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Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
Interesting, though the Orthodox Church does not focus a lot on the "We deserve hell" idea.Yes we all deserve hell. Going to hell is a result of failure to unify with the trinity and the natural result. Unlike evangelicals we believe there is a chance after death for salvation. Also the circumstances of hell are very different. Rather then just a simple burning pit, it is the foreign holiness of God that is burning those unfortunate enough to not be in communion. Completely cut off from all live they are scorched by God's perfection. As for why we deserve it, we all fall short of being Christ like, with the exception of very few. We all choose to sin, we all choose to rebel.
Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
Read THE RIVER OF FIRE by Dr. Alexandre Kalimiros.Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
What do you feel this statement could be considered a Calvinist one?The line you mention is much more of a Calvinist, Augustinian one. (While there are scriptures that support the idea, the way it is used in casual conversation comes from the former mentioned tradition). The thread I posted a few days ago explains it. Augustine, Manichaeism and the Good
Lee writes: “But since, according to Augustine, God is good and he is the only ground of existence, then how can something evil come out of the good God? In the affirmation of a Trinitarian monism, Augustine is faced with the challenge of explaining the total goodness of the universe despite the presence of evil in it. To put it in Manichaean terms, Augustine must show that the universe is wholly beautiful.” (p.154)
Is the origin of evil, one’s voluntary defection from God? Or, is the origin of evil, God’s pre-determination that evil is a creation of God that is to be manifested, in order for God to display the sum total of His various attributes?
Lee writes: “In the preceding discussion, we have shown the first part of Manichaean influence on Augustine’s doctrine of predestination by demonstrating that the doctrine assumes a two-tiered framework of cosmic order, which is his response to the Manichaean view of the universe. While the Manichees believe that the universe is an admixture of both good and evil, Augustine thinks that it is good, therefore beautiful, as a whole.” (p.163)
So what should we say, it’s all good, because it comes from God?
Lee writes: “[Augustine] draws on the Manichees for insights of experience of personal evil, borrowing from them the double notion of ‘wickedness’ and ‘mortality,’ although he has substantially transformed these simplistic ideas into an elaborate theory that eventually does away with dualism.” (p.169)
Lee writes: “It is recognized that in Contra Fortunatum (392) Augustine, due to Fortunatus’ invocation of Pualine support for the notion of the inevitability of evil, is forced to focus on Paul’s notion of the flesh as an intrinsic principle rebellious to what is instituted by God.” (p.172)
What do you feel this statement could be considered a Calvinist one?
Thank you. I know you said you agreed with me, but I think you stated this so much more clearly. Even now after several years, I'm still in awe when I reflect on how differently I see God and our relationship with Him. But the old "we all 'deserve' hell" is part of a different mindset, and one I've left behind - that was only concerned with God measuring us as judge. I know we WILL BE judged, but that is not the primary light in which our relationship with Him exists. Thank God!Orthodoxy has changed how I view the Lord, and how I see His relationship with us.
Do we “deserve” hell? I will echo Anastasia’s response, which was beautifully stated. “Deserve” isn’t an Orthodox angle. That language is very Western along with “valid” and “satisfaction” and other terms we pretty much don’t use.
God created us all lovingly. He wants us to grow in love and become more like Him. Theosis was and is our destiny, but the Evil One created a sad detour. He created a road block, attempted a trap. But God ransomed is from Satans stupidity and hubris.
Saying humans “deserve” hell is like saying a person deserves to be in a car accident when they set out on the road or people deserve to get eaten by mountain lions when they go camping, or deserve to get shark-bites swimming in the ocean. Humans, without God, can’t find heaven just like a person will drown if not shown to swim, will crash without guidance in drivers training, will get lost in the woods with no navigation or map. It’s not so much about deserving punishment as it is NEEDING God. He is our spiritual navigation, teacher, guide, protector, and ultimately our final destination. Fact is, a ton of people ARE going to hell....not out of this preloaded destiny of Arthur Brown-like Fire, not because of a default planned punishment, but because they WILLFULLY don’t want to be taught, want to fly blind, turn inward, follow the WORLD, and reject the final destination.
Drowning happens when you go into the ocean alone diving off a gorge hating your swim teacher. You don’t deserve to drown, but you likely will.
I am sure that I do. I wouldn’t want to speak for others.Growing up Evangelical, I always heard that in sermons and Biblical studies. How does Orthodoxy view this statement?
Could an Eastern Orthodox state that the judicial view is simply an analogy of how God relates to us; but in reality the correct view was the Christus Victor?
Could an Eastern Orthodox state that the judicial view is simply an analogy of how God relates to us; but in reality the correct view was the Christus Victor?