is a christian nation . I do not believe we demonstrated in our actions towards the original inhabitants nor other peoples any humility or meekness. Did Jesus not say ...learn of me ..I am lowly and meek? I think it orthodox that we are saved by grace through faith , not of works lest any man should boast . We have salvation because of what God has done , despite who we are . I believe God gives grace to the humble but fights against the proud . God has demonstrated this with both Israel and those countries He used as a sword ( rod ) against Israel in times past to humble them.
In the new covenant , it is a personal salvation composed of men from every tribe and every tongue and every nation . " I pray Father that they all be one as you and I are one . " This is true for everyone born from above though it is against our flesh ...it is why Paul said " I no longer know any man after the flesh ."
There is no such thing as a "Christian institution" in the sense you are erroneously trying to build your case with. Not a church, an org or a nation. Only individuals go to heaven or hell based on the criteria you are pointing out. When it come to institutions, organizations, nations. There is only Christian influence. The Bibles influnce, the invisible kingdom of Gods influence that battle against other influences not from God. Your gross error. Your "heresy" so to speak. With which you could never fellowship with me in anyway but on a superficial level is that you believe there is no such thing as a nation being influenced for the better by the things of God. Let me rephrase that. You think you have the Bible all wrapped up on that issue and does not teach us that God's invisible kingdom will influnce nations for the better through real Christians and the Bible. As you said below and on a number of other occasions.
No , evil men and seducers have grown worse and worse ...deceiving and being deceived . It is what runs the advertising and TV industry . I come from that . I know . It is seduction and teaches us to love and be defined by stuff . The outward . It is why most TV anchors and politicians are handsome and physically attractive . I think the false christ will promote self rule ..self government ...self everything . shall we follow a proud and selfish jesus ?
Yet I just showed you multiple chapters of prophesies where they said God's invisible kingdom would influence the nations for the better. Not for a utopia but for the better. The question is: Are you about your fathers business? Is it all about personal salvation, personal development and helping others find personal salvation and personal development? Or is it about even more than that? Apparently more than you are willing or capable of giving. Therein lies the real issue. More than you are willing or capable of doing or giving. I mean if we are to take what you are preaching about the world and take it to its extreme. Why feed the poor, heal the sick, visit widows in their affliction? Just tell them about Jesus that is all they need right? But if Christians are commanded to meet those physical needs if at all possible. Then why are they not commanded to transform the world into a place where there is far less hunger, sickness and widows? Which is greater? Which are you willing AND capable of. I dare say not the later. It would take a massive change of heart, discipleship and long term leaning in the school of hard knocks for the later.

Here is the third chapter of prophecies about how Christians would influnce the world for the better. I would like to point out that these promises CANNOT be fulfilled in their lives unless they influence nations. As they have been been for centuries.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more there an infant of days, nor an old man that has not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and my elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth (children) for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, said the LORD. (AKJV)
Here in this passage we have wonderful promises and prophecies given that as Isaiah 60:22 says will quickly come to pass in its time. These "new" things are to be contrasted to the time period or age that they were written in as prophecy. For instance in the ancient world the average lifespan was approx. 40 years old. In the nations that have been transformed by the Gospel in the last 500 years the average lifespan is doubled and still on the increase. In the ancient world you had no rights other than what the current king or despot allowed you to have based solely on his interests. His interest was other peoples wealth and property which he took at will for himself and to reward his supporters. In the lands that have adopted Biblical principle as the way in which they choose to govern their affairs human government is instituted to protect the private property of individuals. In the ancient world and in fact under all despotic rule children are forfeit to the state or despot to do as they please with them. Half the worlds population through the history of mankind were slaves. If the despot or his supporters wanted your little boys or girls for sexual slaves they simply took them and killed anyone who resisted. In nations that have been sufficiently influenced by the Word of God a couples children are under their charge and tutelage before God. All of these things so many in the western world now take for granted today were as a general rule simply non existent in the ancient world filled with sorrow and crying. So, you see these particular promises and prophecies were not promises just about personal salvation from hell through the sacrifice of the lamb of God. In fact it could be said that the common horrors the ancient world meted out were greatly exasperated for believers since just becoming a believer could get you a death sentence via torture at the hands of the gangsters who governed the world. No, these earthly promises of God written of throughout the scripture were for a time period to come. That time period was prophesied to begin when the Roman Empire fell. Not only do the Bibles prophecies say this; they also prophesied when the Roman Empire would end just as it did in 1453 AD. You can see this in the article End Time Prophecy.
There is one more important note about the timing these promises and prophecies would begin to come to pass as it relates to multiple prophecies about the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God has always existed in the earth and is spoken of as such throughout the scripture. It is on earth an essentially invisible Kingdom. It is seen, for instance, in the miracles that God worked through the hands of Jesus and his apostles. It was also seen by the fact that the Gospel once fully preached in a nation or empire destroyed the power that idolatry had over the people. However it was not seen in the overthrow of despotism until the Bible, illegally mind you, got into the hands of common men in their own languages. In other words. The missing factor that gave men in union with the almighty the power to throw off 6000 years of despotism came when the scripture, the truth, was in the hands of the people to read themselves and to teach others with. This began to occur right when the Roman Empire fell in 1453 AD. Commercial printing presses and brave men periling their lives to translate the scripture into their native languages for the first time in history got the Word into the hands of common men, in this instance northern Europeans. The extermination campaign that had worked for 1400 years by the powers that ruled failed to stop what was happening. This was the beginning of the modern world that so many take for granted, thinking it is somehow their wisdom, strength and goodness that created these freedoms and prosperity we now enjoy. Once one realizes these facts on the ground it becomes very easy to throw off the deceptions of the spirit of Anti-Christ at work in the hearts of men and their political aspirations. Especially the international left that is now in control of the Democrat party in the United States. They seek to use the power of government to keep the scriptures out of the hands of children by banning them from public schools. In higher education they seek to denigrate the Bible and make it as some unclean thing in the eyes of the public. They persecute believers and seek to drive them from positions of trust or influence. With any means possible, be it via law, or judicial decree they seek to destroy the Biblical principle the nation was founded upon; that the people rely on for protection and a good law abiding culture. If one really comprehends the polices the international left seeks to subjugate the nations under it is simple to see that with or without the knowledge of the those who are pushing those policies, they will eventually lead to the despotisms of the ancient world or the nations who have not yet had the time with the Gospel to bring about transformation. This by the way is not a contest of law but a contest of power. Power and influence will be used to either bring the nation back towards Biblical principle or power and coercion will be used to drive it away. So even if many millions more come to Christ. To not fight, to have a doctrine that teaches it is written that the wicked will rule the world means that even a small minority of radical and motivated leftist will rule over the nation. Being a disciple means a bit more than just accepting Jesus Christ as your savior and cleaning up your personal life. Nations will stand or fall based on what believers do. Or as Charles Finney once said during America's second great awakening:
"Brethren, our preaching will bear its legitimate fruits. If immorality prevails in the land, the fault is ours in a great degree. If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discrimination, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in religion, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that the very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it. Let us not ignore this fact, my dear brethren; but let us lay it to heart, and be thoroughly awake to our responsibility in respect to the morals of this nation."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
7,056
3,767
✟290,234.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
The early Christians were resented because they were behaving like Christ.

Christians today are being resented because they have behaved like jerks.

You think the early Christians who refused to abide by roman customs and ways of living weren't perceived of as Jerks?

While it was more serious back then, Christians genuinely offended sensible Roman society and it's sensibilities by their beliefs and actions. Reminds me of what's happening today.

You can say modern Christians are Jerks, but then Christians have always been jerks to the society they've challenged.
 
Upvote 0