An Alternative Explanation for Seals 3 and 4 from Revelation

iamlamad said:

Study chapters 4 & 5, without preconceptions. God has given the date for any who can understand.

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If there is any merit to your rendering of Revelation chapters 4 and 5, as I said, I trust the Lord will open my eyes to it and not just mine but the eyes of others as well.

Contenders Edge said:

If the context indicates a date for the opening of the first seal, I trust that the Lord will reveal it to me.

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You believe that you do not know the date because you are waiting for the "Antichrist" to appear to fulfill the first seal, then you are mistaken. The white horse is not the Antichrist. God has already defined who white horse in Scripture, so why don't you try read Revelation 19:11 next time.

TribulationSigns said:

You believe that you do not know the date because you are waiting for the "Antichrist" to appear to fulfill the first seal, then you are mistaken. The white horse is not the Antichrist. God has already defined who white horse in Scripture, so why don't you try read Revelation 19:11 next time.

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I once thought this was Christ at first, which is a common mistake for which one might be forgiven. Both Jesus and this figure appear on white horses, and wear crowns, but are also very notable differences between the two:


1. The rider on the white horse of the first seal has a bow but no arrows giving indication that his method of conquering is not with force. Jesus has a sword with which He kills and takes over the world by force.

2. The rider represented by the first seal wears a single crown, Jesus wears many crowns.

3. A series of cataclysms, martyrdom of saints, and divine judgment follow after the opening of the first seal. Jesus, when He returns, will put an end to all of that.


Why don’t you take some time and compare not just the similarities but also the differences between the two?

Contenders Edge said:

I once thought this was Christ at first, which is a common mistake for which one might be forgiven. Both Jesus and this figure appear on white horses, and wear crowns, but are also very notable differences between the two:

Why don’t you take some time and compare not just the similarities but also the differences between the two?

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Sure I will, but the question is will you receive it?

Biblical precedence or at least biblical warrant is necessary. We can't just suurmise that because there are a lot of evil horses there, the white one is evil too. The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture. Comparing one image of rider with another image of rider. Not comparing the image of a rider with the image of a beast. We have to have consistency throughout. Let's start by comparing the two riders. Does this rider in Revelation chapter six compare favorably to the "figures" of Satan that God inspires in scripture? The answer is No. Do they compare with the "figure" God inspires as representing Christ? The answer is Yes. Let's compare.

Revelation 6:2

• "And I saw, and behold a White Horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Revelation 19:11-12

• "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a White Horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
• His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

They compare favorably. In fact, almost identically right down to His coming for warfare, and the crown symbolizing He rules. The question is, why would anyone (based upon what is written in Revelation 6:2) think that this rider on the white horse is someone different from the rider on the white horse in Revelation nineteen? There certainly is nothing (at all) in Revelation 6:2 that would lead us to believe He is a different rider. So where would we get the idea? ..I submit that it comes from man's own reasoning and teachings, rather than what is actually written there.

First consideration. Satan's strength is NEVER symbolized by the color white. And the horses are the symbol of the rider's strength. When you mount an army (in those days) your strength was measured by your number of horsemen. Horsemen gave you the advantage of strength in war. And colors (like numbers) carry great spiritual significance. White 'unquestionably' symbolizes purity or righteousness. For example, the great white throne, the white stone, the clean white robes given the elect, the white cloud that the son of man sat on, the hair white like wool, etc., etc. And here, the "White" horse is in that very same vein of symbols found in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Horse = Strength of battle
White = Righteousness
Horseman on white horse = He who comes in strength of Righteous for warfare.

= Christ!

Christ judges and makes war in righteousness. This color white is not "incidental" in revelation, it is in harmony with the symbolism in revelation. This is no small matter to be cast aside as insignificant (as some do). Because interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture, and that is "extremely" important. Why would God use white to symbolize the rider coming in righteousness in one book of Revelation, and then assign that color to Satan's horse? He's not coming in the strength of righteousness. It makes no sense. Some say because he is a false prophet, but God doesn't need to assign the color white to a horse to show false prophecy. A White horse doesn't symbolize false prophecy, it symbolizes riding in truth, purity, cleanness, and righteousness. We have our two identifiers. The horseman symbolizing He comes in strength (Job 39:19; Isaiah 31:1; Psalm 33:17; Psalm 147:10) of warfare, and color of the horse being white to symbolize He comes in righteous warfare and judgment. Just as Revelation 19 also so clearly illustrates. And as all of Revelation postulates:

Revelation 16:7

• "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

Christ comes in righteous judgments and the white horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes righteousness, just as Revelation nineteen does! They are synonymous with each other, the very same symbolism. It is inconsistent for us to say that the White Horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes Satan, and then claim the white horse in Revelation chapter nineteen does not. That it switches and now symbolizes Christ. Where is the logic for such an abrupt change? They are both white horses! If there is one thing I have learned in my study of the scriptures, it is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error," and is almost always the vehicle of every wrong interpretation. For example, you can't have the Candlesticks in Revelation 2 symbolize the Church, and then turn around in Revelation chapter 11 and claim the candlesticks now represents two physical men who will come and witness! This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. Consistency is paramount, and God declares that it is in "Righteousness" that this rider on the white horse goes forth to judge and make war. Again, total agreement and harmony with the horse (symbolizing a strength of battle) being white.

In Revelation chapter 19 we see this rider at the END has many crowns (illustrating He is King of Kings and rules over many nations). And in Revelation 6, when the seal is loosed, at the BEGINNING of His kingdom, we see this rider is given a kingdom (symbolized by one crown). Again, total agreement with Christ going forth in righteousness. Christ was crowned king of kings and Lord of lords by his meritorious work and suffering on the cross. He established His kingdom by that suffering and death. ..to this end was He born.

Hebrews 2:9

• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Matthew 27:29

• "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

So mock as they would, the truth is, Jesus was crowned King of the Jews by this meritorious work on the cross. He was given a crown, He did "establish" this kingdom by this work. And so again, we have complete and total harmony with the figure being representative of Christ given a crown, and not Satan. Satan hardly rides forth on the vehicle of righteousness (white horse) that he goes forth "both" conquering (overcoming) and to conquer (overcome). This can only be Christ who rides thusly. He is this warrior crowned King and we are his army on white horses who are in battle in this spiritual warfare with Him.

Revelation 17:14

• "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Revelation 12:11

• "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The symbolism of this warfare which Christ goes forth conquering and to conquer permeates all throughout scripture.

Notice also that He has a bow in Revelation chapter six? Many have postulated that this proves that this is not Christ, because Christ doesn't have a bow in revelation chapter nineteen. You were saying like, "..See Christ has no sword in Revelation chapter 6, so that proves it's not Christ." But this is all a self-serving exegesis. Such interpretations are easily debunked. For example, Christ has hair which is white like wool in Revelation chapter one, but it isn't mentioned in Revelation nineteen. Does that mean that Christ in Revelation chapter one is not Christ in revelation nineteen? Of course not. That would be a nonsensical way of interpreting. True interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture in the light of the "Whole" Bible. Doing that is the only way to come to the real truth. So let's do are the more noble Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things are true. Where else do we see this horseman riding with this bow? Is it an image of Satan or Christ?

Psalms 7:11-13

• "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
• If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his Bow, and made it ready.
• He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors."

Here is the Lord pictured as with His bow and His arrows and coming in judgment (Revelation 6), and His whet sword (Revelation 19). These symbolisms in Revelation are not untraditional teaching, it is a teaching as old as the scriptures themselves. Interpretations belong to God. When we see Christ riding in Revelation chapter six in righteousness with a bow, it "Should" send us right to the Psalms where we unambiguously see the very same spiritual pictures. ..and He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Psalms 45:3-7

• "Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
• And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
• Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
• Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
• Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Who is this horseman with a bow, who rides a horse in righteousness? Is it Satan? No, it is Christ that has been anointed King, been given a crown, is riding prosperously with this bow in "Righteousness" to judge and make war. How much clearer can it get, humm?! Moreover, God confirms the fulfillment of this prophecy of Christ in Hebrews as He quotes this of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8

• "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Taken directly from that Psalm 45 above! Clearly, the idea that the rider in Revelation 6:2 cannot be Christ because He has a bow is nonsensical, and because He has no sword is also shown to be untenable. Here in Psalms 45 we see this rider Christ has both sword and bow and goes forth riding prosperiously conquering and to conquer. And He has been given a crown.

Luke 1:32-33

• "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
• And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

Indeed He is given a crown, and indeed He does go forth conquering and to conquer. In Revelation chapter six the crown given the rider in righteousness is no contradiction to Revelation nineteen. Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. In other words, overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail! Satan doesn't qualify. satan may overcome temporarily, but not to overcome ultimately.

The white horse is the strength of Christ's warfare, whereupon he rides when he goes to conquer and subdue new converts and translate them into his kingdom. He comes in the strength of His majesty, truth, meekness, and righteousness, which are made known in the preaching of his gospel. He goes forth tearing down strongholds, that the gates of hell cannot stand against him. He frees the prisoners therein. Spiritual warfare where we are either an army with Christ, or an army against him.

Luke 11:21-23p

• "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
• But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
• He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."

The gates of Hell shall not prevail against Christ, a stronger one, shall break down those gates, free the prisoners, and build His Church. As this rider on the white horse, He goes forth conquering and to conquer, and thus, over the last 2000 years the Church has been built.

There is no mention anywhere of Satan going forth righteously riding on a white horse, conquering and to conquer as you beleive!

How's that for comparing Scripture with Scripture, not just the similarities but also the differences between the two, sir?!

TribulationSigns said:

Sure I will, but the question is will you receive it?

Biblical precedence or at least biblical warrant is necessary. We can't just suurmise that because there are a lot of evil horses there, the white one is evil too. The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture. Comparing one image of rider with another image of rider. Not comparing the image of a rider with the image of a beast. We have to have consistency throughout. Let's start by comparing the two riders. Does this rider in Revelation chapter six compare favorably to the "figures" of Satan that God inspires in scripture? The answer is No. Do they compare with the "figure" God inspires as representing Christ? The answer is Yes. Let's compare.

Revelation 6:2

• "And I saw, and behold a White Horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Revelation 19:11-12

• "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a White Horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
• His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

They compare favorably. In fact, almost identically right down to His coming for warfare, and the crown symbolizing He rules. The question is, why would anyone (based upon what is written in Revelation 6:2) think that this rider on the white horse is someone different from the rider on the white horse in Revelation nineteen? There certainly is nothing (at all) in Revelation 6:2 that would lead us to believe He is a different rider. So where would we get the idea? ..I submit that it comes from man's own reasoning and teachings, rather than what is actually written there.

First consideration. Satan's strength is NEVER symbolized by the color white. And the horses are the symbol of the rider's strength. When you mount an army (in those days) your strength was measured by your number of horsemen. Horsemen gave you the advantage of strength in war. And colors (like numbers) carry great spiritual significance. White 'unquestionably' symbolizes purity or righteousness. For example, the great white throne, the white stone, the clean white robes given the elect, the white cloud that the son of man sat on, the hair white like wool, etc., etc. And here, the "White" horse is in that very same vein of symbols found in the rest of the book of Revelation.

Horse = Strength of battle
White = Righteousness
Horseman on white horse = He who comes in strength of Righteous for warfare.

= Christ!

Christ judges and makes war in righteousness. This color white is not "incidental" in revelation, it is in harmony with the symbolism in revelation. This is no small matter to be cast aside as insignificant (as some do). Because interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture, and that is "extremely" important. Why would God use white to symbolize the rider coming in righteousness in one book of Revelation, and then assign that color to Satan's horse? He's not coming in the strength of righteousness. It makes no sense. Some say because he is a false prophet, but God doesn't need to assign the color white to a horse to show false prophecy. A White horse doesn't symbolize false prophecy, it symbolizes riding in truth, purity, cleanness, and righteousness. We have our two identifiers. The horseman symbolizing He comes in strength (Job 39:19; Isaiah 31:1; Psalm 33:17; Psalm 147:10) of warfare, and color of the horse being white to symbolize He comes in righteous warfare and judgment. Just as Revelation 19 also so clearly illustrates. And as all of Revelation postulates:

Revelation 16:7

• "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments."

Christ comes in righteous judgments and the white horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes righteousness, just as Revelation nineteen does! They are synonymous with each other, the very same symbolism. It is inconsistent for us to say that the White Horse in Revelation chapter six symbolizes Satan, and then claim the white horse in Revelation chapter nineteen does not. That it switches and now symbolizes Christ. Where is the logic for such an abrupt change? They are both white horses! If there is one thing I have learned in my study of the scriptures, it is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error," and is almost always the vehicle of every wrong interpretation. For example, you can't have the Candlesticks in Revelation 2 symbolize the Church, and then turn around in Revelation chapter 11 and claim the candlesticks now represents two physical men who will come and witness! This is not the way to rightly divide the word of truth. Consistency is paramount, and God declares that it is in "Righteousness" that this rider on the white horse goes forth to judge and make war. Again, total agreement and harmony with the horse (symbolizing a strength of battle) being white.

In Revelation chapter 19 we see this rider at the END has many crowns (illustrating He is King of Kings and rules over many nations). And in Revelation 6, when the seal is loosed, at the BEGINNING of His kingdom, we see this rider is given a kingdom (symbolized by one crown). Again, total agreement with Christ going forth in righteousness. Christ was crowned king of kings and Lord of lords by his meritorious work and suffering on the cross. He established His kingdom by that suffering and death. ..to this end was He born.

Hebrews 2:9

• "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Matthew 27:29

• "And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!"

So mock as they would, the truth is, Jesus was crowned King of the Jews by this meritorious work on the cross. He was given a crown, He did "establish" this kingdom by this work. And so again, we have complete and total harmony with the figure being representative of Christ given a crown, and not Satan. Satan hardly rides forth on the vehicle of righteousness (white horse) that he goes forth "both" conquering (overcoming) and to conquer (overcome). This can only be Christ who rides thusly. He is this warrior crowned King and we are his army on white horses who are in battle in this spiritual warfare with Him.

Revelation 17:14

• "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

Revelation 12:11

• "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

The symbolism of this warfare which Christ goes forth conquering and to conquer permeates all throughout scripture.

Notice also that He has a bow in Revelation chapter six? Many have postulated that this proves that this is not Christ, because Christ doesn't have a bow in revelation chapter nineteen. You were saying like, "..See Christ has no sword in Revelation chapter 6, so that proves it's not Christ." But this is all a self-serving exegesis. Such interpretations are easily debunked. For example, Christ has hair which is white like wool in Revelation chapter one, but it isn't mentioned in Revelation nineteen. Does that mean that Christ in Revelation chapter one is not Christ in revelation nineteen? Of course not. That would be a nonsensical way of interpreting. True interpretations come from comparing scripture with scripture in the light of the "Whole" Bible. Doing that is the only way to come to the real truth. So let's do are the more noble Bereans and search the scriptures to see if these things are true. Where else do we see this horseman riding with this bow? Is it an image of Satan or Christ?

Psalms 7:11-13

• "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
• If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his Bow, and made it ready.
• He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors."

Here is the Lord pictured as with His bow and His arrows and coming in judgment (Revelation 6), and His whet sword (Revelation 19). These symbolisms in Revelation are not untraditional teaching, it is a teaching as old as the scriptures themselves. Interpretations belong to God. When we see Christ riding in Revelation chapter six in righteousness with a bow, it "Should" send us right to the Psalms where we unambiguously see the very same spiritual pictures. ..and He who hath an ear, let him hear.

Psalms 45:3-7

• "Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
• And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
• Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
• Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
• Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

Who is this horseman with a bow, who rides a horse in righteousness? Is it Satan? No, it is Christ that has been anointed King, been given a crown, is riding prosperously with this bow in "Righteousness" to judge and make war. How much clearer can it get, humm?! Moreover, God confirms the fulfillment of this prophecy of Christ in Hebrews as He quotes this of Jesus.

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[Had to shorten your quote due to space limitation]



Agreement is not promised, but I am at least willing to understand the basis upon which your viewpoints are formed. But are you willing to address any objections that I raise and consider the basis for those?


“Biblical precedence or at least biblical warrant is necessary.”


I agree with that much.


“The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture.”


That is true but only when the scriptures being compared pertain to the same topic.


“If there is one thing I have learned in my study of the scriptures, it is that "inconsistency is the hallmark of error," and is almost always the vehicle of every wrong interpretation.”


Yes, but so has taking scripture out of its proper context, neglecting to examine the full counsel of scripture on any given matter, and either overlooking or dismissing details within its context.


“Does this rider in Revelation chapter six compare favorably to the "figures" of Satan that God inspires in scripture? The answer is No.”

"There certainly is nothing (at all) in Revelation 6:2 that would lead us to believe He is a different rider. So where would we get the idea? ..I submit that it comes from man's own reasoning and teachings, rather than what is actually written there.”


That depends on what basis that conclusion is reached. If they claim to have scriptural support for that conclusion, then let us examine the scriptures that they have put forth to make their case.


"...colors (like numbers) carry great spiritual significance. White 'unquestionably' symbolizes purity or righteousness."


That may be true in a general sense, but consider that scripture also says that Satan does come as an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14) Now, we know that the Anti-Christ is a “counterfeit” to Christ and not just a counterfeit but the counterfeit above all counterfeits and the best counterfeits are going to be amazingly similar to the real thing.


“Notice also that He has a bow in Revelation chapter six? Many have postulated that this proves that this is not Christ...But this is all a self-serving exegesis. Such interpretations are easily debunked.”


The Anti-Christ theory is more persuasive and formidable than what you give it credit for and even if you don’t buy into it, at least understand the basis for it. The proponents behind this theory point out that not only does the rider represented by the first seal have a bow, but he possesses no arrows thus indicating that his method of conquering is different from what most would expect.

The prophet Daniel gave some insight into how the Anti-Christ will come to power stating that he “by peace shall destroy many.” (Dan. 8:25) How does peace destroy? Violence is what we expect to bring destruction, but peace? That is an unfathomable scenario apart from a false peace built upon elaborate deception. To lull the world into a false security, the Anti-Christ will promise peace. He will make proposal that will sound too good and promising to resist. He will even perform seemingly beneficial acts as would be expected of one taking on the appearance of righteousness.

That, and the death and destruction which follow after the opening of the first seal would all explain the basis for this theory. But if the first seal is supposed to be Christ, then why do all the things that He will bring to an end follow after Him? When Christ returns, all these things that the other seals bring will cease.



“Where else do we see this horseman riding with this bow? Is it an image of Satan or Christ?

Psalms 7:11-13

• "God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
• If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his Bow, and made it ready.
• He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors."

Psalms 45:3-7

• "Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
• And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
• Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
• Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
• Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

While I can see the justification for concluding that the first seal is depicting Christ, the argument that they who believe it to be the Anti-Christ would tell you that counterfeits can be made to appear remarkably similar to the real thing which is why the differences between the rider of the first seal and Christ cannot be easily dismissed:

The rider conquers with a bow and wears a crown. Christ conquers with a sword which is the Word of God and wears many crowns. Revelation 19 is the only time where the Word of God kills anyone as it mentions that the armies of the Anti-Christ are slain with the Word of God.

The rider being represented by the first seal appears at the beginning of the tribulation. Christ returns at the end. But if the seal is supposed to be Christ, why would He be the first seal and not the last seal?


“Christ has hair which is white like wool in Revelation chapter one, but it isn't mentioned in Revelation nineteen. Does that mean that Christ in Revelation chapter one is not Christ in revelation nineteen? Of course not. That would be a nonsensical way of interpreting.”


Of course it would be because chapters one and nineteen are both talking about Christ yet both give different details. But if the first seal is not a counterfeit Christ, then tell me, what vision would you expect to depict a counterfeit Christ? A figure that everyone would recognize to be evil or a figure taking on the appearance of righteousness and yet is evil?

As for the two witnesses in Revelation chapter 11 in comparison to the seven churches in chapter 2, both are represented by candle sticks. Both are witnesses for Christ. But in chapter 11, the witnesses are not called churches, they are called prophets and churches are never called prophets, though they may contain prophets within them. Another thing that the prophets are represented by that the seven churches are not is that they are represented not only by candlesticks but also olive trees. Olive trees are not used to represent the seven churches.

When comparing scripture with scripture, it is not always enough to just compare symbolic expressions, but also the subject matter and context of each to which those symbolic expressions are being applied.

I will be curious as to what your response will be.

Contenders Edge said:

That may be true in a general sense, but consider that scripture also says that Satan does come as an angel of light. (2 Cor. 11:14) Now, we know that the Anti-Christ is a “counterfeit” to Christ and not just a counterfeit but the counterfeit above all counterfeits and the best counterfeits are going to be amazingly similar to the real thing.

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What you have been implying is that this verse means that Satan was transformed as riding upon a white horse. Which of course it doesn't. There is no transformed. The white horse "IS" a white horse. It's not transformed into a white horse or disguised as a white horse, or come in the fashion or figure of a White Horse, it IS a white horse this conquering rider comes upon. He rides upon a white horse. John saw a "White Horse." Get That Part Straight First. He didn't come looking like he was riding on a white horse. He "WAS" riding on a white horse. It was to imply that Satan really wasn't riding upon a white horse, he is disguised as riding upon it. That is as bad an explanation of that scripture as I have seen in a long while.

Also keep in mind, Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer--that is, so as to gain an ultimate and lasting victory. Overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail!

Satan doesn't qualify.

The Anti-Christ theory is more persuasive and formidable than what you give it credit for

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Ahh, the anti-christ THEORY is just a man-made theory. Not God's interpretation.

The prophet Daniel gave some insight into how the Anti-Christ will come to power stating that he “by peace shall destroy many.” (Dan. 8:25) How does peace destroy? Violence is what we expect to bring destruction, but peace?

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I'm afraid that the distorted reality is all yours is about physical war with guns and bombs and physical peace. The Scripture is clear that the spirit of Satan works in man to destroy God's people, and through that very same false sense of peace (cessation of warfare). For example:

Daniel 8:24-25

• "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

In fact, it is by this false peace, or this false sense of "reconciliation with God," that the antichrist spirit wrecks havoc on God's congregation. It is the false salvation gospel that mimic Christ's peace that actually destroys the souls of many. It is the STRONG DELUSION that they are serving God (John 16:2), when they are in fact serving as messengers of that old Serpent. I think perhaps a little repetitive reading and study would actually do you some good in the reality check department.

That, and the death and destruction which follow after the opening of the first seal would all explain the basis for this theory.

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Nothing to do with flesh and physical warfare. It is spiritual deception which is much deadlier!

But if the first seal is supposed to be Christ, then why do all the things that He will bring to an end follow after Him?

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The red, black, and pale horsemen will not occur until the White Horse (Christ) finished conquering and to conquering through the testimony of the Church to secure Elect. Then the rest of the horsemen are used by God as a judgment upon unfaithful congregation prior to Second COming (White Horse - Revelation 19).

Do you know what the red, black, and pale horsemen represent, spiritually?

Of course it would be because chapters one and nineteen are both talking about Christ yet both give different details. But if the first seal is not a counterfeit Christ, then tell me, what vision would you expect to depict a counterfeit Christ? A figure that everyone would recognize to be evil or a figure taking on the appearance of righteousness and yet is evil?

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Where do you find antichrists with the appearance of righteousness at? Is it not the Church - the false prophets and christs?

But in chapter 11, the witnesses are not called churches, they are called prophets and churches are never called prophets, though they may contain prophets within them.

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As Jesus is a priest, a prophet and a king, so may you also live always as a member of his body. You've just been incorporated into the body of Christ by your baptism. Now you are called to be as Jesus was -- priest, prophet, and king or ruler. And that role of prophecy is to speak on behalf of God and God's truth. So yes, we, ALL CHRISTIANS, are the prophets of God.

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Olive trees are not used to represent the seven churches.

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I will split this response to your question into two post due to length.

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Christians have been taught so many different interpretations about the candlesticks and olive trees that many find these verses confusing or difficult to sort out. There are some theologians who claim that these two represent the Old and New Testament Churches. But that obviously cannot[19]. There is only one Church at the time of their prophecy, not two Testament witnesses to whom it is 'given' to prophecy at this time. Nor can it be Biblically validated that these are literally Enoch, Moses or Elijah as has been alleged.

The number one rule when trying to understand the 'symbolism' of Revelation is to remember that, 'the Bible is it's own interpreter.' In other words, the interpretation of these passages will be found in God's Word, not in our personal conceptions or in the imaginations of our heart. We compare[19a]. By this we allow God to define His own terms. When we do this, our faithful work in Christ is rewarded and we begin to see how God consistently repeats the same symbolism throughout scripture. We learn from the text, the context, and in what sense it is used throughout. In this way we come to understand what God is illustrating by the word.

The fact is, to really understand the background of the symbolism of the candlesticks (lampstands), we have to go back to the Old Testament where the candlestick was commanded to be put in the Temple of God, and to be kept burning continually [tamiyd] by the service of the children of Israel. By this God was prefiguring that He is the light of the Temple of God, and that it is by the service of His servants that it will be kept burning continually. God is the true light of the Temple. And He is the tree which supplies the pure Olive oil (Spirit) for it's burning.

2nd Samuel 22:29

• "For Thou art my Lamp, O Lord: and the Lord will lighten my darkness."

The significance in God commanding the children of Israel to keep the lamp of the Temple burning (Leviticus 24:1-3), is to show that the children of God have the work assigned them to keep light burning bright always. And this is the very same job that the Lord has given the New Testament Church today also. God's children today are commanded to keep the light burning continually, as they were commanded to do in the Old Testament congregation. We can clearly see this 'signification' as Jesus told the Church, 'Ye are the light of the world.' This is only because we are in Christ, and He is the true light of the world. And that was the same 'signification' that God was illustrating in the Old Testament ceremonial law of the lampstand (candlestick). Christ was the true focal point of it. He was the light, and they were His servants commissioned to keep it burning always. i.e., work that the light of the Lord would shine always. Unfortunately today, many have forsaken this calling, and forgotten it's history.

Exodus 27:20

• "And thou shalt command the children of Israel, that they bring the pure oil olive beaten for the light, to cause the Lamp to burn always.
• In the Tabernacle of the congregation without the veil, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the Lord; it shall be a statute FOR EVER unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel."

That Hebrew word translated always is the exact same word [tamiyd] translated continual. The children of God were to keep that light Shining brightly always in the Holy Temple. It illustrated the precious light of the Lord that shines in the darkness. It was their work or service to assure it remained burning by the pure oil of the olive. All these things of the Old Testament (shewbread, spoons, lamps, bowls, etc) of the Tabernacle, were fulfilled in Christ. He was that true light of the Temple that burns continually. That veil in the Temple signifies His Flesh, and the sacrifice blood on the altar a figure of His blood. All these were fulfilled in Christ. To try and bring any of these things of the literal Temple back would be an abomination, and would imply that Christ didn't fulfill them, or that He wasn't what these types looked forward to. The literal ceremonial laws cannot be applicable today. The Candlestick is fulfilled in the light of Christ. And just as the Church takes on the name CHRISTian, Holy Temple, Holy City, or Olive Tree, it takes on the name of the Candlestick or the Lampstand of Christ. It is an illustration that they are in the service of keeping the light of the Holy Temple. That is because the Church is the Body of Christ. We are the reflection of Christ in the world, we are the Children of God whose job it is to go forth keeping the light of the Candlestick burning continually just as it was the job of the Old Testament Israelites to do. To this end are we called. And that is why in Revelation we see God use Candlesticks as symbolism for His Church. They illustrate the Children of God in service to the light of Christ. This is not an assumption or idle speculation, God tells us 'point blank' what the symbolism of the Candlesticks are. And He does so both in the book of Revelation, and in other books. From the very first chapter of this apocalypse of Revelation, God had revealed the mystery or secret of the symbolism of the candlestick. We need only receive His explanation of what it is an image of, rather than accept man's speculation. i.e., by that same comparing scripture with scripture and letting God be His own interpreter of His Word.

Revelation 1:20

• "the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden Candlesticks. The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches: and the seven Candlesticks are the seven Churches."

God says the mystery [musterion], or the secret of the symbolism is revealed. The Candlestick is a symbol of God's Church. The star is a symbol of the messenger of God's Church. So here we have God from the very beginning of the book of Revelation revealing what the imagery of the Candlesticks symbolized. And yet we have theologians who, because of presuppositions or tradition, are looking for any excuse why we are not to understand this symbolism this way just a few chapters later. God interprets the symbolism for us, and He said the seven Candlesticks signified seven Churches. Perfect harmony with the rest of scripture, because the Church is the representation of the Kingdom of Christ on earth, and it is signified as the light of the World.

And really, why should anyone be surprised at this symbolism? Despite the objections of some, Jesus used this same symbolism for the Church all during His teachings. The sound method in Biblical exegesis is achieved by checking for likeness and differences where these same terms are used throughout scripture. In that way we find out what God means by the spiritual imagery. We don't simply parrot what someone else has taught before, we bear witness to what God teaches.

Luke 8:16

• "No man when he lighteth a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a Candlestick, that they which enter in may see the Light."

Matthew 5:14

• "Ye are the light of the world, A City that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
• neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a Candlestick; and it giveth Light unto all that are in the house."

Here again, we have Jesus Christ Himself using the same Candlestick [luchnia] to symbolize the Church, and the witnesses work in the New Testament Church as those keeping the light shinning continually, not hiding it, but bringing this light to the World. It doesn't get much plainer than this. And note that Jesus also equates the Church with a 'city' which is set upon a hill. This is the Holy city Jerusalem, the spiritual city of peace and light. And so we have conclusive indisputable evidences throughout scripture that the candlestick symbolizes the Church, the earthly representation of the light of the Lord. There is really no reason for speculation about it symbolizing anything else, unless one is predisposed to believing such ideas. For God Himself reveals the mystery on several diverse fronts.

Will this definition of the two witnesses hold true in the other images God uses for them, such as the two witnesses or the two Olive Trees? Do those also symbolize the Church which is the earthly representation of Christ? Again, we go back to the number one rule of sound hermeneutics, 'the Bible is it's own interpreter.' If we start off with no preconceived ideas about what it signifies, and search out the pertinent scriptures, it's not long before we see that the Olive tree is indeed used by God to symbolize the Church. For example in Hosea 14, speaking of Christ we read:

Hosea 14:5-7

• "I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
• His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the Olive Tree, and his smell as Lebanon."
• They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon."

The Israel of God is ultimately Christ, and the children of God who dwell under the shadow of this tree will have no scorching sun on them. When we are in Christ, we are like a green olive tree in the house of the Lord (Psalms 52:8). This is the Salvation and the hope of the Israel of God. And as we are the light of the world because Christ is the light of the world, so we are the Olive tree because Christ is this Olive tree. He is the Israel of the New Covenant in whom if we abide, we are sons of God. We can see this most clearly in a passage like Romans chapter nine or chapter eleven where the Gentile nations are grafted into New Covenant Israel, which is symbolized by the Olive tree.

Romans 11:17

• "And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;"

Clearly God is using a wild olive tree to symbolize the Gentile nations, and the natural Olive Tree to symbolize the representation of Covenant Israel into which believers are grafted. i.e., we join with Paul and the Apostles into Christ, the true Israel of God (Ephesians 2:11-19) which this Covenant tree merely represents. This is the New Covenant Church, and it is symbolized by the olive tree having Gentiles grafted into it that they become heirs (right along with the Jews) according to the promises to Israel. And so once again we see the Word of God showing just who the olive tree represents. All those Gentiles coming into this Jewish olive tree are the believers coming into the New Covenant Congregation. Those branches of the tree broken off are those of Israel who come under judgment and are blinded. The Jewish brethren who are Saved are the branches in this same tree right along with us. So we see Jewish people and Gentiles, all in the exact same olive tree of Salvation.

Likewise in Zechariah chapter four, the symbolism of two olive trees and the candlestick (lampstand) are signifying the Church.

Zechariah 4:2-6

• "And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
• And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
• So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
• Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
• Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts."

End of Part One...

Part Two...

The Lampstands and olive tress stand before God, not by their own power or by their own might, but by the Holy Spirit of the Lord. This again illustrating what we've been seeing of the two Witnesses. It is not by any power we have inherently, but because of the power of the Holy Spirit of God given us that we witness or have the testimony of Christ. Not by our own oil, but by the pure oil of the Olive tree. Not by our own light, but by the light of the candle. The two olive trees symbolize the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth (Zechariah 4:14), not by their own power, but by power of God. This symbolizes the Church, anointed by the Spirit of God. Just as we read that the two Witnesses of Revelation also stand by the Lord of the earth.

Zechariah 4:14

• "Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."

The same thing revelation chapter eleven says of the two candlestick/olive trees there. They stand before the God of the earth. They are the anointed ones, meaning they are those who are anointed by the Holy Spirit, by being in Christ. The oil for the light is not theirs, it is that given them.

1st John 2:27

• "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

So we have seen from God's Word that the Witnesses represent the Church, the Candlesticks represent the Church, and the Olive Tree represents the Church, and that they are the anointed ones who stand before the God of the earth. All roads are leading to the same inescapable conclusion. This imagery represents the Church.

The final identifying factor is that these two witnesses are also called the two Prophets (verse 10). Who are the Prophets of God today? Not in the Old Testament, but who are the New Testament Prophets? ..Again, clearly, everyone in the Church is the only Holy prophets of God today.

1st Corinthians 12:28

• "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Ever since the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, the Lord's servants of the New Covenant Church go forth prophesying (Acts 2:17). Whenever the Church declares the Word that the future holds everlasting life for the servants of God, an inheritance from above, and it holds judgment for those who do not believe, they are prophesying. Whenever they prophecy Jesus will someday return on the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church and wipe away all tears, they are prophesying God's Word. To prophesy in the broad sense means to be a messenger of God to declare His Word, or be a 'mouth piece.' In certain senses it means to declare God's Word by foretelling what God has in store in the future. And that is exactly what the Church does in it's testimony. It prophesies of God's Word of deliverance, judgment, inheritance, and Christ's coming.

It is true that there is the particular 'office' of a prophet in the Church, but in the general sense, all believers are prophets in that they are messengers to deliver God's Word. All through the scripture God calls those of the Church His prophets. This is implied also in God's warning us to 'beware of false prophets,' as opposed to true prophets (those with His testimony). You see, in one sense all true Christians today are prophets of God, declaring what shall be.

Joel 2:28

• "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:"

Acts 2:16-18

• "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
• And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
• And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:"

We are made prophets able to declare God's Word by the anointing of the Holy Spirit poured out at Pentecost. This was the fulfillment of that which was prophesied in Joel. That which was a mystery before, was made known. That the Gentiles in the New Testament Church dispensation would be prophets unto God and have truth revealed unto them.

Ephesians 3:5

• "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto His Holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit."

All of us who are messengers declaring God's Word, are prophets. When God declares to his servants the prophets, he's declaring to the Church. Whether through the Bible by the Spirit, or before the Bible was complete by angels or from a burning Bush. When we bear witness to God's Word, we are prophesying just as the prophets of old did. They took what God told them, and they bore witness to it to His people. If we do it faithfully 'from' the innerrant Word of God, we are faithful (to God) prophets. If we do it unfaithfully or deceitfully, then we are false prophets. To put it simply, a faithful Prophet declares God's Word from God's mouth faithfully.

The consistency of all these things paints a glorious picture of God's prophecy. These two candlesticks are the Church, the light of the world, the true witnesses to the testimony of Christ who stand before the God of all the Earth. Just as when Jesus sent the 70 out by two, He said rejoice not in this power, but rejoice that your names were written in Heaven. In Luke 10:21 God said that the Father was Lord of Heaven and Earth, and this is the God of all the earth that all true believers stand before. Indeed, who except the true witnesses could stand before the God of all the earth and not be consumed? For they are those clothed in the righteousness of Christ.

When we study all the pertinent facts carefully, I believe that we can come to no other conclusion but that the two Candlesticks, Witnesses, Prophets, and Olive trees are the Church. They all fit interchangeably as a sign illustrating God's people. Like a gigantic Biblical picture puzzle, every piece fits perfectly. This is how we know we have come to real truth, as inconsistency is the hallmark of error.


Olive tree = Church (Romans 11)
Candlestick= Church (Revelation 1)
Witnesses = Church (Acts 1)
Prophets = Church (Revelation 1)

I'd say this is pretty conclusive evidence. We've seen clear scripture which supports the candlestick, Olive Tree, Witnesses, and Prophets, are all used in scripture as representations of the Church. We've seen Biblical evidence that God uses the number two, and specifically, two witnesses, to illustrate a confirmation of that which is true. It is the true Church of God that is sent forth with power to witness in truth (as the 12 Apostles were sent out two by two). By contrast, there are no scriptures which say that the olive tree is Moses, or that it is Elijah, or that candlesticks symbolize enoch or the two covenants. That fact alone means that such personal interpretations are purely speculation by some theologians. In other words, it is not something which is actually declared, or which stands upon solid scripture.

The overview of verse four is that God gave power to these two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days in mourning. This is a symbolic picture of the indivisible Church as it has been given the power to testify for this length of time. Moreover, so that there is no confusion about these being literally two men, God also enlightens us that these are the two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And that word standing is again the Greek word [histemi] illustrating they are able to stand with God by the support of Christ. They 'stand' before God and give assent to His will, His Word, and His purpose, because they are made righteous in Christ. We have our consistent and Biblical understanding of this imagery. These witnesses are a representation of God's Church, and specifically in this context, God's 'true Church' not the external covenant Church. They are those who are 'standing before the God of the earth,' importing that they were strengthened in Christ, faithful messengers who adhere to His cause and testimonies.

TribulationSigns said:

What you have been implying is that this verse means that Satan was transformed as riding upon a white horse. Which of course it doesn't. There is no transformed. The white horse "IS" a white horse. It's not transformed into a white horse or disguised as a white horse, or come in the fashion or figure of a White Horse, it IS a white horse this conquering rider comes upon. He rides upon a white horse. John saw a "White Horse." Get That Part Straight First. He didn't come looking like he was riding on a white horse. He "WAS" riding on a white horse. It was to imply that Satan really wasn't riding upon a white horse, he is disguised as riding upon it. That is as bad an explanation of that scripture as I have seen in a long while.

Also keep in mind, Satan may go forth and conquer, but Christ is the only one who goes forth Conquering and to Conquer--that is, so as to gain an ultimate and lasting victory. Overcoming and to overcome! Prevailing and to Prevail!

Satan doesn't qualify.



Ahh, the anti-christ THEORY is just a man-made theory. Not God's interpretation.




I'm afraid that the distorted reality is all yours is about physical war with guns and bombs and physical peace. The Scripture is clear that the spirit of Satan works in man to destroy God's people, and through that very same false sense of peace (cessation of warfare). For example:

Daniel 8:24-25

• "And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
• And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

In fact, it is by this false peace, or this false sense of "reconciliation with God," that the antichrist spirit wrecks havoc on God's congregation. It is the false salvation gospel that mimic Christ's peace that actually destroys the souls of many. It is the STRONG DELUSION that they are serving God (John 16:2), when they are in fact serving as messengers of that old Serpent. I think perhaps a little repetitive reading and study would actually do you some good in the reality check department.



Nothing to do with flesh and physical warfare. It is spiritual deception which is much deadlier!



The red, black, and pale horsemen will not occur until the White Horse (Christ) finished conquering and to conquering through the testimony of the Church to secure Elect. Then the rest of the horsemen are used by God as a judgment upon unfaithful congregation prior to Second COming (White Horse - Revelation 19).

Do you know what the red, black, and pale horsemen represent, spiritually?



Where do you find antichrists with the appearance of righteousness at? Is it not the Church - the false prophets and christs?



As Jesus is a priest, a prophet and a king, so may you also live always as a member of his body. You've just been incorporated into the body of Christ by your baptism. Now you are called to be as Jesus was -- priest, prophet, and king or ruler. And that role of prophecy is to speak on behalf of God and God's truth. So yes, we, ALL CHRISTIANS, are the prophets of God.

Continue to next post....

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TribulationSigns said:

Where do you find antichrists with the appearance of righteousness at? Is it not the Church - the false prophets and christs?



As Jesus is a priest, a prophet and a king, so may you also live always as a member of his body. You've just been incorporated into the body of Christ by your baptism. Now you are called to be as Jesus was -- priest, prophet, and king or ruler. And that role of prophecy is to speak on behalf of God and God's truth. So yes, we, ALL CHRISTIANS, are the prophets of God.

Continue to next post....

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Post 2:

TribulationSigns said:

As Jesus is a priest, a prophet and a king, so may you also live always as a member of his body. You've just been incorporated into the body of Christ by your baptism. Now you are called to be as Jesus was -- priest, prophet, and king or ruler. And that role of prophecy is to speak on behalf of God and God's truth. So yes, we, ALL CHRISTIANS, are the prophets of God.

Continue to next post....

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We are made kings and priests because we are joint-heirs with Christ, but prophecy is a spiritual gift that is not administered to all believers and the scripture is very clear on that. (1 Cor. 12:27-30) We, like prophets, are all commanded to preach the Word of God given to us, but the office of the prophet entails much more.

Any more discussion about spiritual gifts and how they are administered would be best done on another thread, which you could start if you would like unless I perhaps get around to it before you do. If we debate the matter any further on it here, we both may be penalized for going off-topic and I wish to spare us both that.

Contenders Edge said:

What is implied is the form in which the Anti-Christ, the counterfeit to the true Christ, is believed to appear, which is the appearance of a righteous figure.

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That is now how John wrote it in Revelation 6. John wrote a white horse without a hint about him possible be counterfeit. I already explained my position on this. No need to repeat here. Read my post again.

Again, what vision would be best appropriate for giving warning about an evil figure that will act as counterfeit to that which is the real thing? Would not that counterfeit have similarities to the real thing?

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Where did John give you an idea that God warned us about the white horse in Revelation 6 to be counterfeit in his vision?

It is about what John saw and whether or not this figure represents what it appears to represent and what you say it represents may not represent “what it appears” to represent and if this figure is representing a figure that is not Christ but pretending to be Him, we can only expect such a representation to “have the appearance of” but not be who we may at first think he is.

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Speculations. According to the context and whole book of Revelation regarding the white horse. He is Christ who rode from the beginning of the church to the end at His Coming. Period.

And as you yourself already pointed out, Satan does go forth conquering and to conquer as will be the case with the Anti-Christ

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Stop right there. Where did I say that Satan went forth conquering AND TO CONQUER? God did not say that. I did not say that. You did. You need to read my post again.

As for the rest of your post, I see so many errors that I decided not to waste my time correcting you.

Contenders Edge said:

Post 2:

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Huh? Not going to waste my response to points of your post. The bottomline is once more and more churches fell into apostasy, the world grows darker where people are attacking Christian values (and businesses) all over the world. I have no dispute with this.

Contenders Edge said:

We are made kings and priests because we are joint-heirs with Christ, but prophecy is a spiritual gift that is not administered to all believers and the scripture is very clear on that. (1 Cor. 12:27-30) We, like prophets, are all commanded to preach the Word of God given to us, but the office of the prophet entails much more.

Any more discussion about spiritual gifts and how they are administered would be best done on another thread, which you could start if you would like unless I perhaps get around to it before you do. If we debate the matter any further on it here, we both may be penalized for going off-topic and I wish to spare us both that.

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Ephesians 4:11

• "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"

It is true, we all have been given our special gifts or talents. And yet it is the duty of everyone to be an evangelist. It is the duty of everyone to be a prophet. It is the duty of everyone to be a teacher, a pastor or shepherd, an apostle (ambassador) for Christ. That doesn't negate God giving some the gift wherein they excel in a special way in one of these areas.

My point is, if you are not a prophet of God, then you are not a Christian. If you declare that Christ is coming again, you are a prophet. We're all prophets or mouthpieces of God going forth declaring God's word, everyday! If you are not an evangelist, you are neglecting the great commission. If you declare that people must be born again, you are a evangelist. If you declare that water baptism symbolizes the spiritual ablution in being washed clean of our sins, you are a teacher. If you are not a teacher, you didn't train your children in the way they should go, nor have you fed the sheep. We're all messengers of God if God dwells within us.

Romans 12:3-4

• "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
• For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:"

All of the body have the same powers in Christ. But some are given special ability to excel in one of these areas, and that is called a gift or office. People with special gifts may have a special office, such as Pastor. Yet if you read, "thus saith the Lord," you are a Apostle/Ambassador of the Lord. That doesn't mean there isn't an administration or office of Apostle, Teacher, Pastor, Prophet or Evangelist. Was not the Apostle Paul all of these? So clearly, one doesn't negate the other, nor mean you cannot have the other.

So yes you are right that it is the duty of everyone to evangelize, and the gift of being an evangelist is having a special ability in that area bestowed upon some by God.

TribulationSigns said:

You believe that you do not know the date because you are waiting for the "Antichrist" to appear to fulfill the first seal, then you are mistaken. The white horse is not the Antichrist. God has already defined who white horse in Scripture, so why don't you try read Revelation 19:11 next time.

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The white horse in Revelation 6 indicates the person is perceived to be the messiah, but is not.

TribulationSigns said:

We can't just suurmise that because there are a lot of evil horses there, the white one is evil too. The truth of the symbolism is found only in comparing scripture with scripture.

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The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is on earth.

Differently, Jesus is on a white horse coming from heaven.

Douggg said:

The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6 is on earth.

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Where did God said this? Show me the chapter and verse.

Differently, Jesus is on a white horse coming from heaven.

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And?

Rev 19:11-14
(11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
(13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
(14) And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

I do not see that they will come down to Earth, don't you? (And no, Zechariah 14 is not about the Second Coming of Christ where you believe Christ will touch down on Mount of Olives).

TribulationSigns said:

Where did God said this? Show me the chapter and verse.

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I don't care to engage in a Bill Clinton like meaning regarding "is" type argument.

The person goes forth conquering - which is obviously on earth. The verse does not apply to heaven.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Douggg said:

The person goes forth conquering - which is obviously on earth. The verse does not apply to heaven.

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

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You insisted that the white horse comes from Earth simply because you believe the rider is the antichrist on Earth. Surprise, surprise.

TribulationSigns said:

You insisted that the white horse comes from Earth simply because you believe the rider is the antichrist on Earth. Surprise, surprise.

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Because the 7 seals cover the 7 years, which the 7 years are in Revelation in the various components of 1260 days, 42 months, the time, times, half time. And the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9, corresponding to what Moses required of all future leaders in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - which the Antichrist, perceived messiah anointed the King of Israel, will make that speech.

And the 100% certainty that the 7 years follow Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38-39, which Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18, which you say is Jesus in Revelation 19 carrying out judgment.


Ezekiel 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

21 And I [Jesus] will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.