Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)

Hammster said:

Because not all are called.

Click to expand...

This seems to have roots in Matthew 22:14.

By called, do you mean chosen?

Hammster said:

The chosen are called. Romans 8:28-30

Click to expand...

Why does Matthew 22:14 distinguish the Called from the Chosen, in your estimation?

Hammster said:

I’ve looked at that. The word for called is different. But even if they weren’t, we can see be the context that there’s a difference. In Romans, something happens. They are justified. Not maybe justified, or possibly justified, or only some are justified. So, if we look at the letter as a whole, we see that we are justified by faith. So the calling leads to faith.

In Matthew, it appears that it’s a general call. It’s the preaching of the word. People ignored. What happened? They had to go and gather people because nobody wanted to come. Those gathered are the chosen. So we can see that many were called, but few were chosen.

Click to expand...

What is the purpose of Jesus spelling out the Gospel delivery in the following account?

Matthew 13:47-52

If the net didn’t gather a large group, and the group is sorted through... to say that the chosen are on the burden of God would be fair. But, because the parable of the Sower includes the burden being on the recipient of the Gospel, is it not a burden of response to the draw, on the part of the person?

Hammster said:

This is the frustrating part of these discussions (and not just with you). Texts get presented, and I respond to them, and the questioner moves on as if I didn’t say anything. So we don’t really get to have a discussion, but it’s just a slow bombing raid where I deal with one text after the other.

Click to expand...

I call that scripture whack a mole. I’m redirecting the thread to topically focus on 3 passages of scripture to allow simplicity of discussion.

I didn’t mean it to be so, but was evaluating our discussion, through the perspective of Christ’s literal words. I’m not as closed minded as may appear. The burden of proof is in our interpretive use of text, is it not?

Also, I added a logical question to my earlier post...

Hammster said:

I’ve looked at that. The word for called is different. But even if they weren’t, we can see be the context that there’s a difference. In Romans, something happens. They are justified. Not maybe justified, or possibly justified, or only some are justified. So, if we look at the letter as a whole, we see that we are justified by faith. So the calling leads to faith.

In Matthew, it appears that it’s a general call. It’s the preaching of the word. People ignored. What happened? They had to go and gather people because nobody wanted to come. Those gathered are the chosen. So we can see that many were called, but few were chosen.

Click to expand...

What is the purpose of Jesus spelling out the Gospel delivery in the following account?

Matthew 13:47-52

If the net didn’t gather a large group, and the group is sorted through... to say that the chosen are on the burden of God would be fair. But, because the parable of the Sower includes the burden being on the recipient of the Gospel, is it not a burden of response to the draw, on the part of the person?

Hammster said:

This is the frustrating part of these discussions (and not just with you). Texts get presented, and I respond to them, and the questioner moves on as if I didn’t say anything. So we don’t really get to have a discussion, but it’s just a slow bombing raid where I deal with one text after the other.

Click to expand...

I’m not after a use of thread history to hang you. I’m simply looking to flesh out the core understanding that differentiates our textual understanding.... within the OP.

No AHA, Got you’s, On my part, will come. This is a different type of discussion.

Hammster said:

What’s the molinist understanding?

Click to expand...

All means All, as in all that “could have ever existed” will exist... “even drawing from middle Knowledge” and be drawn by God in every possible way... though some will hold to pride and Rejection of the source of All Love that gives them life... per the Love Of 1 Corinthians 13...

Yet many will respond...

Yet the many that respond may be overwhelmed in number by those that reject Him.

All that exist or could have been contrived will be drawn by 1 John 2:2, but only those that find themselves in Him, in humble response to Him will be chosen... as they choose to respond to Him that Loved them first, though all are Loved first, yet all don’t Love back...

That’s it in a nutshell.

Hammster said:

I thought you wanted to talk about those specific verses.

Click to expand...

And so the burden is on myself to do so.... I can live with that.

Verse Analysis to come.... emphasis mine.

The following is a workable format of the passages being reviewed, for exegetic commentary, in reference to how Molinism and Determinism extrapolate these texts into workable doctrine and how their vastly different understandings bind to the text.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

The Parable of the Sower

Matthew 13:1 On that day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea.
2 Such large crowds gathered around Him that He got into a boat and sat down, while the whole crowd stood on the shore.
3 Then He told them many things in parables, saying: "Consider the sower who went out to sow.
4 As he was sowing, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and ate them up.
5 Others fell on rocky ground, where there wasn't much soil, and they sprang up quickly since the soil wasn't deep.
6 But when the sun came up they were scorched, and since they had no root, they withered.
7 Others fell among thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them.
8 Still others fell on good ground, and produced a crop: some 100, some 60, and some 30 times [what was sown].
9 Anyone who has ears should listen!"

Why Jesus Used Parables

10 Then the disciples came up and asked Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11 He answered them, "Because the secrets does not mean "mysteries" in the Eng sense; it means what we can know only by divine revelation. of the kingdom of heaven have been given for you to know, but it has not been given to them.
12 For whoever has, [more] will be given to him, and he will have more than enough. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 For this reason I speak to them in parables, because looking they do not see, and hearing they do not listen or understand.
14 Isaiah's prophecy is fulfilled in them, which says: You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive.
15 For this people's heart has grown callous; their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn back- and I would cure them.
16 "But your eyes are blessed because they do see, and your ears because they do hear!
17 For I assure you: Many prophets and righteous people longed to see the things you see yet didn't see them; to hear the things you hear yet didn't hear them.

The Parable of the Sower Explained

18 "You, then, listen to the parable of the sower:
19 When anyone hears the word about the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the one sown along the path.
20 And the one sown on rocky ground-this is one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy.
21Yet he has no root in himself, but is short-lived. When pressure or persecution comes because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 Now the one sown among the thorns-this is one who hears the word, but the worries of this age and the seduction of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
23 But the one sown on the good ground-this is one who hears and understands the word, who does bear fruit and yields: some 100, some 60, some 30 times [what was sown]."

The Parable of the Wheat and the Weeds

24 He presented another parable to them: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while people were sleeping, his enemy came, sowed weeds among the wheat, and left.
26 When the plants sprouted and produced grain, then the weeds also appeared.
27 The landowner's slaves came to him and said, 'Master, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Then where did the weeds come from?'
28 " 'An enemy did this!' he told them. " 'So, do you want us to go and gather them up?' the slaves asked him.
29 " 'No,' he said. 'When you gather up the weeds, you might also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At harvest time I'll tell the reapers: Gather the weeds first and tie them in bundles to burn them, but store the wheat in my barn. ' "

The Parables of the Mustard Seed and of the Yeast

31 He presented another parable to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field.
32 It's the smallest of all the seeds, but when grown, it's taller than the vegetables and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the sky come and nest in its branches."
33 He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into 50 pounds of flour until it spread through all of it."

Using Parables Fulfills Prophecy

34 Jesus told the crowds all these things in parables, and He would not speak anything to them without a parable,
35 so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled: I will open My mouth in parables; I will declare things kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Jesus Interprets the Wheat and the Weeds

36 Then He dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples approached Him and said, "Explain the parable of the weeds in the field to us."
37 He replied: "The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man;
38 the field is the world; and the good seed-these are the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and
39 the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40 Therefore just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Anyone who has ears should listen!

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and of the Priceless Pearl

44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure, buried in a field, that a man found and reburied. Then in his joy he goes and sells everything he has and buys that field.
45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls.
46 When he found one priceless pearl, he went and sold everything he had, and bought it.

The Parable of the Net

47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a large net thrown into the sea. It collected every kind [of fish],
48 and when it was full, they dragged it ashore, sat down, and gathered the good [fish] into containers, but threw out the worthless ones.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous,
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The Storehouse of Truth

51 "Have you understood all these things?" "Yes," they told Him.
52 "Therefore," He said to them, "every student of Scripture instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who brings out of his storeroom what is new and what is old."
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, He left there.

Rejection at Nazareth

54 He went to His hometown and began to teach them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "How did this wisdom and these miracles come to Him?
55 Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't His mother called Mary, and His brothers James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas?
56 And His sisters, aren't they all with us? So where does He get all these things?"
57 And they were offended by Him. But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his household."
58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

Many Women Support Christ's Work

Luke 8:1 Soon afterwards He was traveling from one town and village to another, preaching and telling the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with Him,
2 and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary, called Magdalene (seven demons had come out of her);
3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward; Susanna; and many others who were supporting them from their possessions.

The Parable of the Sower

4 As a large crowd was gathering, and people were flocking to Him from every town, He said in a parable:
5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. As he was sowing, some fell along the path; it was trampled on, and the birds of the sky ate it up.
6 Other seed fell on the rock; when it sprang up, it withered, since it lacked moisture.
7 Other seed fell among thorns; the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
8 Still other seed fell on good ground; when it sprang up, it produced a crop: 100 times [what was sown]." As He said this, He called out, "Anyone who has ears to hear should listen!"

Why Jesus Used Parables

9 Then His disciples asked Him, "What does this parable mean?"
10 So He said, "The secrets of the kingdom of God have been given for you to know, but to the rest it is in parables, so that Looking they may not see, and hearing they may not understand. "

The Parable of the Sower Explained

11 "This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
12 The seeds along the path are those who have heard. Then the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.
13 And the seeds on the rock are those who, when they hear, welcome the word with joy. Having no root, these believe for a while and depart in a time of testing.
14 As for the seed that fell among thorns, these are the ones who, when they have heard, go on their way and are choked with worries, riches, and pleasures of life, and produce no mature fruit.
15 But the seed in the good ground-these are the ones who, having heard the word with an honest and good heart, hold on to it and by enduring, bear fruit.

Grip Docility said:

Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Click to expand...

"
Within this passage of scripture the word "INVITED" is also displayed as "Called"... upon initial view of this passage, there is a distinguishable division within passage. Because the passage reads "Many are Called/Invited"..... and is then followed by the words, "BUT,"... this use of the word "But" separates a number from among the first group that is then referred to as a different group... "few are chosen".

Because this passage is grammatically rendered so clearly, even going to Greek Root cannot shift the clarity of this passage. The passage reads as follows...

Volume of GROUP A is addressed and Drawn, Invited, Called audibly or through written invitation. From among Volume of GROUP A, GROUP B is selected. IMO, It is grammatically impossible to shift Group A to infer or mean Group B, by the very grammar employed within this passage.

There is a response that must occur on the part of the Invitees, and there are standards that the invitees are being distinguished from one another by. Matthew 22:11-13 is the key to understanding the standard set forth before the passage in study, is expressed. Without a doubt... this garment is referred to in Galatians 3:27 and Romans 13:14. We know this garment refers to what is known as (Justification through the Propitiation of Jesus Christ, that becomes personal Atonement, through Belief in the Good News of Jesus Christ, us-wards.)

Without the Garment of Christ's Righteousness, a person is Naked and subject to Moses... (Galatians 5:4 ; Galatians 5:4 Cross References: Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.)

Within this passage, the Invitation is issued several times... and for various reasons, the invitation is ignored. When people finally attend the wedding banquet, only those who are "Clothed in Jesus Christ" are accepted.

Paul tells us to "PUT ON CHRIST"... and also explains that Hearing the Gospel is followed by the choice of "Believing" the Gospel. This train of thought perfectly follows Jesus Christ's flow of discussion, concerning these matters.