Why some people struggle financially.

zephcom

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The bible teaches many things, among them, "If a man won't work, he shouldn't eat."

I looked that up. It seems that is an instruction from Paul that applied only to the members of the Christian community. And Paul didn't even imply that it was given to him by any divine means.

At least to me, it did not have any application beyond the Christian community. I'm good with that if you want to starve other Christians into working. But in the greater world I don't see anywhere when Jesus was doling out food that He checked to see if the people receiving it were 'working' or not.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I looked that up. It seems that is an instruction from Paul that applied only to the members of the Christian community. And Paul didn't even imply that it was given to him by any divine means.

At least to me, it did not have any application beyond the Christian community. I'm good with that if you want to starve other Christians into working. But in the greater world I don't see anywhere when Jesus was doling out food that He checked to see if the people receiving it were 'working' or not.

Fast forward to today. We do a very good job of caring for the poor, even the indolent. That said I favor a work requirement for those able to work.

You and others are presenting broad humanitarian statements. I'm in the back room working out the details.
 
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zephcom

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Fast forward to today. We do a very good job of caring for the poor, even the indolent. That said I favor a work requirement for those able to work.

Of course. 'We' do a good job caring for the poor. But then we both know that wasn't what you were talking about when you referenced that passage. You were talking about your personal belief that if someone doesn't work, you have no sympathy for them.

And you used a Bible quote out of context to support that personal belief.

The context, however, shows you were using it completely wrong. In Paul's day, the various Christian communities were structured in a communal nature...socialist if you will...in which the Christians all worked and gave their income to the commune to use for the support of all in the commune. Those who didn't work, either to bring income from outside or within the commune doing things like cooking, were not contributing to the common good and Paul recognized that too many of them would destroy the commune.

It was a simple rule of the commune to ensure it survived and was NOT some divine rule for all people to follow. Yet, people like yourself try to pretend the Bible gives them the authority to insist others -have- to work before they 'deserve' compassion.
 
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mama2one

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Fast forward to today. We do a very good job of caring for the poor, even the indolent.

actually, we don't

where we live more than 1/3 of children at school qualify for free or reduced food

so during the summer, some children don't get enough food because they're not in school to receive those lunches
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Of course. 'We' do a good job caring for the poor. But then we both know that wasn't what you were talking about when you referenced that passage. You were talking about your personal belief that if someone doesn't work, you have no sympathy for them.

And you used a Bible quote out of context to support that personal belief.

The context, however, shows you were using it completely wrong. In Paul's day, the various Christian communities were structured in a communal nature...socialist if you will...in which the Christians all worked and gave their income to the commune to use for the support of all in the commune. Those who didn't work, either to bring income from outside or within the commune doing things like cooking, were not contributing to the common good and Paul recognized that too many of them would destroy the commune.

It was a simple rule of the commune to ensure it survived and was NOT some divine rule for all people to follow. Yet, people like yourself try to pretend the Bible gives them the authority to insist others -have- to work before they 'deserve' compassion.

I was citing the principle, which is valid today, and in all cases.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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where we live more than 1/3 of children at school qualify for free or reduced food

That's not an argument, just a statistic.

so during the summer, some children don't get enough food because they're not in school to receive those lunches

Children on the school lunch program are also eligible for SNAP benefits. That means that they have more than enough food during the school year. Parents can save up dry, canned, and frozen foods to feed them during the summer months. Problem solved.

http://www.frac.org/wp-content/uploads/snap-categorical-eligibility-and-school-meals.pdf

Hunger in America is a 'manufactured' crisis.
 
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zephcom

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I was citing the principle, which is valid today, and in all cases.
Actually, no. It isn't valid today because we don't live communally. And it wasn't even true in all cases when Paul said it.

If it were true in all cases, Jesus would have been denying food to people who didn't work. Paul was just a mere human trying to hold his Christian communities together. Christian communities have moved on and no longer live the communal lifestyle.

His rule is obsolete. That stands in contrast to the rules Jesus set out for all His followers.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Actually, no. It isn't valid today because we don't live communally. And it wasn't even true in all cases when Paul said it.

If it were true in all cases, Jesus would have been denying food to people who didn't work. Paul was just a mere human trying to hold his Christian communities together. Christian communities have moved on and no longer live the communal lifestyle.

His rule is obsolete. That stands in contrast to the rules Jesus set out for all His followers.

The churches did not live 'communally' in those days. They helped each other if the need arose.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I looked that up. It seems that is an instruction from Paul that applied only to the members of the Christian community. And Paul didn't even imply that it was given to him by any divine means.

If Paul was a student of the scriptures (I'm guessing he was) then he indeed receive this knowledge from a divine source.

Proverbs 12:24
The hand of the diligent shall bear rule: but the slothful shall be under tribute.

Proverbs 12:27
The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious.

Proverbs 15:19
The way of the slothful man is as an hedge of thorns: but the way of the righteous is made plain.

Proverbs 18:9
He also that is slothful in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.

Proverbs 19:15
Slothfulness casteth into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.

Proverbs 19:24
A slothful man hideth his hand in his bosom, and will not so much as bring it to his mouth again.

Proverbs 21:25
The desire of the slothful killeth him; for his hands refuse to labour.



Proverbs 24:30
I went by the field of the slothful, and by the vineyard of the man void of understanding;

Proverbs 26:13
The slothful man saith, There is a lion in the way; a lion is in the streets.

Proverbs 26:14
As the door turneth upon his hinges, so doth the slothful upon his bed.



Ecclesiastes 10:18
By much slothfulness the building decayeth; and through idleness of the hands the house droppeth through.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Actually, no. It isn't valid today because we don't live communally. And it wasn't even true in all cases when Paul said it.

If it were true in all cases, Jesus would have been denying food to people who didn't work. Paul was just a mere human trying to hold his Christian communities together. Christian communities have moved on and no longer live the communal lifestyle.

His rule is obsolete. That stands in contrast to the rules Jesus set out for all His followers.

On a personal level, how long would you feed an able bodied man who refuses to work?
 
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RDKirk

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OldWiseGuy

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The obvious question is: What kind of maintenance will they require?

Probably less than $350 per month worth. Insurance is cheaper as well.
The more obvious question is will this car meet the needs of my family.
 
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RDKirk

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What stands out to me is how crippling the cost of an education is in America, making everything else that much more difficult. That would seem like a logical starting point for making it easier for people to access good employment etc.

And let me state some personal figures on that:

When I went to the University of Oklahoma back in the early 70s, the tuition was $25 per credit hour. I was making $2.50 an hour working part time. So it took only thirty or forty hours of part time work (a week and a half to two weeks) to pay for a one-semester course. I could pay the full semester's tuition in half the semester with part-time work.

Today, that same university charges $400 per credit hour. No student is earning $40 an hour in part-time work (well, not in honest work). No student today can "pay as you go" by working the way I could.
 
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RDKirk

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Why would I have to feed a working person?

When Paul said, "He who is not willing to work shall not eat," the obvious implication is that they were feeding people who were willing to work, but whose work could not meet their needs.

When Jesus said "the poor will be with you always," He didn't even point out a requirement that they work.

Unlike what should have been the case under Mosaic Law, we are in a world that exploits human beings and their labor. There will always be people working like dogs and receiving subsistence or even less no matter how hard they work. That's the way the worldly system is designed.

Jesus knows that.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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When Paul said, "He who is not willing to work shall not eat," the obvious implication is that they were feeding people who were willing to work, but whose work could not meet their needs.

When Jesus said "the poor will be with you always," He didn't even point out a requirement that they work.

Unlike what should have been the case under Mosaic Law, we are in a world that exploits human beings and their labor. There will always be people working like dogs and receiving subsistence or even less no matter how hard they work. That's the way the worldly system is designed.

Jesus knows that.

I don't equate poor with starving.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Unlike what should have been the case under Mosaic Law, we are in a world that exploits human beings and their labor. There will always be people working like dogs and receiving subsistence or even less no matter how hard they work. That's the way the worldly system is designed.

I agree, and so we must admit that we are fighting losing battle.
 
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RDKirk

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I'm skeptical that many people with no education beyond high school do well. What kind of opportunities are open to them? And, there's further education that isn't college. What's the apprenticeship scene like over there? I never see that mentioned in this kind of discussion.

"Apprenticeships"--presuming you mean non-degree technical and vocational jobs--are essentially deliberately kept invisible to kids going through school. For the most party, they don't exist. None of their counselors will provide information on them. If asked, the counselors will say, "You don't want that."

A kid in his last year of high school with a "D" average will still be told by his counselors that he must go to college and get a degree in something, even if it will never pay off. That's the nature and state of the Education Industry in America--the government colludes with banks to make sure every possible individual starts out paying the banks many tens of thousands of dollars. This is basically racketeering.

There are a few "vocational high schools" in the country, but they are operated as programs for dummies and thugs rather than equally viable opportunities.

As for the idea that college is a waste of time, well... I certainly didn't find it to be. Having a degree definitely gave me an advantage in looking for work, even in roles where a degree wasn't absolutely required.

Yeah, but what if it were going to cost you $50,000 in continuing debt?

I see this kind of claim often, usually in reference to health care and education. But the main reason why it "won't" work in America usually seems to be that some people don't want the large changes involved, even if they would end up being positive. I'm always left at a loss as to why.

It's always a matter of whether the powerful will maintain their wealth.

"Follow the money" always leads to the answer to that question.
 
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