What was Gods first thought?

I tend to think a little differently on this subject. I think the concept of God "existing outside of time" is nonsensical and on par with asking God to create a square-circle.

I think time isn't a thing. God created everything, but time isn't a thing, so it wasn't created by God. In fact, if you ask people when God created time, it usually will boil to time was created simultaneously with the first contingent thing God created. Why? Because at the moment God created something, that something had a beginning, and therefore was "inside time".

I think it's much more simple. I think time is just a measurement. It measures change and duration. Our experience of time may be subjective, may be manipulated, but at its core, time is just a measurement.

Therefore, if something exists, then time exists. And as God is eternal, I would say that time has always existed. But, I would make a distinction between what I call "measurable time" and "immeasurable time".

I would suggest that before God created something contingent, time was immeasurable. Just as you can never reach infinity into the future, you can likewise never reach infinity into the past. Therefore, before God created something that had a beginning, time would have been immeasurable as God existed as Trinity into eternity past.

As to the question of what God "did" before creating something finite, I would say that He was existing in perfect unity and relationship within Himself as the Triune God, fully satisfied.

SPF said:

I tend to think a little differently on this subject. I think the concept of God "existing outside of time" is nonsensical and on par with asking God to create a square-circle.

I think time isn't a thing. God created everything, but time isn't a thing, so it wasn't created by God. In fact, if you ask people when God created time, it usually will boil to time was created simultaneously with the first contingent thing God created. Why? Because at the moment God created something, that something had a beginning, and therefore was "inside time".

I think it's much more simple. I think time is just a measurement. It measures change and duration. Our experience of time may be subjective, may be manipulated, but at its core, time is just a measurement.

Therefore, if something exists, then time exists. And as God is eternal, I would say that time has always existed. But, I would make a distinction between what I call "measurable time" and "immeasurable time".

I would suggest that before God created something contingent, time was immeasurable. Just as you can never reach infinity into the future, you can likewise never reach infinity into the past. Therefore, before God created something that had a beginning, time would have been immeasurable as God existed as Trinity into eternity past.

As to the question of what God "did" before creating something finite, I would say that He was existing in perfect unity and relationship within Himself as the Triune God, fully satisfied.

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Well said. I agree.

Cement said:

This is mere speculation here but heres my thoughts and you can add in. In Genesis it starts with the saying In the Beginning God created. Now this is the account of the beginning of the creation of our world. What state was God in before he created the world? What was his first thought process if it were to be before the creation account? If Gods will always existed and he never changes then his thoughts were according to his will and he foreknew them when he created the spacetime matrix then he was at both ends of thinking and doing at the same time?

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Since God is timeless he does not have a first thought. His plans are eternal. He always thought to create us and to redeem us.

brightlights said:

Since God is timeless he does not have a first thought. His plans are eternal. He always thought to create us and to redeem us.

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I think the notion of God being "timeless" is nonsensical and breaks down when we really examine it. It's as if you're suggesting that all moments in time are "present" to God. If that were to be true, then Jesus is presently in Mary's womb, presently going through the agony of dying on the cross, and presently reigning on a redeemed and restored earth. It's illogical.

SPF said:

I tend to think a little differently on this subject.

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Some really smart and godly people have thought about this, you know.

SPF said:

I think the concept of God "existing outside of time" is nonsensical

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In that case, you have two options:

(a) God had a beginning in time (this is obviously heretical); or

(b) God existed for an infinite amount of time in the past. But then God must have waited an infinite amount of time before He created the universe (this is obviously nonsensical).

Neither option works.

SPF said:

I think the notion of God being "timeless" is nonsensical and breaks down when we really examine it. It's as if you're suggesting that all moments in time are "present" to God. If that were to be true, then Jesus is presently in Mary's womb, presently going through the agony of dying on the cross, and presently reigning on a redeemed and restored earth. It's illogical.

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Time is a creature of God. It serves God. God does not serve time nor is he bound by time. Every moment is present to God. All of the moments of Jesus' life on earth are equally present to God as this moment. Nothing is lost in the past with God and nothing is uncertain in the future with God.

SPF said:

I think the notion of God being "timeless" is nonsensical and breaks down when we really examine it. It's as if you're suggesting that all moments in time are "present" to God. If that were to be true, then Jesus is presently in Mary's womb, presently going through the agony of dying on the cross, and presently reigning on a redeemed and restored earth. It's illogical.

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You have just described a philosophical theory of time known as Eternalism. And no, it's not illogical.

Another way to think about it is this:

Time is a measurement of movement and change. To say that God exists within time is to say that God changes, which he does not. Since God is unchanging, he is necessarily timeless.

Radagast said:

In that case, you have two options:

(a) God had a beginning in time (this is obviously heretical); or

(b) God existed for an infinite amount of time in the past. But then God must have waited an infinite amount of time before He created the universe (this is obviously nonsensical).

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I would say my post #21 adequately answered both these "points", so I don't think you probably actually read it.

brightlights said:

Time is a creature of God. It serves God. God does not serve time nor is he bound by time. Every moment is present to God. All of the moments of Jesus' life on earth are equally present to God as this moment. Nothing is lost in the past with God and nothing is uncertain in the future with God.

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Yea, I think you're definitely wrong on that. I don't think Jesus is presently agonizing on the cross. He did it, past tense. It's done. I don't think Jesus is presently reigning on a redeemed and restored earth. That hasn't happened yet.

brightlights said:

Time is a measurement of movement and change. To say that God exists within time is to say that God changes, which he does not. Since God is unchanging, he is necessarily timeless.

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God's character is what is immutable and doesn't change.

Time wasn't created by God simply because time is not a thing. God created all things, time is not a thing. Time just measures change and duration.

SPF said:

As to the question of what God "did" before creating something finite, I would say that He was existing in perfect unity and relationship within Himself as the Triune God, fully satisfied.

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Or surrounded by completely different life previously created. Life that cheered His creation of this universe, life that rebelled. Many rooms in the mansion that is God.

Some people have trouble thinking of God as being outside our perceived universe or of time. Time is our concept. It need not be His. What we call time may be completely different in His 'heaven' or non existent.

timothyu said:

Or surrounded by completely different life previously created. Life that cheered His creation of this universe, life that rebelled. Many rooms in the mansion that is God.

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Your response doesn't work. I was addressing the question of what God did prior to creating something finite. Your response is that prior to God creating something finite he was surround by finite life? Please think about what you say before you type it.

timothyu said:

Some people have trouble thinking of God as being outside our perceived universe or of time. Time is our concept. It need not be His. What we call time may be completely different in His 'heaven' or non existent.

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God's eternality is certainly one of his incommunicable attributes, so we will more than likely always fall short in attempting to understand and explain it. However, I think the best possible answer is that time is not a thing to be created, but simply a measurement.

SPF said:

Your response is that prior to God creating something finite he was surround by finite life? Please think about what you say before you type it.

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We may be finite but I suggest you may need to consider we are not His first creations.

SPF said:

However, I think the best possible answer is that time is not a thing to be created, but simply a measurement.

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A human concept

How long is a piece of string?

timothyu said:

We may be finite but I suggest you may need to consider we are not His first creations.

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I don't recall saying I hadn't. I can't seem to figure what in the world your point is and how it has any relevance to anything I've said.

timothyu said:

A human concept

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Oh, and your view is a non-human concept?

God doesn't have successive thoughts. We do, because that is all our little minds can handle. God has the fullness of truth, the fullness of information, the knowledge of everything that can be known, in His mind at every moment.

PaulCyp1 said:

God doesn't have successive thoughts. We do, because that is all our little minds can handle. God has the fullness of truth, the fullness of information, the knowledge of everything that can be known, in His mind at every moment.

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Yet He does have successive actions as we can see in His interaction with His creation.

SPF said:

Oh, and your view is a non-human concept?

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That was the purpose of Jesus' teachings, yes. To give an alternative to human concepts.

pdudgeon said:

His first thought process would have been self awareness--I AM, because God's creative process begins with His thought, and everything that exists begins from that point.

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The Almighty has no beginning and no end