Kierkegaard

Halbhh

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I apologise for not replying to this thread again sooner. Thanks for that quote from SK. I cannot say I grasp everything he is saying here, and reading some parts of SK can be a little tortorous for me. But nowhere near as tortorous as I found reading Sartre, or Neitzsche. Sartre left me with an awful sense of something like alienation. Some people read philosophy and they can remain at a distance, either they have a firm philosophy of life of their own, or they simply have learnt to evaluate other people's ideas without embracing those ideas - that not always easy though in reading the existentialists.

I think Kierkegaard re-discovered a neglected aspect of Christianity, the need to walk with Christ moment by moment. Francis Schaeffer agreed that in this respect at least Kierkegaard was correct, but SK also recognised the need for decisive conversion. What I understand is he was deeply critical of the Church in Denmark of his day and the way in which many people considered themselves christian merely from having undergone the rite of baptism. His other bete noire was the Danish Press of his day.

Its been noted, SK had a religious personality, somewhat like the Apostle Paul - "This one thing I do...." As a Lutheran he wished to be a family man, but he seemed find it impossible when it came to the point to go through with marrying Regine Olson, to whom he had been engaged. William Barratt, who wrote one of the best introductions to Existentialism, said this inability to commit to marriage, was due to this religious single-mindedness - SK had sought for something to devote himself to that would give meaning to life.

In regard to his philosophy it may be that he has been misunderstood in some respects - particularly his view of Truth, what truth is. Perhaps this is because people don't actually read Kierkegaard, they just become familiar with a quote or two and never realise they don't actually know what Kierkegaard was meaning. That said from what I have read of him his manner of writing is a little to blame at times also. SK believed we need God as our Teacher to come to know the truth. In this respect he differed a good deal from Plato, who as far as I can understand him thought the truth within us could be drawn out by careful questions.

What SK says in the above paragraph, I think Francis Schaeffer would ask in the following form:

"Do you believe that God exists and that he is a personal God, and that Jesus Christ is God, and that we are not merely talking about the word God, or the idea God, but the Personal-Infinite God Who is there?"

I find it a bit hard to shift gears from reading SK to reading Francis Schaeffer's books, and feel hit with a lot of dissonnance sometimes. I think that the latter did a very good job at articulating Historic Christianity and True Spirituality for modern people all the same.
Having read in that S.K. quote above in #8 from Unscientific Postscript yet again this morning it seemed more clear today than last time (than yesterday), perhaps because I started towards the middle, so I avoided some opaque sentence, but did read this sentence:

"In other words, if Christianity were a doctrine, then the relation to it would not be one of faith, since there is only an intellectual relation to a doctrine."

There's K. sounding more clear. :)
 
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Halbhh

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Bonhoeffer was far more faithful to anything resembling Christianity, and especially anything likely taught by an historical Jesus. I am afraid Kierkegaard is appreciated as much by atheists and non-Christians as by Christians, which should tell you where his philosophy leads.

I tried reading Kiekegaard for Lent last year. It almost wrecked my faith until I realized the fundamental flaw in his approach.

For Bonhoeffer, Christ is present in the neighbor, especially the stranger or the marginalized, not in ones subjective will to faith. It's much more in line with what Jesus actually taught.
When we say Christ is present in the stranger or marginalized, we are trying to help each other to "Love your neighbor as yourself" by opening their eyes to see the other as His, thus in our family, a brother or sister, yes?

When you...welcomed...the least of these you...welcomed...Me.
Matthew 25:40 And the King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.'

That's a main theme in U2's challenging performance of their song American Soul on Saturday Night Live where the stranger/refugee/immigrant is depicted for a moment as the beloved Lady of Guadalupe (the Virgin Mary). To reject the immigrant is equal to rejecting Mary as an immigrant for instance.

(Our Lady of Guadalupe, also known as the Virgin of Guadalupe, is a Catholic title of the Blessed Virgin Mary associated with a Marian apparition and a venerated image enshrined within the Minor Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. Wikipedia)
 
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FireDragon76

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Some taste of his The Moment:

Imagine that a fellow with a loaded pistol in his hands held up a person and said to him:
"I shall shoot you"; or imagine, what is still more terrible, that he said:
"I shall seize you and torture you to death in the most horrible manner if..."

-- now watch, here is the point --

"...if you do not render your life here on earth as profitable and as enjoyable as you can".

Would not that be utterly ridiculous? ... The most terrible blasphemy is the one which "Christianity" is guilty, which is, to transform the God of the Spirit into a ridiculous piece of nonsense.

The tensions Kierkegaard sees in Christianity are overwrought and he sees false dichotomies too often, but I think that is partly due to his Lutheran pietist background.

I think Nietzsche is actually much more interesting and more relevant in many ways. He really zeroes in on the problem with Christianity- it's not-so-secret ethic of resentment.
 
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trophy33

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The tensions Kierkegaard sees in Christianity are overwrought and he sees false dichotomies too often, but I think that is partly due to his Lutheran pietist background.

I think Nietzsche is actually much more interesting and more relevant in many ways. He really zeroes in on the problem with Christianity- it's not-so-secret ethic of resentment.
Kierkegaard sees the real Christianity as radical and full of tension.

When he sees the Christianity in our days, when it is a profitable and honorable thing to be a Christian, the whole paradigm seems to be shifted to an opposite and many verses of the New Testament seem not to have any sense. He calls it "Christendom", a false, theatrical Christianity.
 
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FireDragon76

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Kierkegaard sees the real Christianity as radical and full of tension.

When he sees the Christianity in our days, when it is a profitable and honorable thing to be a Christian, the whole paradigm seems to be shifted to an opposite and many verses of the New Testament seem not to have any sense. He calls it "Christendom", a false, theatrical Christianity.

Kierkegaard did not have access to "real" Christianity unmediated by his culture. His Christianity is his own self-styled religion.

I'm not saying he doesn't have interesting critiques but we cannot read him uncritically.
 
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Halbhh

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Kierkegaard did not have access to "real" Christianity unmediated by his culture. His Christianity is his own self-styled religion.

I'm not saying he doesn't have interesting critiques but we cannot read him uncritically.
Yes, we cannot read any commentary or summary of Christianity uncritically. Including the Book of Concord, etc.

Ideally, we compare any commentary/summary of or about Christianity to the words of Christ.
 
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trophy33

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Kierkegaard did not have access to "real" Christianity unmediated by his culture. His Christianity is his own self-styled religion.

I'm not saying he doesn't have interesting critiques but we cannot read him uncritically.
At least we can say that he lived and talked according to his ideas and got into many troubles because of that.

I would recommend to read at least The Moment.
 
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FireDragon76

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Yes, we cannot read any commentary or summary of Christianity uncritically. Including the Book of Concord, etc.

Ideally, we compare any commentary/summary of or about Christianity to the words of Christ.

We even have to think about that critically, since what we have in the Bible was not actually written by Christ. Most rabbis back then did not actually do much writing, their disciples did the writing. And as we see in the NT, the accounts of Jesus vary in their themes.

Personally, I have confidence in the overall liberal Protestant mainline approach. Jesus was building a community based on internalized moral values rooted in a non-cognitive, relational and embodied approach to life, as opposed to externalize laws and religious rationalizations. Kierkegaard, on the other hand, understands Jesus as purely a divine, mythical savior, through which we can transcend the human condition- such a Jesus rejects everything human, and only accepts people based on their willingness to follow him wholeheartedly. This is false notion of transcendence that is actually alien to what the historical Jesus likely taught.
 
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Halbhh

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We even have to think about that critically, since what we have in the Bible was not actually written by Christ. Most rabbis back then did not actually do much writing, their disciples did the writing. And as we see in the NT, the accounts of Jesus vary in their themes.

Personally, I have confidence in the overall liberal Protestant mainline approach. Jesus was building a community based on internalized moral values rooted in a non-cognitive, relational and embodied approach to life, as opposed to externalize laws and religious rationalizations. Kierkegaard, on the other hand, understands Jesus as purely a divine, mythical savior, through which we can transcend the human condition- such a Jesus rejects everything human, and only accepts people based on their willingness to follow him wholeheartedly. This is false notion of transcendence that is actually alien to what the historical Jesus likely taught.
Those 2 general viewpoints are sorta like parts of a hand. Consider that we are indeed having available to us as believers, as your own Lutheran church will be telling you (and you may hear occasionally in the Sunday readings), unless it's usual, that transcendence of the world called "peace", His peace. Right? These 2 views are not at odds, essentially. A whole hand is a fine thing. Few have everything at first though. Your church will tell you in various ways that we are to follow Him. That's just said in a variety of ways. We don't delete the "love one another", as your own church recently read aloud on a Sunday in the last month or so. If we did we'd no longer be "Lutheran" (or Christian really).
 
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FireDragon76

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Those 2 general viewpoints are sorta like parts of a hand. Consider that we are indeed having available to us as believers, as your own Lutheran church will be telling you (and you may hear occasionally in the Sunday readings), unless it's usual, that transcendence of the world called "peace", His peace. Right? These 2 views are not at odds, essentially. A whole hand is a fine thing. Few have everything at first though. Your church will tell you in various ways that we are to follow Him. That's just said in a variety of ways. We don't delete the "love one another", as your own church recently read aloud on a Sunday in the last month or so. If we did we'd no longer be "Lutheran" (or Christian really).

No, they really aren't the same.

I identify as a Lutheran because that's the church I go to and belong to, but I don't attach a great deal of importance to it anymore.

Most people who think they believe or follow Jesus are merely following a traditional religion about Jesus. They aren't deeply and critically listening to what the Bible says about Jesus. The religiosity we associate with the demanded and expected devotion to Jesus actually detracts from understanding him as an actual person.
 
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Halbhh

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No, they really aren't the same.

I identify as a Lutheran because that's the church I go to and belong to, but I don't attach a great deal of importance to it anymore.

Most people who think they believe or follow Jesus are merely following a traditional religion about Jesus. They aren't deeply and critically listening to what the Bible says about Jesus. The religiosity we associate with the demanded and expected devotion to Jesus actually detracts from understanding him as an actual person.

" Most people who think they believe or follow Jesus are merely following a traditional religion about Jesus" -- I think this is a good paraphrase of Kierkegaard. SK's language is so much like another tongue.
.
 
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FireDragon76

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" Most people who think they believe or follow Jesus are merely following a traditional religion about Jesus" -- I think this is a good paraphrase of Kierkegaard. SK's language is so much like another tongue.
.

Kierkegaard primarily thinks of Jesus in mythic terms of folk pietism, "accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and savior". That's very different from focusing on the Christian community as a suspended space practicing forgiveness and hospitality.
 
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Halbhh

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a suspended space practicing forgiveness and hospitality.
We have a safe place, judging suspended, practicing forgiveness and friendliness, hospitality, because Christ instructs us do do precisely those! And we are able to do so because He saves us, making us new.

See? It's 100% all straight from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that which you value. It's the gospel. :)
 
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FireDragon76

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We have a safe place, judging suspended, practicing forgiveness and friendliness, hospitality, because Christ instructs us do do precisely those! And we are able to do so because He saves us, making us new.

But that's not Kierkegaard's religion.
 
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Halbhh

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But that's not Kierkegaard's religion.
Ok. What did you read of his to reach that conclusion? I've only read some excerpts and summaries.
 
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Ok. What did you read of his to reach that conclusion? I've only read some excerpts and summaries.

His life story is that he walked away from church attendance and refused to receive the sacrament on his deathbed. He was iconclastic. His religion in the end was individualistic and had no room for others.
 
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Gordon Wright

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Kierkegaard opposed the idolatry of churchianity. A mediocre church will get in the way of your relationship with God. God must come first.

He tended to overstate his case quite deliberately, and admitted it. He called this the "corrective." The point is to compensate for a current error by doing the opposite. That's why it's a mistake to take his rhetoric too literally. But it's clear that the church he knew was not good enough in his estimation.

My own approach is to lower my expectations and attend almost anywhere, but refuse to become a member of a church. This doesn't seem to have occurred to K, perhaps because he was fixated on radical discipleship. No one can live in modern society by that standard for long. It just doesn't work.

Nietzsche maintained that humanity cannot be saved, which would make personal religion pointless.
 
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