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Because not all are called.
This seems to have roots in Matthew 22:14.
By called, do you mean chosen?
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Because not all are called.
Yes. It’s the only way we can have fellowship. We need a mediator.So the two-way relationship exists after conversion but not before?
The chosen are called. Romans 8:28-30This seems to have roots in Matthew 22:14.
By called, do you mean chosen?
The chosen are called. Romans 8:28-30
I’ve looked at that. The word for called is different. But even if they weren’t, we can see be the context that there’s a difference. In Romans, something happens. They are justified. Not maybe justified, or possibly justified, or only some are justified. So, if we look at the letter as a whole, we see that we are justified by faith. So the calling leads to faith.Why does Matthew 22:14 distinguish the Called from the Chosen, in your estimation?
I’ve looked at that. The word for called is different. But even if they weren’t, we can see be the context that there’s a difference. In Romans, something happens. They are justified. Not maybe justified, or possibly justified, or only some are justified. So, if we look at the letter as a whole, we see that we are justified by faith. So the calling leads to faith.
In Matthew, it appears that it’s a general call. It’s the preaching of the word. People ignored. What happened? They had to go and gather people because nobody wanted to come. Those gathered are the chosen. So we can see that many were called, but few were chosen.
This is the frustrating part of these discussions (and not just with you). Texts get presented, and I respond to them, and the questioner moves on as if I didn’t say anything. So we don’t really get to have a discussion, but it’s just a slow bombing raid where I deal with one text after the other.What is the purpose of Jesus spelling out the Gospel delivery in the following account?
Matthew 13:47-52
This is the frustrating part of these discussions (and not just with you). Texts get presented, and I respond to them, and the questioner moves on as if I didn’t say anything. So we don’t really get to have a discussion, but it’s just a slow bombing raid where I deal with one text after the other.
I’ve looked at that. The word for called is different. But even if they weren’t, we can see be the context that there’s a difference. In Romans, something happens. They are justified. Not maybe justified, or possibly justified, or only some are justified. So, if we look at the letter as a whole, we see that we are justified by faith. So the calling leads to faith.
In Matthew, it appears that it’s a general call. It’s the preaching of the word. People ignored. What happened? They had to go and gather people because nobody wanted to come. Those gathered are the chosen. So we can see that many were called, but few were chosen.
This is the frustrating part of these discussions (and not just with you). Texts get presented, and I respond to them, and the questioner moves on as if I didn’t say anything. So we don’t really get to have a discussion, but it’s just a slow bombing raid where I deal with one text after the other.
Yes. It’s the only way we can have fellowship. We need a mediator.
The burden isn’t on the recipient. It’s on the one who prepares the soil.I call that scripture whack a mole. I’m redirecting the thread to topically focus on 3 passages of scripture to allow simplicity of discussion.
I didn’t mean it to be so, but was evaluating our discussion, through the perspective of Christ’s literal words. I’m not as closed minded as may appear. The burden of proof is in our interpretive use of text, is it not?
Also, I added a logical question to my earlier post...
What is the purpose of Jesus spelling out the Gospel delivery in the following account?
Matthew 13:47-52
If the net didn’t gather a large group, and the group is sorted through... to say that the chosen are on the burden of God would be fair. But, because the parable of the Sower includes the burden being on the recipient of the Gospel, is it not a burden of response to the draw, on the part of the person?
We can’t have communion without unionWell that is interesting that you would propose relationship beginning after conversion. For many Calvinists, including Calvin, theological determinism undermines relationship altogether, but I understand that you differ from Calvin on certain points.
What’s the molinist understanding?New direction of the thread to draw out the Determinism understanding of Scripture and how it differentiates from Molinism’s.
Matthew 22:14 ; Matthew 13 ; Luke 8:1-15
These passages of scripture are now the focus.
What’s the molinist understanding?
I thought you wanted to talk about those specific verses.All means All, as in all that “could have ever existed” will exist... “even drawing from middle Knowledge” and be drawn by God in every possible way... though some will hold to pride and Rejection of the source of All Love that gives them life... per the Love Of 1 Corinthians 13...
Yet many will respond...
Yet the many that respond may be overwhelmed in number by those that reject Him.
All that exist or could have been contrived will be drawn by 1 John 2:2, but only those that find themselves in Him, in humble response to Him will be chosen... as they choose to respond to Him that Loved them first, though all are Loved first, yet all don’t Love back...
That’s it in a nutshell.
I thought you wanted to talk about those specific verses.
"Matthew 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Omniscience has always been downplayed by what is called Determinism, in my own personal opinion.
I personally believe that Determinism condescends God.... and removes His sovereignty.
I’ve lacked the words to convey this for many years now. But I’ll start with anchoring to Principles I agree with... that most all that study God, will understand.
1) God is active within time
2) God is Active Beyond all Time
3) God Knows All things. (All Knowing)
It’s number 3 where I do believe Determinism has flopped.
The underpinning argument to Determinism is that God knows all, thus all is decided in a linear fashion by God.
This limits God. I know it sounds really super awesome to have God dictating every second of everyone’s life, but this is actually contrary to Scripture. It is contrary to scripture because it has God flat responsible for Evil existing, Of His own desire and conception. It is also contrary to scripture, because God is actively responding to humanities decisions, vice the idea that He is going through the motions of pre-decided history.
Philosophical counterpoint... If God hadn’t created everything, Evil would not exist. God is Perfect and Good. It is within God’s creation we see Evil Born. But note, there always has been the possibility that God Created infinite possibilities... and desires to respond to those Infinite possibilities in a Relational fashion that genuinely fosters... Sincere Free Will! Thus, evil is genuinely born outside of God’s will and within the will of free creation. This distinguishing difference is imperative to comprehend.
The following reasoning will be enormously jarring to many... because it addresses the inferiority of Determinism in such a strong light, it proofs Determinism as heretical as Open Theism.
Determinism Limits God to being all knowing in a linear (UniDimensional) fashion by setting a play in motion, and going through said motions... as if we are in the midst of a re-run. This human thinking is so limited that it denies the very truth that we think in a very limited Dimensional sense.., while God clearly is capable of Omni-Dimensional Thinking.
Dimension - an aspect or feature of a situation, problem, or thing.
Strategists are multi-Dimensional thinkers...
Example... A horse was not shoed properly, due to the the lack of a single nail... Because the horse was not shoed properly, A Rider was thrown off the horse... Because the rider was delivering a crucial message, and was knocked out, the message never made it to the General’s hands. Because the General never received the message, the War was lost. Because the war was lost, Wickedness prevailed and an entire nation was enslaved... Because an entire nation was enslaved, an entire people became bitter....
Do you see how that works? A strategist realizes there are an infinite amount of possibilities... and thusly takes every small variance into account, and chooses a coarse of action that will move the outcome towards their will.
I’ll give you another example... Tamar! We see Tamar’s story specifically reveal Scientia Media at work!
God strikes Tamar’s first Husband Dead, because He’s Wicked.
Onan, the brother Of The smited man, is thus given to Tamar as husband. Onan refuses to impregnate Tamar, because by Hebrew Law, the Baby would be of His smited Brother’s namesake. Onan pulls out, spills the seed and again... BAM! He’s struck dead too!
Tamar is in the literal, DNA lineage of Jesus Christ! God was working with human free choice to tend His Son’s Physical Lineage.
How’s that for being a vine pruner?
Sovereign Determinist Omniscience States That God has to order Human History and Future to know Human History and Future.
Sovereign Free Will Omniscience States That God Knows All Free Will decisions that can/could ever be made, amidst their infinite possibilities... and responds to Creation in wisdom of these decisions and possibilities to accomplish His ultimate purpose, through a genuinely relationship orientated drive, Centered from Love!
Which is more Sovereign?
God controlling everything down to the last molecule to bring about His Will?
God responding sincerely and Lovingly to Free Will decisions made by creation that make up an infinite possibility of outcomes, with each passing moment, in such a way that draws creation closer and closer to the Creator?
Before closing... I’m going to express why Open Theism is wrong.... IMO... (It binds God to Time... and thusly denies that God is beyond time). It limits God’s Omniscience... to potential failures on God’s part.
Now... In closing... I’ll express why I think this is Theologically critical...
God created All Creation with infinite potential of choice and outcome. By doing this, God allowed for Creation to Choose Good or Bad. God’s provision of Free Will is a rationally Loving provision, as sincerity cannot exist without Freedom. Creations Failure is not indicative of God’s design, but the sincerity of the Freedom God provides.
Read that one more time, mull it over and really think about this;
Creations Failure is not indicative of God’s Desire for Creation to fail, but is indicative of the sincerity of the Freedom God fosters and provides out of Love.