Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

DavidPT said:

We have to use common sense here. No sane person would think a day only means a thousand years to the Lord, and that it can never also mean 24 hours to Him as well. Context determines what something means.

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Then why are numbers even used in the Bible if the meaning is fluid but literal when you want?

mkgal1 said:

He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”

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DavidPT said:

Because I used it to show that it rendered thousand as thousands, and in Psalms 90:4

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And I wanted to show you an example where "thousand" was shown to clearly NOT be literal (instead, it's rendered as "forever").

DavidPT said:

Because I used it to show that it rendered thousand as thousands, and in Psalms 90:4 it rendered it as a thousand, that having to do with some arguing that thousand in Revelation 20 is meaning a plural.

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That's not been my argument (that "thousand" means plural). My understanding is that symbolically it represents this:

Symbolism of the Number 1000

The number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. It is often used in scripture to specify an indefinite quantity. Many early Church fathers saw in the number 1,000, “the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life.” The number sometimes is used in a reference to paradise and everlasting happiness. The Meaning of Numbers: The Number 1000 - Scripture Revealed

mkgal1 said:

mkgal1 said: ↑
Who said anything about "literally dead"?

This is what was being discussed at that moment (NOT literal death, but the death that was brought into this world through Adam):

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And again I say to you "Why do you ask such a foolish question when the evidences are in the preceding posts.?"

Are you not talking about someone physically dead as in literally dead? Tell us all here to see, did you not make any of these comment in preceding posts?

Evidence 1


Tell us, did you not post the above about Jesus' death on the cross or did you meant Jesus never physically died on the cross but His death was a spiritual death separating Him from God?

So you're not talking about Someone literally dead on the cross here?


Evidence 2



Tell us here also. Is that not you who posted that verse about a physical death. When one dies and is buried, is that person not literally dead?

Or are you still trying to tell everyone this is another spiritual death of yours?


Evidence 3



Here's another one. Are you not talking about a physical death here as in literally dead, buried in the grave? This doesn't look like a spiritual dead to me either.

All the above were just from the first page alone. I can quote more posts with more evidences that you did in fact wrote about people being literally dead.

So to answer your question about "Who said anything about "literally dead"?


My answer is the same as before!

"Why do you ask such a foolish question when the evidences are in the preceding posts."

Now if you really want to look downright dimwitted, I can post numerous posts BABerean2 posted about one being literally dead from here and other threads.

Ahhhh, just what we need, another Biff Tannen moment on CF.

BABerean2 said:

Being a true follower of Christ is like being pregnant.
You either are, or you are not.
See Romans 8:9.

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A woman in labor is always depicted as Israel in the entire bible, never the church!

Jeremiah 30:5-7 NKJV
5 "For thus says the Lord: 'We have heard a voice of trembling, Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see, Whether a man is ever in labor with child? So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins Like a woman in labor, And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it.

BABerean2 said:

The version given by you is an invention of men.

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And your Pastor Wagner is also promoting an invention of men! He claims Lucifer is Jesus Christ.


Even the King James and the New King James translate Lucifer as satan in the book of Isaiah.

Your Pastor is pushing blasphemy, is clueless and gives a bad name to pastors everywhere. He has no idea what the biblical definition of morning star means.

Revelation 2:26-29 NKJV
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations--
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'-- as I also have received from My Father;
28 and I will give him the morning star.
29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."


So BAB, do you know what is the morning star? I know, but do you know?

Wait! Nevermind don't answer. I already know what your one-side-fits-all reply will be.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Seville90210 said:

A woman in labor is always depicted as Israel in the entire bible, never the church!

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All attempts to keep Israel and the Church separated fall apart in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-28, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, because the New Covenant was promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes" who were his "brethren" in the "faith".
Who was James taking to in James 1:1-3?

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Seville90210 said:

Your Pastor is pushing blasphemy, is clueless and gives a bad name to pastors everywhere. He has no idea what the biblical definition of morning star means.

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First of all, Pastor Wagner is not my Pastor.

He is accountable to the word of God, just as we are.

However, I agree with him 100% that many of the "modern" translations have corrupted the Word of God.

The Textus Receptus Greek texts which were used as the basis for the 1599 Geneva Bible, and the KJV, and the NKJV, was quoted by Early Church Father Cyprian about 250 AD. It is older than the texts which were found in a Catholic Monastery, and later promoted by Westcott, and Hort.


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BABerean2 said:

The Textus Receptus Greek texts which were used as the basis for the 1599 Geneva Bible, and the KJV, and the NKJV, was quoted by Early Church Father Cyprian about 250 AD. It is older than the texts which were found in a Catholic Monastery, and later promoted by Westcott, and Hort.

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Ok than, explain to us what the biblical explanation of morning star is with verses from the Textus Receptus.

Seville90210 said:

Ok than, explain to us what the biblical explanation of morning star is with verses from the Textus Receptus.

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Revelation 22:16

(KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

(KJV+) IG1473 JesusG2424 have sentG3992 mineG3450 angelG32 to testifyG3140 unto youG5213 these thingsG5023 inG1909 theG3588 churches.G1577 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 rootG4491 andG2532 theG3588 offspringG1085 of David,G1138 and theG3588 brightG2986 andG2532 morningG3720 star.G792

G3720
ὀρθρινός
orthrinos
or-thrin-os'
From G3722; relating to the dawn, that is, matutinal (as an epithet of Venus, especially brilliant in the early day): - morning.
Total KJV occurrences: 1


G792
ἀστήρ
astēr
as-tare'
Probably from the base of G4766; a star (as strown over the sky), literally or figuratively: - star.
Total KJV occurrences: 24

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DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If it is after death only a bodily resurrection appears to be applicable. If it is before death only a spiritual resurrection appears to be applicable.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

This is the first resurrection



The text states this----and I saw the souls of them

Then the text goes on to state this----and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

How should that be understood?

Like such?

and the souls of them lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Or like such instead?

and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

One thing we do know is this, or at least we should if we don't. and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years---equals this---This is the first resurrection.

What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years. One can't reign with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin. Nor can one reign with Christ a thousand years when the thousand years have expired. This would indicate, assuming the first resurrection is spiritual, meaning when one is initially saved in this age, no one can be saved during satan's little season in that case. The reason being, you can't have the first resurrection without the reigning of a thousand years. satan's little season is after the thousand years.

The question then is this. The martyrs in Revelation 20:4, are they already reigning with Christ a thousand years when they are initially martyred? Or because they have been martyred, they then reign with

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Christ a thousand years at some later point in the future?

The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. The latter would imply they are resurrected after they have already physically died first. The former would fit a position such as Amil. The latter, a position such as Premil. The way the text reads to me, it is the latter. And I'm not just saying that because I'm Premil. I'm saying that because that is literally how the text reads to me.

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Paul sums up what happens when Jesus returns here:

The Coming of the Lord

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep (all the saved in the grave - including the martyrs).

15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. (it's going to be a noisy event) And the dead in Christ (saved dead - 1st resurrection - including the martyrs) will rise first.

17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds (living saved translated) to meet the Lord in the air, and so we (all saved) will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

All the unsaved living are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

“With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
“Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

The 1,000 year reign is in heaven, afterwards the 2nd resurrection happens

The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections.

1 Corinthians 6:3

Do you not know that we will judge angels?

During this time (1,000 years in heaven) the wicked dead will be judged ; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close (after the 1,000 year reign in heaven), Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth.

The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)

All (living saved and unsaved) go through the great tribulation, but it is cut short for believers (the living elect at the time). He takes ALL the saved to heaven at His return.

Matthew 24:22

21For at that time there will be great tribulation (just before the return of our Lord), unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect (living believers) ,those days will be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh (living) should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

What does this at least tell us? That the first resurrection can't precede nor follow the thousand years./QUOTE]

It certainly can and does when one realizes the 1,000 reign with Christ takes place in heaven and not on earth and after the 1st resurrection.

The former would imply that the martyred are resurrected while they are still physically alive. /QUOTE] The definition of a martyr

a person who is killed because of their religious or other beliefs.

No such thing as a martyr being alive ... they are killed ... dead.

and the bodily resurrected martyrs lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years/QUOTE] This is correct. Reign in heaven from the 1st resurrection, raised from the dead (grave).

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Seville90210 said:

And again I say to you "Why do you ask such a foolish question when the evidences are in the preceding posts.?"

Are you not talking about someone physically dead as in literally dead? Tell us all here to see, did you not make any of these comment in preceding posts?

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Why are you seeming to attempt to distort the reality of where the discussion was at this point? Everyone can go back and read - but you're excluding what was being addressed at the time, which was spiritual death (going through a bit of trouble in order to do so, even, Frankensteining the discussion).

Here's the link to read - in full - how the discussion ACTUALLY went: Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?

Post #34 is where you'd quoted Baberean's comments about *spriritual* death/and responded with this comment: Is the 1st resurrection initially being applied before or after death?


In your post (#38) you even posted this - but don't seem to understand that it's contradicting your assertions:

Seville90210 said:

Question: "What is eternal life?"

Answer: When the Bible speaks of eternal life, it refers to a gift of God that comes only “through Jesus Christ our Lord” (Romans 6:23). This gift is in contrast to the “death” that is the natural result of sin.

The gift of eternal life comes to those who believe in Jesus Christ, who is Himself “the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25). The fact that this life is “eternal” indicates that it is perpetual life—it goes on and on and on, with no end.

It is a mistake, however, to view eternal life as simply an unending progression of years. A common New Testament word for “eternal” is aiónios, which carries the idea of quality as well as quantity. In fact, eternal life is not really associated with “years” at all, as it is independent of time. Eternal life can function outside of and beyond time, as well as within time.

For this reason, eternal life can be thought of as something that Christians experience now. Believers don’t have to “wait” for eternal life, because it’s not something that starts when they die. Rather, eternal life begins the moment a person exercises faith in Christ. It is our current possession. John 3:36 says, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.” Note that the believer “has” (present tense) this life (the verb is present tense in the Greek, too). We find similar present-tense constructions in John 5:24 and John 6:47. The focus of eternal life is not on our future, but on our current standing in Christ.

The Bible inextricably links eternal life with the Person of Jesus Christ. John 17:3 is an important passage in this regard, as Jesus prays, “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Here, Jesus equates “eternal life” with a knowledge of God and of the Son. There is no knowledge of God without the Son, for it is through the Son that the Father reveals Himself to the elect (John 17:6; 14:9).

This life-giving knowledge of the Father and the Son is a true, personal knowledge, not just an academic awareness.

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DavidPT said:

Once again, as to numbers, only meaning when they are followed by years.

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DavidPT said:

Exodus 38:26 A bekah for every man, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.

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We'd have to exclude this as an example as it isn't about years (as per your rule).

DavidPT said:

Leviticus 27:5 And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old

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I believe that small numbers, in the Bible, are definitely meant to be taken literally.

DavidPT said:

Numbers 32:13 And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.

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Again - literally, but also "40" typically means a time of transition/change (as in one generation to the next).

DavidPT said:

Joshua 14:7 Forty years old was I when Moses the servant of the LORD sent me from Kadeshbarnea to espy out the land; and I brought him word again as it was in mine heart.

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Same thing - it's the number 40.

DavidPT said:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

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Same - this is a smaller number, literal.

DavidPT said:

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

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I believe this is also a literal number.

The fact is - there just isn't enough evidence to support the idea that "thousand" - a round number - is to be taken literally. There isn't any other place in the OT that we can look to in order to see that pattern (that I can think of - nor have you shown a pattern).

We can - however - see that "thousand" DOES point back to Daniel 7:9-28, where the significance (I believe) that's being pointed out is that is when the "Ancient of Days" takes His seat and reigns and the Son of Man is given dominion.

DavidPT said:

As to that, I was merely trying to make more than one point at the same time. My inability to adequetely express myself in writing, is likely the cause of anyone misunderstanding me. IOW I knew exactly what I meant and the points I was trying to express.

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The ONLY example that I can see that's clear about whether or not the number "thousand" is literal and cardinal or symbolic is Psalm 105:8 - but you dismiss it on the basis that it doesn't include the specific word translated to "years".

But "thousands of generations" isn't the same as "forever" in literal years (but it DOES follow the pattern that makes sense to me - that the number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. ... Many early Church fathers saw in the number 1,000, “the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life.”):

mkgal1 said:

Here are a few passages that I've found that use the number "1000". Does it make sense to you that these mean a cardinal/literal number instead of a symbolic number? Once there're 1001 generations - His covenant would expire? Psalm 105 specifically suggests this is NOT literal:


Deuteronomy 7:9 (KJV) – “…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;”

1 Chronicles 16:15 (KJV) – “Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;”

Psalms 105:8 (KJV) – “He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.”

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When we study scripture we will find that God often uses certain number relationships to signify things. For example the number 3 for the purpose or will of God, as in the 3 times Christ prayed, the 3 times the sheet with unclean animals was let down and God told Peter to kill and eat, the 3 times Paul sought the Lord that the thorn in the flesh would be removed from him, the 3 times God came seeking fruit on the fig tree, or the 3 days till the Temple was raised up, etc., etc. Likewise, the number 12 representing the congregation, as in the 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 Apostles, the 12 gates of the city, etc., or the number 7 and it's multiples, 70, 700, 7000 as the "Totality" of whatever is in view. And in this same way the number 10, 100, and 1,000 etc. is likewise used in a spiritual sense to signifies the fullness of whatever is being spoken about.

As an example, as you might say to your wife, "I'll love you for a thousand years". You're not literally putting a number on the time, rather, you're expressing the "fullness" of your Love for her. The 1,000 is a symbolic length of time to indicate you'll love her from now till the fullness of time. Whatever that time may literally be, whether it be 10 years, 30 years, 63 years, or as long as you live, whatever it may be is symbolized by the use of the term a thousand years! Get it? And God uses this number in that way in scripture with Satan in Bottomless Pit "as long as" His church is being built first before he can be loosed. We can see in the Psalms where the Lord God uses it to signify the fullness of hills:

Psalms 50:10-11

• "For Every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a Thousand hills.
• I know All the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine."

Is that to illustrate a literal number of hills hold his cattle? Does that mean that the cattle upon 1,001st or 1,253th hills are not His? No! And so quite obviously the number thousand here is not a number to be understood literally or something we count with our calendar! It's a number that God used here to illustrate the fullness. When we read the verse carefully we see "every" beast of the forest is His. Consider what God is doing here. All the cattle are His! God is using the term 1000 to show us this. But we have to have our eyes open to see it. Nothing is in the Bible by accident. The 1,000 cattle indicates the fullness of cattle are His. All of them are the Lord's. Not just those on 1000 hills.

Therefore, the thousand years in Revelation 20 could mean the fullness of Satan in bottomless pit whether the building of the church took Christ 750 years or 2,011 years. We do not know when Satan will be loosened from bottomless pit BECAUSE we will NEVER know when the last Elect God intended to seal has finally sealed before God allow Satan to come out of the pit.

In fact, I personally believe that Satan is already out and is busy bringing false prophets and christs into the churches all over the world to deceive many as of this writing. These false prophets and christs in our day do not surrender to the authority of scripture. Of course, in word, many will claim they do, but in practice and practical application, no. The majority of professing Christians and Theologians give lip service to the authority of scripture, then they attempt to move heaven and earth to re-interpret it to mean the very opposite of what is plainly written... to appease the audience or for the purpose of church growth. For example...Homosexuality, Women Pastors, Divorce and Remarriage, Predestination, Speaking in Languages, correction in Raising Children, Modesty in Dress, $$ Propersity Gospel, Charity, Evangelism, politics, "Your Best Life Now" motivational speakings, and on and on. The "REAL" reason we have so many diverse doctrines in the church is NOT because the Bible is so confusing and complicated that few can be sure which doctrine is actually true--the reason is because people choose to believe whatever they want and ignore the parts they don't want to hear or believe. This is Satan's MO in the Church!