God Qualities

awitch said:

So are we not capable of love and mercy on our own?
If we were created by god, does that not sound like a massive failure on his part?

Click to expand...

Not at all, as we are all very capable of making the choice.

Thus now one can understand how the lack of not making that choice, has been warned against in all scriptures.

Regards Tony

gospels said:

God is worthy of honor irrespective of his qualities because He is God, the sovereign authority.

Click to expand...

And this is why Authoritarianism is the mindset that makes gulags, death camps and ethnic cleansings possible.
As much as I complained about the limited usefulness of the good/evil-dichotomy, this way of thinking probably comes closest to what I would consider genuinely sinister.

awitch said:

But you said all that all good comes from god and all that is not good doesn't. Clearly and rightfully so, I can tell you don't see the killing of all children as good. But if that was truly an edict from a true god, then it must necessarily be good.

I'm not saying that any god would say such a thing, this is all just a thought experiment.

Click to expand...

The standard for God is God's chosen Messengers, no other person speaks from God.

Thus we have Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus the Christ, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

All those Messengers have protected Children. The age of maturity is when we can accept we are responsible for the choices we have been given.

Regards Tony

Jane_the_Bane said:

And this is why Authoritarianism is the mindset that makes gulags, death camps and ethnic cleansings possible.
As much as I complained about the limited usefulness of the good/evil-dichotomy, this way of thinking probably comes closest to what I would consider genuinely sinister.

Click to expand...

It does proves man perfers their own way over what God has commanded, but then say it was from God.

Regards Tony

awitch said:

Would it make more sense to ask what qualities would belong to a god that is generally worthy of being honored?

Click to expand...

A deity as an omnimax entity would have little need or want of our adulation, and we in turn would have little to gain from such protestations. Even provided that it was benevolent towards us and interested in our individual well-being, it would not require either praise or acknowledgment. (That's the problem with religions which postulate such an entity: in the end, they're puffing our species up with an importance that we simply do not possess in the larger scale of things. So either their concept of deity becomes WAYYYY smaller than it's supposed to be, or else mankind's ego is inflated to cosmic proportions.)
I would still be interested in learning more about such a vast, all-encompassing being, even if it boggled my mind.

Relatable gods would require some semblance to human thoughts and motivations.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The standard for God is God's chosen Messengers, no other person speaks from God.

Thus we have Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus the Christ, Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Click to expand...

It's all about perspective. There are those of us for whom the very essence of Nature speaks from God. And where every life form is the Word of God.

Jane_the_Bane said:

A deity as an omnimax entity would have little need or want of our adulation, and we in turn would have little to gain from such protestations. Even provided that it was benevolent towards us and interested in our individual well-being, it would not require either praise or acknowledgment. (That's the problem with religions which postulate such an entity: in the end, they're puffing our species up with an importance that we simply do not possess in the larger scale of things. So either their concept of deity becomes WAYYYY smaller than it's supposed to be, or else mankind's ego is inflated to cosmic proportions.)
I would still be interested in learning more about such a vast, all-encompassing being, even if it boggled my mind.

Relatable gods would require some semblance to human thoughts and motivations.

Click to expand...

How invested in us could an omnimax being actually be? I'm not sure i could come up with an analogy about how small we would be if such a being existed.

dlamberth said:

It's all about perspective. There are those of us for whom the very essence of Nature speaks from God. And where every life form is the Word of God.

Click to expand...

I can agree, but I would also see that all that needs a perspective, as to understand how it is talking to us. I see the essence of creation comes unto being through the Word, thus we must know what is being said.

I see that Word is Gods Messengers, thus if we want to undersand all of this, it is to them we must look.

Much like knowing all life exists because of the relationship between and the proximity of Sun to the earth, which is in a perfect balance for life to exist.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

It would not be God talking, one would need to seek help.

Click to expand...

Don't forget the story of the "binding of Isaac" where God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. An angel told Abraham to stop before Isaac was killed, but Abraham didn't know that would be the outcome.

cloudyday2 said:

Don't forget the story of the "binding of Isaac" where God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. An angel told Abraham to stop before Isaac was killed, but Abraham didn't know that would be the outcome.

Click to expand...

The story is about submission to God, it had deeper meaning. In other writings (Quran & Baha'i) this station is also given to Ishmael.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

The story is about submission to God, it had deeper meaning. In other writings (Quran & Baha'i) this station is also given to Ishmael.

Click to expand...

Abraham had a close relationship with God. For the "binding of Isaac" to be a true act of submission, Abraham had to believe that there was at least some small chance that God meant for the sacrifice to happen. That proves that it is not outside God's character to ask a parent to kill his/her children. Abraham believed it was a possibility.

The sin of Adam and Eve was to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Maybe that means that good and evil cannot be judged by humans.

When I look at the world I see gray rather than black and white (of course I need to get a new pair of glasses LOL)

cloudyday2 said:

Abraham had a close relationship with God. For the "binding of Isaac" to be a true act of submission, Abraham had to believe that there was at least some small chance that God meant for the sacrifice to happen. That proves that it is not outside God's character to ask a parent to kill his/her children. Abraham believed it was a possibility.

Click to expand...

I see It was lesson of obedience from Gods chosen Messenger told in Metephor.

I alao see there is a vast different between God guiding His Messenger to impart spiritual wisdom unto men and delusional men thinking God has spoken to them to commit an act of murder.

A recent lesson on sacrifice was that of the time the Bab was executed in 1853 (Tommorow is the 166th Anniversery). There were 3 disciples that shared the Bab's cell prior to the execution. The Bab made an offer and aked if one if those Disciples would put him to death, as it was His preference to die at the hand of a friend.

One Disciple excepted the request and the Bab gave him the honour of being Martyred with Him, which he was.

Therin lays the lesson of submission and sacrifice.

Regards Tony

awitch said:

Was it a test of faith?

Click to expand...

I see it as a metephor that can aid us to undestand submission and sacrafice.

The sacrafice of Christ and of the Bab are likewise events and stories we can learn by.

In more recent times, the Sacrifice of the Son of Baha'u'llah Mirza Mihdi and the power that released, is another great meditation.

Mírzá Mihdí - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

cloudyday2 said:

Abraham had a close relationship with God. For the "binding of Isaac" to be a true act of submission, Abraham had to believe that there was at least some small chance that God meant for the sacrifice to happen. That proves that it is not outside God's character to ask a parent to kill his/her children. Abraham believed it was a possibility.

Click to expand...

To me the story of the sacrifice of Abraham's son was offered at a time when human sacrifice was not uncommon. In the case of Abraham it was never carried out as there was a Divine intervention. But consider the Qur'anic version of the story:

The Qur'an also refers to the sacrifice of Abraham..and it is a different account from that mentioned in the Bible..It's found in Surih As-Saffat 37:100-105. In this case after Abraham relates a vision He had to His son they concurrently agree...

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
37:103

So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

The above is a translation by A. Yusuf Ali ... a widely read translation.

Now consider the Genesis account...in chapter 22

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

3 Early the next morning Abraham got up and loaded his donkey. He took with him two of his servants and his son Isaac. When he had cut enough wood for the burnt offering, he set out for the place God had told him about. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, “Stay here with the donkey while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then we will come back to you.”

6 Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, 7 Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, “Father?”

“Yes, my son?” Abraham replied.

“The fire and wood are here,” Isaac said, “but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?”

8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together.

Two things are fairly clear from the above verses.. "Take your son your only son whom you love - Isaac-.." Ishmael was the first child of Abraham by several years...before Isaac was born. There's an inconsistency there you'll note.

The other issue is that in the Genesis account the child is unaware of what is to occur..that is, his being sacrificed... while the Qur'an indicates a concurrence between Abraham and His son.

When I was on pilgrimage to the Holy Land I toured the prison fortress of Akka and went to the site of the death of Mirza Mihdi. It was 1870 and the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire had ordered the imprisonment in Akka.

Mírzá Mihdí's dying supplication to his grieving Father was that his life might be accepted as a ransom for those who were prevented from attaining the presence of their Beloved:
Bahá’u’lláh promised Mírzá Mihdí that God could heal him completely. He had only to ask.
“What do you wish?” Bahá’u’lláh said gently to His son. “Tell Me.”
Despite his own pain, Mírzá Mihdí thought of all the Bahá’ís who longed to see their Lord. As he looked into his father’s loving face, the pure-hearted Mírzá Mihdí did not ask for his own healing. “I wish the people of Bahá to be able to attain Your presence, replied Mírzá Mihdí. Bahá’u’lláh accepted His beloved son’s final request. “And so it shall be,” He said, “God will grant your wish.” [2]

The Great Sacrifice of the Purest Branch
The Manifestations of God have all sacrificed comfortable lives for the benefit of the advancement of humanity.

awitch said:

Do you think that without an explicit indication that it's a metaphor, the writers run a risk of putting off seekers?

Click to expand...

I see it is all in the way we choose to look at life. If we are spiritual beings, what is it to be spiritual?

This world matrix is the perfect environment to acheive that aim.

I see it is our own actions and thoughts that keep us from looking at the bigger picture.

Regards Tony

G-d gave a great gift that is also a great curse. It’s called free will. He also gave us instructions on being righteous. Because of free will each individual has the ability to choose good or evil behavior. It is humans who can be good or evil.