Second coming not on time?

ewq1938

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Let me suggest you check something out for yourself: See if you can find the phrase "Second Coming" anywhere in the Bible.


I have found it. Do you not believe Christ is coming a second time?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Appearing the second time is the same meaning as second coming so yes it's scriptural.
Sure, if the context of the coming of the Lord is a one time end of the world as we know it scenario. Which is what the "second coming," a doctrine of men is.
But the coming of the Lord, the day of the Lord is not presented as an end of the world as we know it scenario in the Bible. But rather as prophecy about the end of nations and era's in judgments and the fulfillment of promise. When you ignore the dates the Bible gives about its own prophecies and who the prophecies are directed at. Then your left with these worldly prognostications of the end of the world. Just like Mohammad, David Korash, Jim Jones. Joseph Smith etc etc. That is the extreme yes. But the same spirit.

The prophecies about the end of the old covenant age and the destruction of Jerusalem were prophecies about the end of the old covenant age and the destruction of Jerusalem no more no less. Just like the prophecies about the end of the age of the four gentile empires are prophecies about the age of the four gentile empires no more no less. Just like the prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem and the surrounding nations at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar are prophecies about the destruction of those nations at that time period. The great error of being ignorant of the times and seasons of Bible prophecy is that you are unable to recognize the 100+ chapters of prophecy about this present age that was to come after the age of those four gentile empires. Prophecies about this free world that exists because of the influnce of the Gospel, the saints, the Bible and God's invisible government. That is where the big error is, in robbing the saints of a scriptural visor for the future. To keep them from developing in such a way as to overcome the evils of their day.
How The Nations Are Blessed
HTNABpic.jpg
 
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ewq1938

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Sure, if the context of the coming of the Lord is a one time end of the world as we know it scenario. Which is what the "second coming," a doctrine of men is.


The second coming simply means the second time Jesus physically returns to the Earth. The first was his incarnation, the second will be at the 7th trump.

The details of what one think ls happens at the second coming is debatable but not that there is a second coming of Jesus.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Yes that's why I'm confused, because I also believe he came again to the disciples. But there is also in revelation when all shall see him: Revelation 1:7

"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen.

So I think multiple things are described?
Good question: Here is something from one of those articles I linked.
What are the clouds of heaven Jesus refers to?
There are two types of clouds Jesus could be referring to in this statement. The first is the obvious. In exactly the same manner this language was used to describe days of judgment where the Lord came in the Old Testament. Days of the Lord that that proceeded this prophecy about end of the Old covenant age. Literal clouds in the sky were used in a descriptive manner about those days and this one. This first one is from Zephaniah, approximately 638 BC. The day of the Lord being prophesied here is about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon destroying all the nations around Judea and razing Jerusalem to the ground.
Zephaniah 1: 14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hastens greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. 15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of devastation and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
A prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon destroying Egypt.
Isaiah 19:1The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rides upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom. 3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards. 4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, says the Lord, the LORD of hosts.

Joel's prophecy about 835 BC is also about Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon. Or it could also be viewed as a prophecy about the entire age of the four Gentile empires. Jerusalem was completely destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. Later rebuilt in very troubling times. Then completely destroyed by the Romans.
Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. .... 2:1 1 Blow you the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD comes, for it is near at hand; 2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains: a great people and a strong; there has not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
Same thing with Ezekiel, a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar's destruction of the nations around Judea.
Ezekiel 30: 1. The word of the Lord came again to me, saying, 2. Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus says the Lord God; Wail, Alas the day! 3. For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. 4. And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down. 5. Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword....10. Thus says the Lord God; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. 11. He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain.

So one can see in those scriptures that the language Jesus is using to describe his coming and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is the exact same language he used to describe his coming and the destruction of the nations around Judea centuries earlier. The language his prophecy uses of his coming in the NT is not "unique" other than the fact it is talking about the end of the Old Covenant age. Based on the scripture one cannot say it is still to be fulfilled in the future because nothing has ever happened that fits the phraseology being used. Unless of course one is not familiar enough with the Bible to see that the same wording was used in prophecies already recorded as fulfilled in the OT. There is however another type of cloud that could be construed as speaking to his coming and the fulfillment of prophecy about the messiah. The cloud of his power. A manifestation of the Holy Spirit displayed in all the works of power, miracles and healings wrought through the hands and Jesus and his disciple's that preceded the end. To put it another way. The miracles, signs and wonders that accompanied the appearing of the Messiah were part of the fulfillment of the great body of prophecy concerning the end the end of the Old Covenant Age.

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: 22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
Exodus 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
Leviticus: 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the veil before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
II Chronicles 5:1 Thus all the work that Solomon made for the house of the LORD was finished: and Solomon brought in all the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the instruments, put he among the treasures of the house of God. 2 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion...... 11 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place: (for all the priests that were present were sanctified, and did not then wait by course: 12 Also the Levites which were the singers, all of them of Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, being arrayed in white linen, having cymbals and psalteries and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them an hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets:) 13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endures for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; 14 So that the priests could not stand (Stand up, they fell , or modern lingo, slain in the spirit.) to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
Ezekiel 10:1 Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the head of the cherubim there appeared over them as it were a sapphire stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne. 2 And he spoke to the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill your hand with coals of fire from between the cherubim, and scatter them over the city. And he went in in my sight. 3 Now the cherubim stood on the right side of the house, when the man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court. 4 Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.
Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus takes Peter, James, and John his brother, and brings them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if you will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear you him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. 8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and on the cloud one sat like to the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Speaking of the salvation in the nations) 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great wine press of the wrath of God. (Speaking of the judgments of the nations.)

You can see in these paragraphs that not only has this been happening since the world began. But it will continue to happen as long as the earth continues. The Lord comes to do certain things. Oversee judgement. Fulfill promise. Bring salvation. The Holy Spirit illustrated as a cloud certainly brings salvation. Just not these worldly end of the world as we know it scenarios.
 
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Josheb

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I have found it.
Then why was it not posted for all to see?

The closest you will come is Hebrews 9:28 where we are told,

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Jesus will come a second time for a salvation that has nothing to do with sin. Presumably the plummeting of the world into depravity prompting God to come rescue the impotent church in a rapture would be a salvation that very much has to do with sin.

There is nothing in scripture that says he won't come a third, fourth, or fifth time; nothing in scripture saying he will come only once more.
Do you not believe Christ is coming a second time?
I believe Jesus has come many time is many ways and will continue to do so until the last day when he comes to gather both the living and the dead, the wheat and the tares and gather them before his throne at which time every knee will bow and every tongue confess the resurrected Jesus the anointed Son of God is Lord of all to the glory of his Father.

Jesus came to Paul on the road to Damascus. He came in judgment over Israel, Jerusalem, and the Levitical priesthood in 70 a.d. He will come again to conclude this history and raise us incorruptible and immortal to eternal life.
 
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ewq1938

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Then why was it not posted for all to see?

It was.


The closest you will come is Hebrews 9:28 where we are told,

"And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him."

Jesus will come a second time for a salvation that has nothing to do with sin.

Has nothing to do with Soccer either but that doesn't matter. It speaks of the second coming.


Presumably the plummeting of the world into depravity prompting God to come rescue the impotent church in a rapture would be a salvation that very much has to do with sin.

There is nothing in scripture that says he won't come a third, fourth, or fifth time; nothing in scripture saying he will come only once more.

That's wrong. Scripture only gives us one more coming of Christ. There isn't more as you claim.

Jesus came to Paul on the road to Damascus.

The two comings are physical comings. Jesus did not physically meet Paul.

He came in judgment over Israel, Jerusalem, and the Levitical priesthood in 70 a.d.

No, he did not. The Roman's came in judgment and revenge in Ad70.


He will come again to conclude this history and raise us incorruptible and immortal to eternal life.

That's the second coming.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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The second coming simply means the second time Jesus physically returns to the Earth. The first was his incarnation, the second will be at the 7th trump.

The details of what one think ls happens at the second coming is debatable but not that there is a second coming of Jesus.
The coming of the Lord is not debatable. Placing the word "second" in front of the dozens and dozens of times the Bible says the "coming of the Lord;" is certainly debatable. It makes the times and seasons of Bible prophecy not understandable. What should not be debatable is ONE OF THE TIMES Jesus clearly said he would come, even emphasizing when with that special phrase. "Truly, truly I say to you." THAT shouldn't be debatable; but it is because of a Bible illiterate doctrine of men.
Matthew16: 27. For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28: TRULY I SAY TO YOU. THERE ARE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM.
Mark 8:38 Whoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 9:1 And he said to them. TRULY i SAY TO YOU. THERE BE SOME OF THEM THAT STAND HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY HAVE SEEN THE KINGDOM OF GOD COME WITH POWER.
Luke 9:26 For whoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 BUT I TELL YOU OF A TRUTH. THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE OF DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Here Jesus tells John that he will live long enough to see his coming but tells Peter he will not.
John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John) following...... 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; BUT IF I WILL THAT HE REMAIN TILL I COME, what is that to you?

Then Jesus tells the High Priest and the other religious leaders of Israel that some of them would live long enough to see his coming.
Mark 14:61 ...Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62. And Jesus said, I am: AND YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER AND COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.

Then of course there is Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple and the city of Jerusalem. It is very important to note that the only place in his whole prophecy that he used the emphasis "truly truly I say to you;" to command their attention, and ours, was concerning when this prophecy would come to pass.
Matthew 24:32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is close: 33. So likewise, when you shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34, IN TRUTH IS SAY TO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mark 13:28. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near: 29. So in like manner, when you shall see these things come to pass, know that it is close, even at the doors. 30. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU, THAT THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE DONE. 31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32. But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Luke 21:29. And he spoke to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30. When they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. 31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know that the kingdom of God is close at hand. 32. IN TRUTH I SAY TO YOU. THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED. 33. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

This is all in exact accordance with Daniels prophecy that when the messiah comes the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed. In fact the destruction of the temple and the city was one of the major signs that Jesus was indeed the messiah. Just like his death and resurrection were.
Daniel chapter 9 verses 25-27. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: AND THE PEOPLE OF THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME SHALL DESTROY THE CITY AND THE SANCTUARY, and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolation's are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
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Josheb

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It speaks of the second coming.
No, it speaks of A second coming, not THE second coming.

You were asked a very specific question and the response does not answer the question asked. You didn't pay attention to the details.
That's wrong. Scripture only gives us one more coming of Christ. There isn't more as you claim.
The facts in evidence so far prove otherwise.
The two comings are physical comings. Jesus did not physically meet Paul.
(josh purses lips) Oh! I see you are adding "physical" to the claims you are asserting. Do please quote the verse that states "Jesus will come a second time and only a second time and his coming will be physical."

Do please cite that verse now.
No, he did not. The Roman's came in judgment and revenge in Ad70.
lol!

Matthew 23:34-36 (NASB)
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation."[/I]


Matthew 24:32-41 (NASB)
"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

Luke 21:10-36 (NASB)
"Then He continued by saying to them, nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name's sake. ...Yet not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives. But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. Then He told them a parable:Behold the fig tree and all the trees; as soon as they put forth leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is now near. So you also, when you see these things happening, recognize that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth. "But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

It's that pesky mention of the days of Noah that betrays your response. In the days of Noah it was the ones that remained behind that God saved. It was they who were saved from God's judgment. It was the ones taken away by the flood waters that died - died in judgment. If these passages were references to the final return at the end of time then there would be no survivors; all would be found before God's Throne of Judgment. The angel is in the details: Jesus looked his audience in the face and told them the things he was saying were coming upon "this generation," not that generation but this one. The Greek conjugation is near demonstrative. It cannot be made to mean anything but the generation of those to whom he was originally talking.

Jesus came in clouds of judgment against Jerusalem using an army of many nations ruled by pagan Romans, much like God had done with Israel previously when he sent Babylon and Assyria.








That's the second coming.[/QUOTE]​
 
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ewq1938

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The coming of the Lord is not debatable. Placing the word "second" in front of the dozens and dozens of times the Bible says the "coming of the Lord;" is certainly debatable.


We aren't talking about that. We are talking about the two physical comings of the Son of God. The second coming is scriptural.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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We aren't talking about that. We are talking about the two physical comings of the Son of God. The second coming is scriptural.
No it is not scriptural. It disagrees with way to much Bible prophecy. Like this about the New Jerusalem:

Rev. 21:9 And there came to me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,...
In Galatians 4 the Apostle declares: 21 Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a female slave, the other by a free woman. 23 But he who was of the female slave was born after the flesh; but he of the free woman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engenders to bondage, which is Hagar. 25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, you barren that bore not; break forth and cry, you that travail not: for the desolate has many more children than she which has an husband.
In this teaching the Apostle is clearly saying that the rituals and rites of the Mosaic law called the first covenant are symbolized by Hagar and the birth of Ishmael. He calls the mother of the children of the first covenant the physical city of Jerusalem. The point of this is that he is quoting from one of the old Testament prophecies about the New Jerusalem to teach this.

Isaiah 54:1 Sing, O barren, you that did not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, you that did not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, said the LORD.

This is the verse Paul quotes. The way he is interpreting it is that the Mosaic Law and the physical city of Jerusalem were the married wife that bore many children. The people of faith though, few and for most of the history of ancient Israel persecuted and murdered by the faithless; these are the children of the desolate woman. However with the coming of the messiah the children of the desolate woman, in this case the children of the Jerusalem from above, the New Jerusalem, would bear more children than the earthly city would. The rest of the prophecy in Isaiah 54 will say more of this.
2 Enlarge the place of your tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of your habitations: spare not, lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes; 3 For you shall break forth on the right hand and on the left; and your descendants shall inherit the Nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
A truly amazing prophecy exhorting the faithful with the promise that lay ahead. That the people of faith soon to be of all nations will grow and expand. So much so that it will be said the descendant of Abraham, the Messiah, through them will inherit the nations. That the fruit of this will be prosperous civilizations. (The desolate cities will be inhabited.)
4 Fear not; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be you confounded; for you shall not be put to shame: for you shall forget the shame of your youth, and shall not remember the reproach of your widowhood any more. 5 For your Maker is your husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and your Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD has called you as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when you were refused, said your God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken you; but with great mercies will I gather you. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on you, said the LORD your Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah to me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with you, nor rebuke you. 10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, said the LORD that has mercy on you.
Here are more references to the bride of Christ. The shame and the reproach of her youth and being forsaken is a reference to the tribulations the believers in ancient Israel faced at the hands of the Gentiles because of the wickedness of the majority of its citizens and its leaders. Due to this they were not recipients of any of the earthly promises of God made to Abraham and in many other places in the scripture. It seemed as if they were forsaken by God and left to the whims of the wicked. It mattered not how they lived their lives before the Lord. They reaped whatever the despots who ran the world sowed. This certainly did not change in New Testament times and for many a century beyond that. Yet in the next verses we have a promise of a day when that would not be so.
11 O you afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay your stones with fair colors, and lay your foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make your windows of agates, and your gates of carbuncles, and all your borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all your children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of your children. 14 In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression; for you shall not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near you. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whoever shall gather together against you shall fall for your sake. 16 Behold, I have created the smith that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. 17 No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, said the LORD.
The first few verses unmistakably use the same type of illustrations as the New Jerusalem in Revelation. Verse 14 clearly states that the way these children of the heavenly city will be established in the earth is because of righteousness. That the terror and the oppression their ancestors lived under and those peoples in the nations who do not know righteousness are subjugated to will not be their story, their testimony. Verse 15 points out that these promises will come to pass in a world where evil exists because the wicked seek to conquer the people of faith. It simply shows that unlike the ancient world where the wicked reigned in perpetuity. In this one with the Lords help, the righteous will come out on top.

It must be pointed out that these specific promises of freedom from oppression. terror and fear itself. Promises that say it will not come near to you have been fulfilled in the lives of many generations of believers in North America and some nations in Northern Europe. These promises were directly fulfilled because very significant minorities and sometimes even small majorities of believers of the population of a nation; plus significant minorities of non believers in those nations adopted the righteousness of Biblical principle to guide their private and national affairs. All this came about when the Bible started to get into the hands of common men in their own languages starting right after the Roman empire fell in 1453 AD. The history of this also shows the path forward. Preaching the Gospel with power, and the putting of the Scripture in the hands of whoever wants them are the foundation. Understanding that those who are pioneers in this effort where the Gospel is relatively new typically face cruel persecutions. This history shows that national and international revivals are a necessity. It also shows that when the time is right based on the righteousness of the people through that Gospel that wars may be necessary. Certainly political ones but at times shooting wars. It is clear by looking at this history that limited and good government that administers justice by physical force is ordained by God and is to be established and maintained by righteous peoples; that this must be fought for and continuously watched over through faith in the promises of Gods Word. It also shows that the wicked will directly attack the righteousness of God, Gods saints and the scripture in an effort to make the people immoral and therefore easily to manipulate. This in their quest to rule over the nations. Jesus's parables about the Kingdom of God that was prophesied to fill the world goes over this process in very enlightening detail. The article about them is a must read for whoever really wants to understand the nature of the Government of God and his plans for the earth. Here is the Link: The Parables of the Government of God.
 
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ewq1938

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No it is not scriptural. It disagrees with way to much Bible prophecy.


Your argument is against the scriptures themselves. I have already proven it's scriptural. The majority of the Christian church has believed in this due to scripture.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a second time and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Your argument is against the scriptures themselves. I have already proven it's scriptural. The majority of the Christian church has believed in this due to scripture.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The second coming means a second physical arrival of Jesus Christ. Appearing a second time and "coming again" both support this second physical arrival of Jesus Christ.
Nah, you have not proven anything. Your just sticking those verses into the context of your dogma that disagrees with so much prophecy. Like this. You can't have these verses coming to pass before our eyes and your dark vision, about the world growing worse and worse before a "second coming" of Jesus.

Isaiah 60 (AKJV) 1 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you. Two scriptures explain these verses perfectly. Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like to a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;.....23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. None of these illustrations are by accident, as the reader will hopefully see as it unfolds.

3 And the Nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to you: your sons shall come from far, and your daughters shall be nursed at your side. 5 Then you shall see, and flow together, and your heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted to you, the wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.
There are a couple of items in these verses. First are the references to the children of this heavenly city, the bride of Christ. Second, that these children are from all nations. That is what the illustration of the "sea" being converted to it is. the sea is an illustration of the nations. Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. While the Isaiah says the sea, the nations, will be converted to the New Jerusalem. Revelation says their will be no more sea. The meaning is very simple. That peoples and nations many a time opposed to one another based on their heritage will become one in Christ, hence no more sea. In this city all are brothers and sisters as the NT says over and over. This can also be seen in the ideal of America, because of its founding on Biblical principle. Where people of all nations become one people. That was it's design anyway. You can see the spirit of anti-Christ at work in it trying to thwart that from happening. For political advantage always purposely causing division among its people based on race and class. Another amazing thing is the prophecy of the enormity of this process. That the believers hearts will flow together. There is nothing like seeing Christians of all denominations working together because so many are being saved. Differences get put aside because the work is so great and so many are coming to Christ that there isn't time to fight among themselves. Their hearts truly fear and are enlarged by what they see happening. Look at some numbers. Did you know that for the last decade or two over 100,000 people a day are coming to Christ? If the numbers were to keep extrapolating the way they have been in a few decades all the people in the world would have accepted Jesus in 50 years. Now obviously it is not going to play out that way and besides the work is so much greater than just introducing people to Jesus. That doesn't negate the radical phenomena of hundreds of millions of people coming to Christ though. Lets look at this in another way though. Lets say there are now 600 million real believers world wide. (There are over two billion that call themselves Christians now.) If each of the 600 million truly won two people to Christ in a ten year period. Then those 600 million truly won two more and so on. In a mere generation or so the majority of people on the earth would be true believers. children of the heavenly city. Now think of the fruit that would bear in the nations if they embraced all their duties to raise their children and turn their nations toward Biblical principle. That may be overly optimistic but it is definitely scripture based vision for the future. Then there is the wealth of the nations mentioned at the end of the verse. The middle class of these nations like the USA that were founded on Biblical principle have unimaginable wealth compared to the peoples of the nations who don't yet have the Gospel. In fact what the 1% super wealthy have is a pittance in comparison. Another reason why those animated by the spirit of anti Christ seek to impose laws and policies to strip the middle class of all that wealth. They want to get their hands on it.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover you, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you: they shall come up with acceptance on my altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the LORD your God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he has glorified you.
Animals as well as trees are used often used as illustrations of the different nations and peoples in the illustrative language of Bible prophecy. That is why you'll see scriptures like this one.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatted calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. They make for nice Sunday school pictures of heaven but that is just not what they as prophecies are predicting. Rather they predict what we have been seeing to varying degree's. Representative republics who's morality is based in scripture are not fighting wars with one another. People's who have accepted Christ treating other races and nationalities who have as kin.

10 And the sons of strangers shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you: for in my wrath I smote you, but in my favor have I had mercy on you. We have the same scenario as in Isaiah 54 here. The sufferings of the people of faith at the hands of the wicked for millennia verses the time of favor, prophesied to come. When the righteousness of the saints bears fruit in the nations bringing circumstances where the promises of God made to the saints in time past can come to fruition. Plus very importantly. The descendants of the nations are prophesied to build the walls of this "city." verses ancient Israel or those who went out to preach the Gospel first. Instead the prophets of old and the apostles laid the foundation, are the foundation, for this heavenly city. Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. Corresponds to Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted. This is the verse keyed to the title of the article. Outside of the subject matter at hand and as opposed to the erroneous teachings that call the New Jerusalem a physical city from heaven in an imaginary age when there is no evil on the earth. The context of the scripture as a whole says there are nations who do not serve the New Jerusalem. Most in this day and age still do not and many that have are in danger turning away from their service. The main reason for this in an age where millions are coming to Christ is because Christians they have lost their vision of the future in favor of pop culture end times teachings. Teachings that claim evil will prevail in the earths future until a time they believe that Jesus will set up a visible\physical kingdom on earth.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Nah, you have not proven anything. Your just sticking those verses into the context of your dogma that disagrees with so much prophecy. Like this. You can't have these verses coming to pass before our eyes and your dark vision, about the world growing worse and worse before a "second coming" of Jesus.

Isaiah 60 (AKJV) 1 Arise, shine; for your light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen on you. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise on you, and his glory shall be seen on you. Two scriptures explain these verses perfectly. Matthew 5:14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like to a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;.....23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. None of these illustrations are by accident, as the reader will hopefully see as it unfolds.

3 And the Nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to you: your sons shall come from far, and your daughters shall be nursed at your side. 5 Then you shall see, and flow together, and your heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted to you, the wealth of the Gentiles shall come to you.
There are a couple of items in these verses. First are the references to the children of this heavenly city, the bride of Christ. Second, that these children are from all nations. That is what the illustration of the "sea" being converted to it is. the sea is an illustration of the nations. Rev. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. While the Isaiah says the sea, the nations, will be converted to the New Jerusalem. Revelation says their will be no more sea. The meaning is very simple. That peoples and nations many a time opposed to one another based on their heritage will become one in Christ, hence no more sea. In this city all are brothers and sisters as the NT says over and over. This can also be seen in the ideal of America, because of its founding on Biblical principle. Where people of all nations become one people. That was it's design anyway. You can see the spirit of anti-Christ at work in it trying to thwart that from happening. For political advantage always purposely causing division among its people based on race and class. Another amazing thing is the prophecy of the enormity of this process. That the believers hearts will flow together. There is nothing like seeing Christians of all denominations working together because so many are being saved. Differences get put aside because the work is so great and so many are coming to Christ that there isn't time to fight among themselves. Their hearts truly fear and are enlarged by what they see happening. Look at some numbers. Did you know that for the last decade or two over 100,000 people a day are coming to Christ? If the numbers were to keep extrapolating the way they have been in a few decades all the people in the world would have accepted Jesus in 50 years. Now obviously it is not going to play out that way and besides the work is so much greater than just introducing people to Jesus. That doesn't negate the radical phenomena of hundreds of millions of people coming to Christ though. Lets look at this in another way though. Lets say there are now 600 million real believers world wide. (There are over two billion that call themselves Christians now.) If each of the 600 million truly won two people to Christ in a ten year period. Then those 600 million truly won two more and so on. In a mere generation or so the majority of people on the earth would be true believers. children of the heavenly city. Now think of the fruit that would bear in the nations if they embraced all their duties to raise their children and turn their nations toward Biblical principle. That may be overly optimistic but it is definitely scripture based vision for the future. Then there is the wealth of the nations mentioned at the end of the verse. The middle class of these nations like the USA that were founded on Biblical principle have unimaginable wealth compared to the peoples of the nations who don't yet have the Gospel. In fact what the 1% super wealthy have is a pittance in comparison. Another reason why those animated by the spirit of anti Christ seek to impose laws and policies to strip the middle class of all that wealth. They want to get their hands on it.
6 The multitude of camels shall cover you, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall show forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together to you, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you: they shall come up with acceptance on my altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, to the name of the LORD your God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he has glorified you.
Animals as well as trees are used often used as illustrations of the different nations and peoples in the illustrative language of Bible prophecy. That is why you'll see scriptures like this one.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatted calf together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. They make for nice Sunday school pictures of heaven but that is just not what they as prophecies are predicting. Rather they predict what we have been seeing to varying degree's. Representative republics who's morality is based in scripture are not fighting wars with one another. People's who have accepted Christ treating other races and nationalities who have as kin.

10 And the sons of strangers shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you: for in my wrath I smote you, but in my favor have I had mercy on you. We have the same scenario as in Isaiah 54 here. The sufferings of the people of faith at the hands of the wicked for millennia verses the time of favor, prophesied to come. When the righteousness of the saints bears fruit in the nations bringing circumstances where the promises of God made to the saints in time past can come to fruition. Plus very importantly. The descendants of the nations are prophesied to build the walls of this "city." verses ancient Israel or those who went out to preach the Gospel first. Instead the prophets of old and the apostles laid the foundation, are the foundation, for this heavenly city. Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

11 Therefore your gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring to you the wealth of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. Corresponds to Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it

12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted. This is the verse keyed to the title of the article. Outside of the subject matter at hand and as opposed to the erroneous teachings that call the New Jerusalem a physical city from heaven in an imaginary age when there is no evil on the earth. The context of the scripture as a whole says there are nations who do not serve the New Jerusalem. Most in this day and age still do not and many that have are in danger turning away from their service. The main reason for this in an age where millions are coming to Christ is because Christians they have lost their vision of the future in favor of pop culture end times teachings. Teachings that claim evil will prevail in the earths future until a time they believe that Jesus will set up a visible\physical kingdom on earth.
Isaiah 60 continued.

13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. This predicts that the temple of the Lord will be built, beautified by the people of all nations as that is what trees illustrate. Ephesians 2: 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are built together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. It also explains why there is no temple in this heavenly city. Because God's people are his temple. Rev. 21:3...Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God....22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it

14 The sons also of them that afflicted you shall come bending to you; and all they that despised you shall bow themselves down at the soles of your feet; and they shall call you; The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. The obvious here is this city has feet. Meaning, the New Jerusalem illustrates Gods saints and not a physical city. It is the mother of the saints in the sense that it is the faith of the saints of old gave birth to the children of faith of all nations. The other important part of these verses is the fact that it is the descendants of those who afflicted the saints that bow down to this heavenly city and not those who oppressed the saints. This can not only be seen as the obvious history of the world but also a scenario that repeats it self as the Gospel goes forth to new lands. The pioneers are viscously persecuted and murdered. The new saints live in fear of their lives as they spread the good Word. It is not until circumstances are changed, usually by a good portion of the population coming under the influence of the Gospel and the Word until one can see the descendants of the persecutors bowing themselves down before the heavenly city.

15 Whereas you has been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through you, I will make you an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Once more, like Isaiah 54 a reference to the suffering of the saints living under the oppressions of the despotisms and idolatry of the ancient world verses the promise of what was to come. How wonderful it is indeed to live in a nation were the opportunity exists to have the earthly promises of God fulfilled in your life. A nation that many millions built with their blood and treasure. A nation that Christ died for. How dis-honorable it is to see believers totally forsake their duties to maintain that nation because they have accepted false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teachings designed to rob them of their vision thus allowing the wicked to rule those nation.

16 You shall also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shall suck the breast of kings: and you shall know that I the LORD am your Savior and your Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make your officers peace, and your exactors righteousness. This is a prophecy of the prosperity of the nations that "serve" the New Jerusalem. Not the prosperity of the ancient world or the world that has not been dramatically influenced by the Gospel. Places where the rulers and their supporters became extremely wealthy by the exploiting the labor of the masses. This is the prosperity of nations who abide by the rule of law based on Biblical principle. Where property rights are protected as God given and therefore the creativity of the human spirit is able to blossom. Where the opportunity to create wealth exists for whoever is willing to overcome the obstacles laid in front of them. The lands where justice as defined in scripture prevails and human government is limited to it its practical capacity.

18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, wasting nor destruction within your borders; but you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise. Keep in mind that these as promises are conditional. As prophecies they have come to pass in some places and will come to pass in others that meet the conditions. Further that these are promises to believers in lands that serve the New Jerusalem and not in lands that do not serve it or war against it. They are promises and prophecies to believers in nations where Christians have overcome the wicked in influencing the culture plus politically. It should also be noted the great peril believers place themselves in when a majority of them have accepted pop culture end times teachings that say this cannot be done; that Bible prophecy says the world will grow more and more evil as time goes on. This, as a false prophecy is basically self fulfilling as it hamstrings the hearts and minds of the very people needed most in bestowing the knowledge needed in a nation to fulfill these wonderful words.

19 The sun shall be no more your light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light to you: but the LORD shall be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory. 20 Your sun shall no more go down; neither shall your moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be your everlasting light, and the days of your mourning shall be ended. Rev. 21-22 quotes these verses. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God gives them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. Or, there are many other NT verses that in meaning correspond to this. John 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life

21 Your people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. Rev. 21 says the same thing. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatsoever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Just as 1st Corinthians 5:21 points out Gods purpose. To turn people from sin to righteousness. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Of course inheriting the land means the whole earth as articulated in many places in the scripture: Mathew 5:55 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. In a time when Gods saints are walking in darkness concerning the times and the seasons of Bible prophecy; this particular verse carries extra importance. The Lord will bring about all of these good things quickly in its time. Not when Jesus came. Not when the Gospel was first preached to the nations or new to a nation today. Not even when kings and emperors claimed Christianity. But..in its time! That time is actually prophesied in the Bible over and over again. However, lets use one more passage about the New Jerusalem to verify exactly what things would be coming to pass "in its time."
 
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Josheb

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It is self proving.
No, it is not and you are copping out.

This is important. I get the feeling you don't want to be a believer who simply believes what he's told from the pulpit. Maybe I have that wrong, but if not then read your Bible. Check everything you hear and read with God's word. If you do then you will find what I have posted is true and correct: the is no mention of "The Second Coming" in the Bible. This is a doctrine formed by faithful and devout men but it is not a doctrine that is held the same way by everyone in the church. Most significantly, there's a huge divide between the way Darbyists and everyone else sees Christ's return.

So when I ask you to look for yourself to find a mention of THE Second Coming and you try to pass off something that doesn't actually state, "The Second Coming," but only "a" coming a second time I and everyone else reading these posts knows you haven't based your views on scripture. Then when you say Jesus didn't come to judge Israel in 70 a.d., the Romans did you've told everyone you're outside the mainstream and pale of orthodoxy because no matter one's eschatological view, everyone understand it was God using Rome to judge Israel. It was a decidedly clueless thing to say.

So let me ask you this: what is your eschatological position? It sounds like you're amil but I don't want to assume that erroneously.
 
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parousia70

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Luke 17 has obviously not happened yet. Wicked evil people are still here, they have not yet been removed.

Removed?
from/to where?

Revelation 22:14-15 testifies that the Wicked will continue to exist on the new earth, just outside the gates of the City:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
 
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parousia70

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The belief all prophesies have all already been fulfilled is called full-preterism. There is a specific board within this board for those who take such a view. I encourage you to go to that board where adherents have liberty to expound upon that view without sanction.
Adherents to that view have that exact liberty in this very thread.

Just an FYI.
 
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parousia70

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. Paul really champions this idea that the resurrection is a physical event

Paul seems to be championing the OPPOSITE idea here:

1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
 
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