Orthodox and Catholic prayers are Biblical

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.

How is God conceiving a child with a human woman less blasphemous of a concept then God having a mother? Are you implying Mary is in fact not the Bride of God? God cannot break his own law, and therefore she was his bride.

Not only this but since Christ remains both Man and God, Mary is still his mother, and therefore still Mother of both Man and God, whilst also being the Bride of God.

I don't get it. In post #166, the Nestorian says the pre-incarnate Logos does not have a body, but the incarnate Logos does.

Yes, well said. Christ's human flesh did not come from heaven, but from St. Mary the Theotokos, His mother.

But then only a few posts later, in post #180, after having it pointed out to him that there was never a time when Christ was not God, the logic that leaped to is "So now you're saying that Mary is eternal?"

What the heck happened to the earlier understanding that the pre-incarnate Logos does not have a body? Where do you get the Theotokos is eternal if you already understand/understood that Christ was not eternally incarnate?

David Cabrera said:

I believe our co-user thinks a statement of God means it affects every member of the Trinity. This is not a correct understanding since Christ has done stuff only he did (not The Father and the Holy Spirit) like becoming Incarnate.

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If you want to say that Mary is the mother of Christ, then say that Mary is the mother of Christ. Don't say that "Mary is the mother of God," with the obvious (but false and heretical) implication that Mary is the mother of the Father.

dzheremi said:

I don't get it. In post #166, the Nestorian says the pre-incarnate Logos does not have a body, but the incarnate Logos does.

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Just because I deny monophysitism doesn't make me a Nestorian.

How is that the "obvious implication"?

David Cabrera said:

So Mary gave birth to a ghost? The body of Jesus but Christ entered on him?

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Logic failure!

☦Marius☦ said:

Imagine trying to confine God to your personal logic. Top reason I left protestantism. That kind of thinking is putting God in your personal box of what you would like him to be.

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Imagine humans who worship Mary and deny the Bible.

David Cabrera said:

Where? I don't see any.

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Yes that poster is making quite the straw man. On the other hand this topic does bring out the ones who hold to heresy and have gotten in CF under the radar so to speak

AMM said:

(1) "God sent his Son, born of a woman": can we not then say that this woman bore the Son of God? Isn't that the same thing that Paul writes?

(2) "And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43) Isn't "Lord" another title for God? So Elizabeth confesses that Mary is the "mother of my Lord"; how is that essentially different from if she said "mother of my God"?

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1. No, the Bible does not say this, nor should we.
2. No, Lord and Christ are not the same as God.

The Bible says that Christ died for sins. Also, the Bible tells us to celebrate the Lord's death, but not God's death, because God cannot die or be born.

Biblical Truth
Jesus Christ was born to Mary. Jesus Christ died on the cross. Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Heresy
God was born to Mary, God died on the cross, God rose from the dead.

Radagast said:

Just because I deny monophysitism doesn't make me a Nestorian.

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Hahahahaha.

The last kicks of a drowning man, ladies and gentlemen.

Spot the monophysitism here, friend:

PRIEST: Amen. Amen. Amen. I believe, I believe, I believe and confess to the last breath, that this is the life-giving body that your only-begotten Son, our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ took from our lady, the lady of us all, the holy Theotokos Saint Mary. He made it one with his divinity without mingling, without confusion and without alteration. He witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate. He gave it up for us upon the holy wood of the cross, of his own will, for us all. Truly I believe that his divinity parted not from his humanity for a single moment nor a twinkling of an eye. Given for us for salvation, remission of sins and eternal life to those who partake of him. I believe, I believe, I believe that this is so in truth. Amen.
DEACON: Amen. Amen. Amen. I believe, I believe, I believe that this is so in truth. Amen. Pray for us and for all the Christians who said to us concerning them, remember us in the house of the Lord. The peace and love of Jesus Christ be with you. Sing. Alleluia. Pray for the worthy communion of the immaculate heavenly, and holy mysteries. Lord have mercy.
CONGREGATION: Glory to you, O Lord, glory to You.

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Meanwhile, the Nestorianism is all over your posts in everything but name. What other term do we have for someone who proclaims that St. Mary the Theotokos is not the mother of God, but the mother of Christ, because God does not have a mother? This is literally the exact thing that the Nestorians say! You don't even have to take my word for it, let alone assume that I am saying it to slander you or to hide my own supposed support for 'monophysitism' (Eutyches was just as much of a heretic as Nestorius was, just in the other direction; our own OO councils which have nothing to do with any of you confirm this, as at Ephesus in 475, Dvin 506, and so on). Here is an interview with some of them in Lebanon from a few years ago, broadcast as part of LBC's "Sects of Lebanon" series:


Pay attention to what is said by Bp. Narsli De Baz, the head of the Assyrian Church of the East in Lebanon beginning at 1:32 above, where he says:

"At the time we were called Nestorians, because we saw Nestorius' belief to be a very true one. He says that Mary is the mother of Christ [...] in order to not confuse the Holy Trinity [...] if he says that she is the Mother of God, then she will be the mother of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit."

This is what you said in post #170, which you later said you didn't say! You wrote that you reject the Christological title Mother of God "Because the Triune God has no mother". That's literally the same as what the Nestorian bishop himself says in the interview above. You are a Nestorian, according to the Nestorians themselves.

All4Christ said:

Please see my edited post with the additional information. You are not understanding the terminology in the same way we do. Also, the “second” part you posted is not used by all churches. For example, my Church says “for you have borne the Savior of our Soul”. To discuss Hail Mary, we should use the commonality among all versions. See the part I added to my post above.

I don’t expect to convince you to call her that, but I would like to help clarify to others what is intended by those who do call her the Mother is God, etc.

Please read the context of the post, including the part that clarifies what we mean and the part that explains what we don’t believe.

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Why don't you post your version of "Hail Mary", so we can get on the same page?

David Cabrera said:

Where? I don't see any.

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Why would prayer to Mary be considered worship?

If I ask you to talk to my boss, I am talking to you, not my boss.
If you pray to Mary in heaven, then you are not praying to God in heaven.

The Psalmist declares in worship Psalm 73:25 Whom have I in heaven but you? The Hail Mary declares that you do have someone else in heaven. Someone more powerful than men and angels.

The OP said that such prayers are Biblical. But the Bible does not say that Mary can hear prayers all over the world (which is a unique quality of God) or that she has an intercessory ministry in heaven (which is a unique function of Christ). The nonbiblical elevation of Mary is actually a usurpation of Jesus Christ's role in heaven.

If you act as though Mary is worthy to universally hear your prayers and intercede for you in heaven, and that God has a special desire to respond to Mary's prayers, then you are worshiping her on God's level.

David Cabrera said:

Jesus is God.

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The Bible never says that God was born or that God died. There is a reason for that. If you can find this reason, then you will no longer pray to a woman.