Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

mkgal1 · Jul 7, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Once all Gentiles be coming in, it is DONE DEAL. All Israel shall be saved.

We don't have to wait for anything to make the claim (without error) that ALL Israel was and continues to ALL be saved, because True Israel only includes the Root of Jesse and the branches of faithful and believing Jews and Gentiles ( all saved). Israel = "People of God".
The numbers don't matter, really (whether it's 12; 3,000; or gazillions) - only the faithful & obedient believers are the True Israel... and they, in that group, are ALL saved.

As jgr posted:
Only the faithful and obedient remnant would be saved (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:4,5,23,26).

I particularly appreciate how you worded this:

Tribulation Signs said:
Can you show us a verse or two "as it is written" elsewhere in Scripture that confirms verse 26? Which Israel did God made a new covenant with? A physical nation of Israel or Spiritual Covenant Israel? Hint: which one that bears the Gentile branches and the root of Christ along with the Jews?

claninja · Jul 7, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Just because the Old Covenant in and of itself may have been done away with, that does not mean all things within the Old Covenant were done away with as well and that includes any promises the Lord has made.

The old covenant was an agreement between God and the nation of Israel. IF Israel obeyed all of the commandments in the law of moses, they would be blessed with specific earthly blessings (deuteronomy 28:1-14). IF Israel did not obey all of the commandments in the law of moses, they would be cursed with specific earthly curses (deuteronomy 28:15-68).

The old covenant agreement also stated that after the specific earthly blessings and curses had been poured out (deuteronomy 28-29), then WHEN the nation of Israel would return to the Lord, He would restore them from captivity and bring them back to the land.(deuteronomy 30:1-5).

These are very specific promissory clauses for the nation of Israel found in the old covenant. IF the old covenant was made obsolete and is no longer an agreement between the nation of Israel and God, then these promissory clauses are now null and void.

Daniel confirms the curses of the law were poured out on the nation of Israel (Daniel 9:11), thus fulfilling the promissory clauses in the old covenant agreement (deuteronomy 28:15-68 and Deuteronomy 29).

Jeremiah confirms that the restoring from captivity and being brought back from the land would occur after 70 years of Babylonian exile (Jeremiah 29:10-14) thus fulfilling the promissory clauses of the old covenant (deuteronomy 30:1-5).

Contenders Edge said:
. And one promise that has not been done away with has been the promise of restoration when the people of Israel repent and turn to God once more because He has made promises to the nation and people of Israel that He has not made to any other nation or people; promises that will last forever.

Depends on what you mean by "restoration". If you mean the nation of Israel's restoration to the present physical land of Israel, well that promise was made null and void, as the old covenant was taken away and made obsolete by Christ (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).

We don't get to cherry pick which promises and curses from the old covenant are still in effect today to suit our eschatological biases. The conditional agreement (old covenant) between the nation of Israel and God is obsolete. To cherry pick and say some of the promissory clauses from the old covenant are not done away with means the old covenant is still in effect, which contradicts NT scripture.

Contenders Edge said:
What would be a great discussion and even a Bible study topic would be what was done away with when the Old Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant and what was carried over into the New Covenant but that is for another thread.

Which specific laws and commandments, that the nation of Israel had to obey under the old covenant, that were subsequently fulfilled by Christ is not the OP (although that would be a great discussion for another thread). Whether the civil, ceremonial, or moral parts of the law of moses remain or have been changed is not what's in question here. What is in question here is if the promissory clauses (curses and blessings) in regards the nation of Israel's obedience and/or disobedience to the civil, ceremonial, and moral parts of the law are still in effect.

My argument is no, they are not still in effect. They have been made null and void and are now superseded by better promises under the new covenant. To say that they are still in effect would be to say that the old covenant (the agreement between the nation of Israel and God) is still in effect, and this would contradict NT scripture.

However, if the promise of land restoration is still in effect, we should easily be able to find it in the new covenant. However, no one in the forum who promotes physical land restoration has yet provided a specific verse from the NT that shows the 1st century body of Christ was looking forward to land restoration.

Contenders Edge said:
Yes and as it has been written, if the Jew’s rejection of Christ was turned around to bring about the reconciliation of the world to God, how much more so when they turn from their rejection of Him to receiving of Him as their Messiah? (Rom. 11:12)

none of this mentions physical land restoration for the nation of Israel. In fact, Paul doesn't state their acceptance of Christ is restoration to the physical land, he states it is life from the dead.

Romans 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

Contenders Edge said:
The Old Covenant system, in and of itself, no. But the promises made concerning the nation and people of Israel, yes. As I have said, it would make for an informative Bible study and another thread topic about what ended with Old Covenant and what was carried over from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant.

Deciding which earthly promissory clauses are still in effect, related to the nation of Israel's obedience/disobedience to the law of moses would be cherry picking based on eschatological bias. Again we are not discussing which laws (civil, ceremonial, and moral) have been done away with through Christ's fulfillment of them. We are discussing, the nation of Israel's agreement (old covenant) to obey the laws in order to receive blessings and avoid curses. To say which blessings and curses are still in effect would be cherry picking, especially, since the agreement between God and the nation of israel has been done away with and superseded by a new covenant with better promises.

Contenders Edge said:
There are some who would place the title of David upon Christ and there are those who believe that Christ will set David as a king over Israel. But because that prophecy has not yet come to pass, we will not know which viewpoint will be vindicated for sure.

Who is the one shepherd, David or Christ?

Contenders Edge said:
But scripture can be read straight forward and understood from a literal interpretation but the reason why so many are blinded to that fact is because they cling to the opinions of self-professed scholars and theologians and accept them as doctrine, having not learned to follow the example of the Bereans of whom it was said “searched the scriptures daily” to determine whether what they were being taught was true. (Acts 17:11)

Does being born again literally mean coming out of the womb a 2nd time? or was Christ using an earthly picture to give a heavenly meaning? So was the law. It was a shadow, an earthly picture, pointing to the heavenly reality, which is Christ. How could we understand that unless Christ gave us the Spirit?

Contenders Edge said:
That they are officially a recognized and independent nation is a fulfillment of prophecy. (Ezek. 37:22) Their official recognition as an independent nation is proof of this. The next thing to happen will be their spiritual renewal made complete in Christ when He returns.

Was Israel recognized as an independent nation by the persian empire upon its return from exile in fulfillment of prophecy? No, Israel was not recognized by Persia as an independent nation. So it would be incorrect to state that 1948 fulfills prophecy, as being recognized by world powers as an independent nation is not a requirement for prophecy to be fulfilled.

Contenders Edge said:
Daniel may have been somewhat of a time frame (70 weeks) but John was not.

John was given a time frame: soon and at hand.

Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Daniel was given a time frame: many days from now

Daniel 8:26 The vision of the evenings and the mornings that has been told is true, but seal up the vision, for it refers to many days from now.”

To say Daniel's vision of "many days from now" is +2,500 years, while John's vision of "at hand" is +2,000 years doesn't really make any sense. what is the purpose of giving time statements if a long time can mean +2,500 years and at hand can mean +2,000 years? In terms of thousands of years, a difference of 500 wouldn't make one "many days from now", while the other 'at hand'.

Contenders Edge said:
Peter knew that the Lord could have returned in his day and just as easily a thousand years later. Otherwise, why would Peter have made that statement?

I would disagree. Peter knew the end of all things was at hand, because Jesus told him so.

1 peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.

Matthew 24:34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place

Contenders Edge said:
The known world was not the entire world. And what historical evidence is there that they witnessed numerous wars, nations rising against nation and kingdom and against kingdom? In their day, the Roman empire had no rivals.

There were multiple Roman wars in the 1st century. Additionally Rome was comprised of multiple nations.

Roman-Parthian war
Roman civil war
Romans germanic wars
Jewish Roman war

Contenders Edge said:
And what famines (other than the one that the prophet Agabus had foretold) did they witness and in how many places around the world did they occur?

These were signs leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem. Why would we rule out the prophet Agabus' prediction of famine spreading across the roman world (sometime during 41-54)?

Contenders Edge said:
How many earthquakes took place in their day, and how widespread were they?

again these were signs leading up to the fall of Jerusalem in 70ad.

You want a specific count on earthquakes that took place 2,000 years ago? There were many earthquakes throughout the roman world in the 1st century. One such earth destroyed, Colossea, Hierapolis, and Laodicea around 60ad.

or how about from Seneca in 58ad

"How often have the cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! How many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! How many in Macedonia! How often has Paphos become a ruin. News has often been brought to us of the demolition of whole cities at once."

Contenders Edge said:
Despite this, none of the Apostles attempted to declare an exact date of the Lord’s return because they were specifically told that the time would not be known despite the fact that there have been others since then who have declared to know the time only to be proven liars.

this in no way addresses, that James states the coming of the lord is at hand and that he was standing at the door.

GospelS · Jul 7, 2019

TribulationSigns said:
Uh-uh.

Romans 11:25 says we should not be "ignorant of this mystery" means that the answer is there but it is a mystery for a reason. Only those with the Spirit and wise of Christ will it be revealed to them. The rest do not. Therefore, you do need to study some more if you want to know the Truth. It seems that you gave up and make some excuses like "No one knows but only God knows," AFTER you posted earlier that you insisted that the physical land of Israel will be restored filled with Jews after the time of the Gentiles, an erroneous interpretation of Luke 21:24, You can start review yourself here.

Romans 11
25 ....partial hardening upon Israel
26 And in this way all Israel
The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob
27 .....this will be my covenant with them
28 ....for the sake of their forefathers.

Israel, Zion, Jacob, Covenant with them, their Forefathers

All through Romans 11 Paul so clearly differentiated between Israel and gentiles. And still you will say that the Israel he referred in verse 26 is a spiritual one (mix of Jews and gentiles). Ok. Take care.

mkgal1 · Jul 7, 2019

gospels said:
It is by God removing their blindness so that they can receive/come to faith.

Didn't God remove the blindness of Paul - and the other disciples - and the 3,000 Jewish believers on the Day of Pentecost?

gospels said:
No one knows but only God knows whether it is all physical Israel or not.

TS had an excellent answer to this:

TribulationSigns said:
Romans 11:25 says we should not be "ignorant of this mystery" means that the answer is there but it is a mystery for a reason. Only those with the Spirit and wise of Christ will it be revealed to them. The rest do not. Therefore, you do need to study some more if you want to know the Truth. It seems that you gave up and make some excuses like "No one knows but only God knows," AFTER you posted earlier that you insisted that the physical land of Israel will be restored filled with Jews after the time of the Gentiles, an erroneous interpretation of Luke 21:24,

gospels said:
All through Romans 11 Paul so clearly differentiated between Israel and gentiles. And still you will say that the Israel he referred in verse 26 is a spiritual one (mix of Jews and gentiles). Ok. Take care.

True.....Paul DID recognize the distinction....but Paul ALSO seemed to be making this MAIN point - that there would be no longer a separation between them (the True Israel):

Ephesians 2:11-15 ~ Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands—remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in his flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

and Paul also wrote this:

Romans 11:1 ~
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

GospelS · Jul 7, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Didn't God remove the blindness of Paul - and the other disciples - and the 3,000 Jewish believers on the Day of Pentecost?

Did I say God did not do it. Of course, He did. So I’m not sure why you are asking this.

I did not find any answer in what TS replied. No one but only God knows if all physical Israel will be saved or not.

Israel that Paul is talking about in Romans 11 is about the physical offspring of Israel who rejected Christ (and lost their status are cut off from their tree but will later be grafted back into their original tree). Don’t have to mix it up with Ephesians 2.

keras · Jul 7, 2019

Interesting discussion here.
What people seem incapable of knowing -because God does have a secret about His people, is how the 10 Northern tribes: the House of Israel, are still scattered among the nations.
As the House of Judah has wrongly called themselves the Jewish State of Israel, leading people to think they are the only Israel. This contradicts much scripture, which plainly tells us that all who believe in God and have faith in the Atonement of Jesus for them, ARE the Israel of God.
The majority of those who have accepted Christianity are those of the Western nations who; as many proofs attest to, ARE descended from the House of Israel. They were taken into exile by Assyria and resettled in the Caucasus region. They migrated from there thru Europe and around the world, the Caucasian peoples and have prospered as Jacob and Moses said they would.

This is the truth, despite the objections those people whose beliefs are shown to be wrong by it.
God chose a people, they sinned and He exiled them, but for a decreed period. Ezekiel 4:4-6 All the Prophets make a clear distinction between the two Houses, they each have a different outcome in the end times.

GospelS · Jul 7, 2019

@jgr
@TribulationSigns
@mkgal1

So you are saying it is not physical Israel since Paul mentioned “all Israel”?

Let me tell you in the scriptures when a Israelite says, “all Israel”, they are referring to their 12 tribes which make them all Israel, for them.

While i do not know if all physical Israel will be saved, I do know that all Israel mentioned in Romans 11:26 is referring to their people from all their tribes which make up all Israel.

mkgal1 · Jul 7, 2019

gospels said:
Did I say God did not do it. Of course, He did. So I’m not sure why you are asking this.

I asked that, because the general belief of those that make claims about a FUTURE Israel that God is going to fulfill overlook that the beginning of what they base their beliefs on has already occurred - thousands of years ago (and the one they're quoting was one of the best examples of that happening in the PAST - at the beginning of early church).

gospels said:
I did not find any answer in what TS replied. No one but only God knows if all physical Israel will be saved or not.

What I was pointing out the TS had posted, specifically, was this:

Quoting TS:
"Romans 11:25 says we should not be "ignorant of this mystery" means that the answer is there...."

You are making the assumption that this is about *physical Israel*. As long as you make that assumption - you are not going to "see" the mystery Paul was writing about.

It has to be some kind of Israel that is ALL saved, because that's what Romans 11:26 states:

And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

gospels said:
Israel that Paul is talking about in Romans 11 is about the physical offspring of Israel who rejected Christ (and lost their status are cut off from their tree but will later be grafted back into their original tree). Don’t have to mix it up with Ephesians 2.

Are these people going to come out of their graves....or how do you believe this is going to happen? Do you believe ALL that reject Christ will get this second opportunity - or just this group? Doesn't that go against so much that God spoke about not giving certain groups partiality?

mkgal1 · Jul 7, 2019

I was still typing my last post when you'd posted this:

gospels said:
Ok. I understand why you are saying that the verse in Romans 11:26 is not about physical one. It is because paul mentioned ALL, so you are including the whole olive tree combined with gentiles.

Well....yes, that's the context.

gospels said:
Let me tell you in scriptures when a Israelite says, “all Israel”, they are referring to their 12 tribes which make them all Israel, for them

Paul wrote those words in Romans 11:26 - AND Paul is also an Israelite - and he doesn't appear to be referring to the 12 tribes when he writes about "and in this way ALL Israel will be saved" (remember that Jesus spoke a parable about the kingdom being taken away in Matthew 21:42-44?).

gospels said:
So I still do not know if all physical Israel will be saved but I do know that the all Israel mentioned in Romans 11:26 is about physical offspring because it’s is referring to people from all their tribes.

And how do you KNOW this? Even the group of Israelites were not all physical offspring from the early beginning. It's not about being "born" into the group - but about being brought into the households and being obedient to the statutes. Look at Genesis 17:26, for instance:

Genesis 17:26 ~ And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

mkgal1 · Jul 7, 2019

Romans 11:28 ~ As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarch.

They, in this verse, (in my belief) = apostate Israelites.

Romans 11:30-32 ~ Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [apostate Israelite's] disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they [apostate Israel] too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you [Gentiles]. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Every one may then come to God on equal footing (all are sinners in need of salvation).

claninja · Jul 7, 2019

keras said:
The majority of those who have accepted Christianity are those of the Western nations who; as many proofs attest to, ARE descended from the House of Israel. They were taken into exile by Assyria and resettled in the Caucasus region. They migrated from there thru Europe and around the world, the Caucasian peoples and have prospered as Jacob and Moses said they would.

British Israelism is a unprofitable doctrine based on a pseudoarcheological movement. There is no absolute evidence to support it.

According to scripture, intact tribal descendants of the northern kingdom were found in the southern kingdom Pre Assyrian exile, during the assyrian exile, post Babylonian exile, and even in the 1st century. Thus the term Jew is inclusive of those from all 12 tribes.

Pre-Assyrian Exile
2 chronicles 15:9 And he assembled all Judah and Benjamin, along with those from the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon who had settled among them, for great numbers had come over to him from Israel when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.

During Assyrian Exile
2 Chronicles 30:11 Nevertheless, some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 30:18 A large number of the people—many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun—had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover, contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah interceded for them, saying, “May the LORD, who is good, provide atonement for everyone

Post Babylonian Exile
1 Chronicles 9:1-3 all Israel was recorded in the genealogies written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. But Judah was exiled to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness. Now the first to resettle their own property in their cities were Israelites, priests, Levites, and temple servants. These were some of the descendants of Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh who lived in Jerusalem:

1st century Judea
Luke 2:36 There was also a prophetess named Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was well along in years. She had been married for seven years

Those from the northern kingdom, who did not move to the southern kingdom, were exiled by Assryia and divorced by God to no longer be his people (hosea 1:9). From the time of the Assyrian exile to the first advent of Christ (700 years), the exiled and divorced descendants of the northern kingdom that did not return to Israel would mix with the nations (hosea 7:8) and become a multitude of GENTILES in fulfillment of Jacob's blessing to Ephraim (genesis 48:19).

However, God did promise that one day these exiled and divorced peoples would once again be his people (hosea 1:10 and 2:23).

Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled with inclusion of the GENTILES with the Jews in the vessels of mercy (romans 9:24-26) in the 1st century. Thus, it is by the inclusion of the gentiles, of whom some have descended from the northern kingdom, with the jews in the vessels that God fulfills his promises to reunite the descendants of Ephraim with Judah.

An earthly example:

I tell you I am going to catch Tuna. I then drag a net behind my boat and catch all kinds of fish: tarpon, mahi mahi, dorado, sword fish, and tuna. Now, even though I caught all kinds of fish, is my first statement still true, that I caught tuna?

So it is with the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is like a net that gathers all kinds of fish (matthew 13:47). God promised that one day he would gather the descendants of Ephraim back to him. He fulfills this through new covenant/kingdom of God. The kingdom gathers all kinds of people from every race, nation, and tribe, and in doing so, gathers those who have descended from Ephraim thus fulfilling his promises to those people. That does not, in no shape, way, or form preclude those who did not descend from the 10 northern tribes as being a part of the body of Christ.

There is no way to prove that descendants of Ephraim are Caucasians or that they migrated solely to europe. Nor does it even matter, considering that abrahamic DNA is ubiquitous. Race or tribal affiliation does not matter for He can even turns stones into sons of Abraham. God has united all who are in Christ, regardless of race, nation, or tribal affiliation, into one body, in the new covenant.

claninja · Jul 7, 2019

gospels said:
@jgr
@TribulationSigns
@mkgal1

Ok. I understand why you are saying that the verse in Romans 11:26 is not about physical one. It is because paul mentioned ALL, so you are including the whole olive tree combined with the grafted-in gentiles.

Let me tell you in scriptures when a Israelite says, “all Israel”, they are referring to their 12 tribes which make them all Israel, for them.

So I still do not know if all physical Israel will be saved but I do know that the all Israel mentioned in Romans 11:26 is about physical offspring because it’s is referring to their people from all their tribes which make up all Israel.

Paul states that a part of Israel was hardened until the fullness of the gentiles/nations have come in and so all israel will be saved.
Romans 11:25-26 do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

What needs to be understood, is that the greek word for until (achri), isn't always a cessation point. For example, did Israel stop multiplying when a new king in Egypt arose who did not know Joseph?

Acts 7:17-18 But as the time of the promise drew near, which God had granted to Abraham, the people increased and multiplied in Egypt UNTIL (achri) there arose over Egypt another king who did not know Joseph.

No, in fact they multiplied even more:

Exodus 1:8-12 Now there arose a new king over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. And he said to his people, “Behold, the people of Israel are too many and too mighty for us. Come, let us deal shrewdly with them, lest they multiply, and, if war breaks out, they join our enemies and fight against us and escape from the land.”Therefore they set taskmasters over them to afflict them with heavy burdens. They built for Pharaoh store cities, Pithom and Raamses. But the more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and the more they spread abroad. And the Egyptians were in dread of the people of Israel.

Thus achri (until) doesn't necessarily mean cessation, but can mean during or while, which is supported by Strong's exhaustive concordance:

Or achris akh'-rece; akin to akron (through the idea of a terminus); (of time) until or (of place) up to -- as far as, for, in(-to), till, (even, un-)to, until, while.

Therefore, it is more appropriate to understand Paul's mystery in that a part of the nation Israel was hardened during/while the gentiles come in and so all israel will be saved. This aligns with Paul's overarching argument (romans 9-11) much better. This also aligns much better with paul's argument that anyone, Jew or gentile, who is in Christ is Israel (galatians 3:28-29).

Paul states that only a remnant of Israel is saved (romans 9:27) and yet all of israel is saved (romans 11:26). how is this possible? because not all of biological Israel is true Israel (romans 9:6). Thus a part of biological Israel was hardened (the remnant was saved) while the nations came to Christ, and in this way all of Israel is saved: the remnant of Jews and the grafted in gentiles. This does not preclude those who were hardened from returning to Christ (romans 11:23, 31). But this does not mean that all of biological Israel would return to God, for as prophesied, only a remnant would be saved (romans 9:27).

Turning Achri (until) into a cessation point means that the eventually the hardening of biological would be removed, the nations would stop coming to christ, and all of biological Israel would be saved after that. This contradicts that only a remnant of biological israel would be saved (romans 9:27).

pasifika · Jul 7, 2019

gospels said:
@jgr
@TribulationSigns
@mkgal1

Ok. I understand. So you are saying it is not physical Israel since Paul mentioned “all Israel”?

Let me tell you in the scriptures when a Israelite says, “all Israel”, they are referring to their 12 tribes which make them all Israel, for them.

While i do not know if all physical Israel will be saved, I do know that all Israel mentioned in Romans 11:26 is referring to their people from all their tribes which make up all Israel.

Hello, thank you for continuing this very important topic, I just want to share my take on Romans 11:26... (excuse my writing...)
Romans 11:25,26...shows the two groups that comprises the Israel of God (faithful physical Israel & faithful Gentiles )...verse 26..is referring to both groups as Israel...(Israel =12 tribes )

You mentioned a very good point..."Israel comprises of 12 tribes...

Since I already made my point that Romans 11:26 is referring to both the physical Israel and Gentiles as ISRAEL...

So, the question is, what tribe (from 12 tribes of Israel ) the Gentiles identify themselves with in Romans 11:26...

The Answer is found everywhere in the New Testament...there is ONLY ONE TRIBE IN ISRAEL the Gentiles Identify themselves with...

God bless

keras · Jul 8, 2019

claninja said:
There is no way to prove that descendants of Ephraim are Caucasians or that they migrated solely to europe. Nor does it even matter, considering that abrahamic DNA is ubiquitous. Race or tribal affiliation does not matter for He can even turns stones into sons of Abraham. God has united all who are in Christ, regardless of race, nation, or tribal affiliation, into one body, in the new covenant.

The usual tired accusation of British Israelism.
They were too radical, but did have a lot correct and they did prove that the ancestry of the Western nations is mainly Israelite.
But as I said, these truths are rejected by people whose beliefs are contradicted by them.

God does know who His people are. He will restore, redeem and

gather them into their heritage. Ezekiel 20:34-38

jgr · Jul 8, 2019

keras said:
The usual tired accusation of British Israelism.
They were too radical, but did have a lot correct and they did prove that the ancestry of the Western nations is mainly Israelite.
But as I said, these truths are rejected by people whose beliefs are contradicted by them.

God does know who His people are. He will restore, redeem and

gather them into their heritage. Ezekiel 20:34-38

Israelite ancestry is ubiquitous in every nation.

God's only interest is spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience, and nothing else.

keras · Jul 8, 2019

jgr said:
Israelite ancestry is ubiquitous in every nation.

God's only interest is spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience, and nothing else.

So you know what God is really interested in?
Perhaps you could explain it for us. Start with: why are we here? Then: What is our purpose? What will be the final outcome of it all?

A hard question for you would be: Why did God choose a special people? Did He reject them forever?

jgr · Jul 8, 2019

keras said:
So you know what God is really interested in?
Perhaps you could explain it for us. Start with: why are we here? Then: What is our purpose? What will be the final outcome of it all?

A hard question for you would be: Why did God choose a special people? Did He reject them forever?

Not hard at all. Peter informs us who God's special people are. He will never reject them.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Those verses should be in your Bible as well.

Your turn.

Tell us what you think God is interested in.

With Scripture.

mkgal1 · Jul 8, 2019

Excellent, jgr.

And just so people don't get confused and believe that God changed His mind about having partiality in the OT - He didn't. He made His eternal desires clear here (in my opinion, anyway). This seems to be what He'd planned for all along:

Isaiah 56 ~

Salvation for Foreigners

This is what the LORD says:

“Maintain justice and do what is right,

for My salvation is coming soon,

and My righteousness will be revealed.

Blessed is the man who does this,

and the son of man who holds it fast,

who keeps the Sabbath without profaning it,

and keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

Let no foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,

“The LORD will utterly exclude me from His people.”

And let the eunuch not say,

“I am but a dry tree.”

For this is what the LORD says:

“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,

who choose what pleases Me

and hold fast to My covenant—

I will give them, in My house and within My walls,

a memorial and a name

better than that of sons and daughters.

I will give them an everlasting name

that will not be cut off.

And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD

to minister to Him,

to love the name of the LORD,

and to be His servants—

all who keep the Sabbath without profaning it

and who hold fast to My covenant—

I will bring them to My holy mountain

and make them joyful in My house of prayer.

Their burnt offerings and sacrifices

will be accepted on My altar,

for My house will be called a house of prayer

for all the nations.”

Thus declares the Lord GOD,

who gathers the dispersed of Israel:

“I will gather to them still others

besides those already gathered.”

keras · Jul 8, 2019

jgr said:
Not hard at all. Peter informs us who God's special people are. He will never reject them.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Those verses should be in your Bible as well.

Your turn.

Tell us what you think God is interested in.

With Scripture.

I agree that everyone has the chance to become a child of God.
People from every tribe, race, nation and language will praise God in Jerusalem, soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath has cleared and cleansed all of the holy Land. Revelation 6:12-17, Rev 7:1-14

But what you don't like and I can't see why, is how God does have a people whom He originally chose, but who failed in their task to be His witnesses and to display God's glory to the world. So He scattered them around the world and then sent Jesus to tell them the Gospel. Matthew 15:24 I was sent to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
This scripture is quite explicit, but we know Salvation is open to all who will accept it.
Acts 10

You avoid acknowledging how all the prophesies about the people in the holy Land, in the end times, is about how they will be Redeemed, restored, brought back to their heritage and given hearts of flesh, all their sins forgiven and the sins of the forefathers expiated by their long exile. Isaiah 27:7-10, Isaiah 51:22, Jeremiah 30:11, +

Amos 9:9 and many other scriptures make it clear that God does have a people whom He is keeping His eyes on, a people who have now accepted the Gospel, who are mainly, in fact: actual descendants of Jacob.
Sure, many others will join them, as has always happened, but the majority of the faithful Christians, must be actual members of one of the 12 tribes, in order for God's promises to the Patriarchs to be fulfilled.
In two ways; by faith; Galatians 3:26-29 and by descent as we see in Revelation 7:9.

jgr · Jul 8, 2019

keras said:
Amos 9:9 and many other scriptures make it clear that God does have a people whom He is keeping His eyes on, a people who have now accepted the Gospel, who are mainly, in fact: actual descendants of Jacob.

Will God ignore Acts 10:34,35 for descendants of Jacob?

The entire human race are descendants of Jacob.

Will God ignore Acts 10:34,35 for the entire human race?

Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

A Daughter of Zion Seeking Her Father in Heaven!

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

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