Catechism book #2: Baptism and Regeneration

Not David · Jul 5, 2019

Howdy!

I'm still reading my catechism book to inform myself more before I join the Church, so I am planning to ask questions I have about my book. I believe the first thread based on that was
What did St. Gregory Palamas mean with this?:
What did St. Gregory Palamas mean with this?

I have also mentioned my book on the thread "Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?:
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?

My current question is based on this paragraph:
Through Holy Baptism, man is liberated completely from sin and the Devil. He receives fully within himself the grace of the Holy Spirit and is wholly restored as a creature made in the image of God. He returns to the state of man prior to the Fall, completely free to follow Christ or the Devil. Whether he will move towards attaining likeness with God (cf. Genesis. 1:26) depends on himself and his free will.
Cf. St Mark the Ascetic, On Holy Baptism, 2, SC 445.298-302

How is man completely free from sin if we keep being tempted and sin after Baptism?
Can man not follow Christ before baptism? Does man lose his fallen nature and doesn't that imply total depravity?

Thanks for your time.

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2019

your questions as I can answer

1. Adam and Eve were sinless, and they still followed the devil.

2. he can, but the Spirit moves him from without, not within.

3. we are clothed with Christ but still subject to the Fall until the Second Coming.

HTacianas · Jul 5, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Howdy!

I'm still reading my catechism book to inform myself more before I join the Church, so I am planning to ask questions I have about my book. I believe the first thread based on that was
What did St. Gregory Palamas mean with this?:
What did St. Gregory Palamas mean with this?

I have also mentioned my book on the thread "Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?:
Is Mary the Queen of Heaven?

My current question is based on this paragraph:
Through Holy Baptism, man is liberated completely from sin and the Devil. He receives fully within himself the grace of the Holy Spirit and is wholly restored as a creature made in the image of God. He returns to the state of man prior to the Fall, completely free to follow Christ or the Devil. Whether he will move towards attaining likeness with God (cf. Genesis. 1:26) depends on himself and his free will.
Cf. St Mark the Ascetic, On Holy Baptism, 2, SC 445.298-302

How is man completely free from sin if we keep being tempted and sin after Baptism?
Can man not follow Christ before baptism? Does man lose his fallen nature and doesn't that imply total depravity?

Thanks for your time.

To be "free of sin" in that case means freed from previous sin. As he also said, the baptized man is then free to refrain from sin (follow Christ) or to sin (follow Satan).

Baptism returns a man to the prefall state, but it is up to man to remain in that state.

Not David · Jul 5, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
your questions as I can answer

1. Adam and Eve were sinless, and they still followed the devil.

2. he can, but the Spirit moves him from without, not within.

3. we are clothed with Christ but still subject to the Fall until the Second Coming.

1. When does someone can remain "sinless" forever? Also if you get baptized and then sin, how do you come back to the sinless state?

2. What would be the goal of the Holy Spirit between "moving from without" and "within"?

3. What do you mean by "subject to the Fall"?

Not David · Jul 5, 2019

HTacianas said:
To be "free of sin" in that case means freed from previous sin. As he also said, the baptized man is then free to refrain from sin (follow Christ) or to sin (follow Satan).

Baptism returns a man to the prefall state, but it is up to man to remain in that state.

Can he return to the prefall state after sinning?

ArmyMatt · Jul 5, 2019

David Cabrera said:
1. When does someone can remain "sinless" forever? Also if you get baptized and then sin, how do you come back to the sinless state?

2. What would be the goal of the Holy Spirit between "moving from without" and "within"?

3. What do you mean by "subject to the Fall"?

1. when you attain theosis. and confession returns you to your baptismal purity.

2. in both cases it's salvation.

3. physical death.

HTacianas · Jul 6, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Can he return to the prefall state after sinning?

I don't know that it is ever said in so many words. Reconciliation is "the plank that saves after the shipwreck of faith" through sin.

In new testament times it wasn't. Mortal sin or apostasy were states a believer could not return from, see Hebrews 10:26 and 6:4. Later the Church allowed repentance for either.

Not David · Jul 9, 2019

Another thing I was thinking about: Baptism removes original sin, but do you get it back every time you sin?

ArmyMatt · Jul 9, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Another thing I was thinking about: Baptism removes original sin, but do you get it back every time you sin?

we don't believe in original sin that way.

Not David · Jul 9, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
we don't believe in original sin that way.

Father, what did I get wrong?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 9, 2019

"Original sin" with all the theological implications is a (Latin/Western) Catholic doctrine.

Orthodox tend to use the term "ancestral sin" to differentiate that our teaching on the sin of Adam and Eve is different.

ArmyMatt · Jul 9, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Father, what did I get wrong?

only Adam and Eve committed the original sin, since they are the ones who originally sinned.

Not David · Jul 9, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
only Adam and Eve committed the original sin, since they are the ones who originally sinned.

Don't we all inherit the Original Sin?

Not David · Jul 9, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
"Original sin" with all the theological implications is a (Latin/Western) Catholic doctrine.

Orthodox tend to use the term "ancestral sin" to differentiate that our teaching on the sin of Adam and Eve is different.

I agree, and I don't have a problem with ancestral sin being employed.

I was using my catechism book terminology:

"'The belief of the Orthodox Catholic Church is that original sin... is transmitted to all humans... even to our Lady Theotokos', so the All-holy Virgin, although free of any personal sin, was also born bearing original sin from which 'the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit... cleansed her and made her holy' on the day of the Annunciation."

St Nikodimus of the Holy Mountain, The Rudder [in Greek], 6th edn (Athens: Astir, 1957), p. 523, note 1; St John of Damascus, On the Dormition of the Mother of God, 1.3, PG 96.704A.

ArmyMatt · Jul 9, 2019

David Cabrera said:
Don't we all inherit the Original Sin?

no. we inherit its after effects.

Not David · Jul 10, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
no. we inherit its after effects.

So when we talk about "bearing Original Sin", what means are the effects?

ArmyMatt · Jul 10, 2019

David Cabrera said:
So when we talk about "bearing Original Sin", what means are the effects?

yes

Catechism book #2: Baptism and Regeneration

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