Why all people are not saved?

Carl Emerson · Jul 3, 2019

bling said:
God is all knowing, all powerful, all present, all benevolent. God is Just, fair, purpose driven.

Do you agree?
What other qualities do you see and give scripture?

What?

The money changers were in the Gentile worship area using their space. They were charging high rates.

Unless the Bible tells us we cannot say what the motive was, but Christ was constantly “teaching/ mentoring” others and did not just react without thinking.

But real change did in fact happen...now, the Temple is closed to those who would defile it and turn it into something it was never meant to be, as was originally the intent.

not all belong to Christ from before the foundations of the world.

Why did God make everyone belong to Christ from the beginning of time?[/QUOTE]

I appreciate your reply and want to respond point by point - i am just pressed for time - hopefully tomorrow.

Mathetes66 · Jul 3, 2019

Apparently the second page of my post got put in but not the first. I will post the first again.

"We attach different meanings to the term "requirement" then. For the Jews in GOK days, if they refused to get water baptized, they will be cut off from salvation. (Luke 7:29-30, Mark 16:16) That is what I mean by requirement. Its like if you are a Jew & you refused to be circumcised, you are cut off from the Jewish Nation. (Gen 17:9-14)

For you, its more of trying to obey what you think Christ is commanding you to do so. But I can understand where you are coming from since you don't distinguish between the GOK for the Jews & Paul's gospel for the Gentiles & lump them both together."

I need to make this clear to all reading these posts. The use of an abbreviation, GOK, appears misleading. GOK stands for the gospel of the kingdom & is being taught as 'another gospel' than the one that Paul preached.

What is not being said is that the GOK to a 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalist' is a grace plus works gospel (taught by Jesus & the 12) whereas another gospel, the gospel of Paul taught 'by grace through faith'. Yet Paul was taught the Gospel of Christ by Christ Himself! Christ would not contradict Himself or His purposed plan of salvation to reach the whole world with the one gospel.

Jesus is God! God does not teach more than one gospel nor that water baptism is necessary, a requirement for salvation for Jewish believers ONLY, like breathing is required to live.

Most all Christians from all the various branches teach ONE GOSPEL, the one taught by Jesus & the apostles & the prophets & it is the same gospel taught by Paul. There are not two gospels as even Paul himself said in Galatians 1.

This is dangerous teaching & Scripture says we are to warn others of those teaching more than one gospel. Paul states that this is so dangerous that those who persist in teaching more than one gospel are to be accursed! One can not get any plainer nor more serious than that.

This 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalim' teaching is a recent teaching that emerged in the the 1800's & is not the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

Here is a good website that shows what they teach & how they respond when corrected.

Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?

Continuing on, Peter never mentioned water baptism as necessary & required by your definition--for Jewish believers to be saved but is the same gospel & the same message for both Jewish believers & Gentile believers to believe in order to be saved.

Acts 15:7-11 Men & brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice AMONG US, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL & BELIEVE. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as HE DID UNTO US; 9And put NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, purifying their hearts by faith.

10Now therefore why TEMPT YE GOD, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But WE BELIEVE THAT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.

The Apostle Peter did NOT ADD that it was NECESSARY & REQUIRED that Jewish believers MUST be water baptized to be saved. He taught that there is one gospel message, the same message to Jewish believer as to Gentile believers: one must believe by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is to be NO DISTINCTION concerning how one is saved, between Jewish believers & Gentile believers.

And to make the point even stronger, even the sect of the Pharisees, WHICH BELIEVED, did NOT add, as Jewish believers, the absolute necessity the absolute requirement that the Gentile believers MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED in order to be saved. It isn't taught in Scripture.

The isolated quoting of Mark 16:16 for example of losing one's salvation if not water baptized, ignores the last half of the verse & also the context in which it is found!

Mark 16:14-20 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat & upbraided them with their unbelief & hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen. 15And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world & preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents & if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick & they shall recover. Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:6-11)

19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven & sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth & preached every where, the Lord working with them & confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

One will note that reading the full verse & in context does not teach that water baptism must be done to be saved but it does teach that one that is saved believes & is water baptized. The one that is damned is the one that does NOT BELIEVE. Scripture does not say & ADD the one that is damned is the one who does not believe AND is baptized.

As one can see, this poster believes in the ADDITION part above to Scripture & also that water baptism is NOT necessary for believers today to PRACTICE in light of Jesus' command to do so--because it is supposedly a different gospel than the one preached by Paul.

Also in context, one sees that as the gospel was being preached to every creature by all the apostles & all the disciples (whole book of Acts, Romans 16, etc.), the whole time 'the Lord was working with them & CONFIRMING THE WORD', this same one gospel message to be preached to every creature. It hasn't passed away. It is still being proclaimed: 'Repent & believe the gospel of the kingdom.' (Mark 1) Jesus again did NOT say, Repent, believe AND GET WATER BAPTIZED...

Jesus did NOT say, "Unless you repent AND GET WATER BAPTIZED, you will all likewise perish (Luke 9), when He was supposedly preaching another gospel, which you keep trying to teach was necessary, IN THE GOSPELS, for Jewish believers to do in order to be saved, a supposed Scriptural 'requirement'--which it is not.

Jesus is continuing to build His church, the one church, the one flock, the one congregation, the one dwelling place of God in the Spirit, the one Body of Christ.

"If you don't accept this, we can agree to disagree, as discussing this will be way off topic. Btw, you cannot control what people choose to respond to, on an Internet discussion, so there is no need to get agitated. You also ignored my point about Luke 7:29-30 but I give you the freedom to do that as this is the Internet. =)"

First of all, it is not off topic because the very post says: "The real purpose of water baptism in the NT"

Our discussion is DIRECTLY on the discussion of this thread.

Second, you accuse me of trying to 'CONTROL' what people choose to respond to as if I am 'agitated.'

Those are bearing false witness concerning me. I am not agitated nor trying to control people's responses but concerned when someone is teaching more than one gospel, contrary to Scripture. This is a very serious error.

That is why I am warning others, when more than one gospel is being taught & that the very gospel of Jesus & the apostles & the prophets (they spoke of the one gospel as well) IS the foundation of the church, even today, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, holding it all together--& as you state is a second gospel that has passed away.

Third, I did not ignore the passage. I did mention it but I deliberately did not address it in any detail--in your question in that post--to see how you would respond. And you responded like I thought you would.

And in Luke 7:29,30, it is again taken out of context & also ignores the rest of the testimony of Scripture, such as Acts 15. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.

Here is the isolated text you referred to, in its full context:

Luke 7:18-50 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art Thou He that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto Him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto Thee, saying, Art thou He that should come? or look we for another?

21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities & plagues, & of evil spirits & unto many that were blind He gave sight. 22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way & tell John what things ye have seen & heard;

how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, TO THE POOR THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED. 23And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me. Matthew 11:7-19; Luke 1:5-25; Luke 16:14-17)

24And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled & live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you & much more than a prophet.

27This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way before Thee.

28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

29And all the people that heard him & the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees & lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? And to what are they like? 32They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace & calling one to another & saying, We have piped unto you & ye have not danced; we have mourned to you & ye have not wept.

33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine & ye say, He hath a devil. 34The Son of man is come eating & drinking; & ye say, Behold a gluttonous man & a winebibber, a friend of publicans & sinners! 35But WISDOM is justified of all her children.

36And one of the Pharisees desired Him that He would eat with him. And He went into the Pharisee's house & sat down to meat. 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment & stood at His feet behind him weeping & began to wash his feet with tears & did wipe them with the hairs of her head & kissed His feet & anointed them with the ointment.

39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden Him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if He were a prophet, would have known who & what manner of woman this is that toucheth Him: for she is a sinner.

40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed 500 pence & the other fifty.

42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered & said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44And he turned to the woman & said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears & wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, ARE FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48And he said unto her, Thy sins ARE forgiven.

49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HAS SAVED THEE; GO IN PEACE.

In the context, the first section (vs 18-23) Jesus answers the disciples of John & in the context says that the gospel is preached to the poor. Nowhere there does Jesus, in preaching the gospel & healing Jewish people, state the baptism of John nor Jesus & His disciples baptizing people who believed in Jesus as NECESSARY AS A REQUIREMENT (according to your definition) TO BE SAVED FOR JEWISH PEOPLE.

In the next part of the context (vss 24-28), Jesus describes the ministry of John the Baptist, its purpose & who he is. Again no mention of John's baptism as necessary, as a requirement for Jewish believers in the Messiah--must do--in order to be saved. If it was vital for their salvation, Jesus would have taught so in both of these contextual sections.

John preached faith in the Messiah, predicted to come & now had come. He prepared the way of YHWH, which is Jesus, for the people to believe in Him. His was a message of preparation for the Jewish people, to prepare their hearts to believe in the Messiah for forgiveness & salvation.

Now we come to the isolated verses--you say--proves that John's baptism was necessary, was required, to save Jewish believers & without it, they could not be saved. But they are in a section of the context that goes from vs 29 to 35, so I will address this immediate context.

Simply reading what the Scripture actually SAYS, it says that all those in the crowd, including publicans, that had been baptized with the baptism of John JUSTIFIED GOD. It does NOT say, justified BY GOD, which directly has to do with salvation.

In CONTEXT, these Jewish people listening TO JESUS TEACHING about John & the purpose of his ministry. They were AGREEING with Jesus' teaching & thus JUSTIFIED GOD, that this ministry of John was confirming God's righteous message through him.

Again no mention--in this contextual section--is made that John's baptism or even Jesus' disciples water baptizing Jews is necessary, is a vital requirement, for them to be saved & without it they could not be saved.

And in vs 30, it DOES NOT SAY that the Pharisees & the lawyers were not saved because they rejected John's baptism, but that they rejected the counsel of God against themselves, that pointed to the Messiah being the the Savior of the world & that belief in Him saves them.

John the Baptist warned them at that time, when they refused to be baptized by him, of fleeing from the wrath of God that would come for rejecting his MESSAGE that prepared people to meet their God & turn to Him to be saved & forgiven of their sins.

They were ALREADY LOST, so it wasn't a matter of losing their salvation if they didn't receive John's baptism, because they had no salvation with which to begin!

And later in Matt 23, Jesus then warns them that after 2 years of ministering with John the Baptist gone, they were now at the point of not escaping the wrath of God coming. They had further progressed in their UNBELIEF.

And the final section of the context in Luke 7 is that of the woman who anointed Jesus' with the precious ointment, cleaning his feet with her tears & hair. This is an example of such humility that is rare. She apparently was one that was not of the Jewish crowd that had received John's baptism but someone new.

Again it has much to teach us but again, Jesus never required this Jewish woman to be water baptized in order to be saved. But what did save this Jewish woman IN THE GOSPELS? It was her great love & humility & her faith in Jesus that saved this woman. She loved Jesus. She served Jesus. She truly anointed Him as the Messiah & in anticipation of Christ's coming death. Her faith in Jesus is what saved her not any water baptism, as Jesus directly said.

And he said unto her, "Thy sins ARE forgiven." And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, "Thy faith has saved thee, GO in peace."

Jesus did not say, Go & be baptized in water. He said it was her faith that saved her & because of her love for Jesus, willing to receive the ridicule of others for what she did, her sins, which were many, WERE FORGIVEN by Christ Himself.

bling · Jul 3, 2019

lsume said:
That didn’t mean that everyone is going to be happy.

not sure what you are saying?
Godly type Love desires everyone else to be happy and Loved.
What keeps them from being happy?

bling · Jul 3, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
He didn't "make everyone belong to Christ".. Hence why not everyone is saved.

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster."

Two things here. First, the righteous anger of our Lord and Savior was not a reaction without thought, and I never indicated it was. According to scripture He had plenty of time to sit and make the knots in that rope... That's some well planned, well thought out righteous anger.

And there is absolutely no need to guess why Jesus did what He did in driving out the money changers. The Bible tells you why, in Jesus's own words...

You may appreciate reading the Bible on this topic.

As for making the Temple of God into a den of thieves, I think 3.00 for a box of cookies, not one dime of which benefits or forwards our faith, could definitely be argued as such in the girls scouts analogy..

All the extra cookie money goes toward supporting the girl scouts not to the pockets of some thieves.

The use of righteous anger benefits lots of people.

bling · Jul 3, 2019

Dave L said:
You can hate your family and treat them with love at the same time.

We are not just to “treat them with Love”, but truly Love them and truly hate them.

We need to go back to the statement that got the discussion on hate start, you said: Hate is the exact opposite of love. You cannot know one without the other.

The thing is: all mature adults know hate, because as nonbelievers they have all “hated” God, but that does not explain how God can not save some when He could easily save them and still be omnibenevolent?

lsume · Jul 3, 2019

bling said:
not sure what you are saying?
Godly type Love desires everyone else to be happy and Loved.
What keeps them from being happy?

Dan.12

[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hazelelponi · Jul 3, 2019

bling said:
All the extra cookie money goes toward supporting the girl scouts not to the pockets of some thieves.

The use of righteous anger benefits lots of people.

you really should read the Bible on the passages.. your obviously not understanding the situation.

Those men were engaging in commerce for necessary temple business - they stole nothing, it was normal business, just buying and selling of animals for sacrifice, and exchanging currencies so people could pay their necessary Temple taxes.

Jesus said, after driving them out or as He was driving out all those who had engaged in commerce, both the buyers as well as the sellers, and over turning the tables etc. He said:

"It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you are making it into den of thieves."

This was regular Temple stuff.. not like girl scout cookies which doesn't even benefit the church. These men weren't actually stealing anything, and they had taken advantage of no one, yet it offended Jesus because it defiled both in the physical sense I'm sure, and in the spiritual.

What Jesus did, and what He does, is cleanse what has been defiled, or what is defiling. He turns the uncircumcised into circumcision. He circumcises the hearts of His people.

Never again can that which is defiling enter into the Temple of God.. the Temple's been cleansed, torn down, and rebuilt with hands that aren't human, and the wicked/those who dont belong to Christ, simply no longer have access...

But nevermind.. this entire conversation has been for naught if you see no wrong in someone using church grounds to fund-raise so they can support a non-church organisation. I was trying to make a point that no one understood.

I mean seriously, if Jesus thought it was bad 2,000 years ago, what on earth do people think He would say now?

Dave L · Jul 4, 2019

bling said:
We are not just to “treat them with Love”, but truly Love them and truly hate them.

We need to go back to the statement that got the discussion on hate start, you said: Hate is the exact opposite of love. You cannot know one without the other.

The thing is: all mature adults know hate, because as nonbelievers they have all “hated” God, but that does not explain how God can not save some when He could easily save them and still be omnibenevolent?

You confuse emotion with duty. There is more value in loving someone you hate, than in loving someone you love.

bling · Jul 4, 2019

Mathetes66 said:
Thanks for your response back. I appreciate that. And I concur, there are some things with which we agree. But I am still confused as to what you mean by the very title of this thread & so far you haven't addressed this, for myself & others, so we can respond more accurately. I would appreciate if you would address this issue.

“Why all people are not saved?” is asking the question “Why does God not save all people when He could and it would be consistent with His being omnibenevolent?”

This seems to be how everyone else interpreted the statement as a question.

Mathetes66 said:
And I am confused that you also haven't IDENTIFIED who these people are who YOU SAY make this supposed 'arbitrary selection method.' 'These people' are often used by others in their argument--no matter the topic--& yet are very vague as to identity & almost a straw man argument over a confusing unidentified group that supposedly makes this arbitrary selection. Could you please identify who this group is that does this? Thanks.

For one, but not the only one, I have addressed on this forum: Dave L post 6 “So I believe he arbitrarily chose as many to magnify his mercy as the revelation of his wrath would allow”.

I will say most with similar ideas say: “It was not arbitrary” but go on to describing the selection as being arbitrary, by standing by the idea, there is no difference, prior to God provided some spiritual attribute given, between the elect and the non-elect.

It seems to be prevalent in the “hyper” Calvinistic group, but I am just wanting ideas and support for God not saving everyone.

Mathetes66 said:
You say you agree with me on God's harmonizing character, yet in your conclusion you go right back to only mentioning God's love & charity. You actually use the other aspects of God's character as being the inconsistent part of God.

Would you show me how I am using God’s other Characteristics as being inconsistent with God’s Love?

The concept of: God selecting only some when all others not selected at the time have no , is inconsistent with God’s Love and justice.

Mathetes66 said:
I already pointed out in many Scriptures that there IS NO inconsistency in God's character nor in HIS SELECTION. It is not man's selection, it is God's & God is not inconsistent in either His harmonized character nor in His selection process.

You said: “God has already answered it” and then listed scriptures which I will address individually because they do not say “How or why” God made His salvation selections.

Romans 9:12-14 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not!

First off: you need to read my post 35 on Ro. 9 and I can give you more if you like.

Specific to Jacob and Esau:

When Deity uses the word “hate” it is not used to be the opposite of Love, since Jesus tells us to both Love and Hate our family.

A newborn comes forth with a genetic disposition which God would know before birth and as we can see Esau had a disposition God could not work with, but God could work with Jacob’s disposition.

How do you know Esau went to hell, since the Bible does not tell us? Jacob and his mother were extremely evil people to begin with: they took advantage of both Esau and Isaac lying to Isaac, stealing big time from Esau, can you imagine how they would treat non-family members? Esau did nothing wrong to Jacob, Isaac (which nothing bad is said of him) seemed to Love/like Esau more than Jacob and Esau loved and respected Isaac (would not kill Jacob until Isaac died).

Yes, Esau was planning to kill the evil disgraceful Jacob who hurt him and his father, but later repented, forgave Jacob and befriended him by having him live next to him. Esau did some stupid stuff and was a short time thinker, but this was before the Law, so it is hard to say what sinning he did.

2 Chron 19:7 And now, may the fear of the LORD be upon you. Be careful what you do, for with the LORD our God there is NO injustice, partiality, or bribery."

Right! God’s actions as it relates to man’s salvation will be totally just, without partiality and righteous, so it would not be possible for God to treat two very similar humans differently as it related to the all-important salvation issue. Providing all mature adults with the same opportunity to accept or reject God’s charity and leaving the acceptance up to the free will choice of the individual would provide justice and fairness.

Job 34:10 "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wrong, and for the Almighty to act unjustly."

Same as above.

Psalm 92:15 "...proclaim, "The LORD is upright; He is my rock & in Him there is no unrighteousness."

Same as above.

Job 40:8 Would you really annul My justice? Would you condemn Me to justify yourself?

Same as above.

Psalm 51:4 Against You, You only, have I sinned &done what is evil in Your sight, so that You may be proved right when You speak & blameless when You judge.

OK

Romans 7:7,13 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The Law is wonderful and extremely helpful in expanding the ways we do sin, but all mature adults do stuff which hurts others (sin) which weighs on their conscience at least to begin with. People will try lots of ways to relieve this burden with God being the only solution.

Deut 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth & without iniquity, just & right is He.

Right!

Psalm 7:11 God judges the righteous & God is ANGRY with the wicked EVERY day.

OK.

Romans 3:3-5 Certainly not! Let God be true & every man a liar. As it is written: “So that You may be proved right when You speak & victorious when You judge.”But if our unrighteousness highlights the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict His wrath on us? I am speaking in human terms. Certainly not! In that case, how could God judge the world?

God is not causing or responsible for people’s unrighteousness in order to show how righteous God is even it that happens.

Again, these scriptures do not explain why God selects some and not all.

It also does not show how God’s righteousness, justice, anger, wrath and holiness has to overrule His Love to keep God from saving everyone.

Mathetes66 said:
It also appears you are teaching universalism to solve this 'strawman' argument of inconsistency that you have set up without defining the presuppositions, with which I have been asking. It appears you are testing the waters with a clever humanistic argument.

Universalism has been shown to be a false doctrine ever since the first century. This is is why you seem silent about the issue of God's judgment & wrath against unbelievers in casting them into hell (gehenna).

I do not believe in universalism, but believe in humans making the choice to just accept God’s charity which will include the Messiah. Those who reject to the point of never accepting God’s Love (charity, grace, mercy, and forgiveness) will experience God’s punishment (wrath / hell).

Mathetes66 said:
You state that "the person has to direct their God given faith toward a benevolent God."

First of all in almost every account of people being saved in the Bible, it is their faith in the Messiah that saves them, not God giving them faith.

Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, Your faith hath saved you..."
I Pet 1:9 ...obtaining the outcome of your faith, your souls' salvation...
I Pet 1:21 ...so your faith and hope are in God
2 Pet 1:5 ...make every effort to add to your faith
Rev 2:19 I have seen your love, your faith, your service, your patient endurance...
Eph 1:15 ...ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus

Some try to use, for example, I Cor 12:9 to say that God gives all a measure of faith. Yet the context shows clearly & the verse itself, that this is talking about believers, not unbelievers & the context is about spiritual gifts given to believers.

All mature adults trust (have faith) in someone and/or something. That “faith” is from God. To make this common faith into a saving faith, they have to direct their faith toward Deity (God/Christ).

The nonbelieving sinner has to have faith (trust) in their hated enemy’s (God’s) pure undeserving charity, which can be seen in Christ if they can accept what Christ did.

Mathetes66 said:
So, according to Scripture & the many verses I have already shown (I can show many more if needed), there is no 'apparent inconsistency' & there is nothing to resolve.

You have not given any “solution” to the apparent inconsistency of how God is omnibenevolent and yet does not save everyone. Just showing: God is just, God is righteous, God is holy, God is angry about sin and God can be wrathful toward the unrepentant sinner, does not explain the apparent inconsistency.

Yes, it is just, fair, righteous, and holy to send the unrepentant sinner to hell, but that is not the question. The “Love” in sending the unrepentant sinner to hell is in the help it provides to some who are still willing to accept God’s help to realize they are hell bound and thus be willing to turn to their enemy God for help. If the person being saved is not the result of their single autonomous free will choice to accept, then there is no benefit to send anyone to hell. God does not need hell to help Him save anyone or satisfy His wrath.

There has to be a reason for; why God saves some and does not save everyone, which an autonomous free will choice to humbly accept God charity answers.

bling · Jul 4, 2019

lsume said:
Dan.12

[2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Good

bling · Jul 4, 2019

Dave L said:
You confuse emotion with duty. There is more value in loving someone you hate, than in loving someone you love.

Stick to the subject:
The thing is: all mature adults know hate, because as nonbelievers they have all “hated” God, but that does not explain how God can not save some when He could easily save them and still be omnibenevolent?

Dave L · Jul 4, 2019

bling said:
Stick to the subject:
The thing is: all mature adults know hate, because as nonbelievers they have all “hated” God, but that does not explain how God can not save some when He could easily save them and still be omnibenevolent?

God hates sin and sinners. His love is the most glorious when he sets his love on those whom he hates, pays for their sins, and gives them a new nature he can actually love.

bling · Jul 4, 2019

Dave L said:
God hates sin and sinners. His love is the most glorious when he sets his love on those whom he hates, pays for their sins, and gives them a new nature he can actually love.

OK, but what keeps Him from doing that for everyone?

Dave L · Jul 5, 2019

bling said:
OK, but what keeps Him from doing that for everyone?

I don't know for sure why God doesn't save most. I think his glorious mercy arbitrarily saves and many as his glorious wrath will allow. We have a lopsided view of God if he saves all with no concept of his judgement, wrath, justice, righteousness etc.

Mathetes66 · Jul 5, 2019

“Why all people are not saved?” is asking the question “Why does God not save all people when He could & it would be consistent with His being omni-benevolent?”

Thank you for re-phrasing your question with more detail. First, God does not save all people. This is a given in Scripture.

Could God save all people? No. God can do all things EXCEPT what is contrary to His nature or what He has purposed or promised in His Word. The reason I say no is because He has already given revelation in Scripture that there is only one way to have a right relationship with Him & that is by God's mercy & grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ & belief in His death, burial & resurrection, dying in our place.

Could all people have the possibility of being saved? Yes. In Romans 1:16-32 God shows that the gospel, the good news concerning Jesus Christ, is the power of God for salvation to all who have faith, to the Jew first & also to the Gentile. God has made Himself known within the inner person & without each person in creation.

Yet people reject the inner witness of the Spirit & turn the truth of God into a lie, worshiping the creation rather than the Creator. What is seen in creation plainly shows the omnipotence & the Deity of the Creator.

You pose the question: "If the person being saved is NOT the result of their single autonomous free will choice to accept, then there is no benefit to send anyone to hell."

I do not see Scripture describing a 'single autonomous free will choice. But man was given the choice to either obey God or to reject obeying Him. When Adam sinned (read Rom 5:12-19), sin & death (both spiritual & physical) entered the world & passed on to all men.

God cannot save those who, using your own words 'exercises their single autonomous free will choice' & rejects God's love & Christ's sacrifice. God has done everything He can short of forcing someone to believe in Him. God is not going to do that. God goes until He knows there is no more remedy.

And who says there has to be a benefit or that someone must benefit when sending someone to hell? That is a just judgment & a righteous punishment & abhorrence & has nothing to do with benefit.

2 Chron 36:11-16 Zedekiah was 21 years old when he became king & he reigned in Jerusalem 11 years. And he did evil in the sight of the LORD his God & did not humble himself before Jeremiah the prophet, who spoke for the LORD.

13He also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God. But Zedekiah stiffened his neck & hardened his heart against turning to the LORD, the God of Israel. Furthermore, all the leaders of the priests & the people multiplied their unfaithful deeds, following all the abominations of the nations & they defiled the house of the LORD, which He had consecrated in Jerusalem.

15Time & again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people thru His messengers because He had compassion on them & His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words & scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.

Rev 2:20-23 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess & is teaching & seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality & to eat food sacrificed to idols. I gave her TIME TO REPENT, but she REFUSES TO REPENT OF HER SEXUAL IMMORALITY.

Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed & those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works & I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches mind & heart & I will give to each of you according to your works.

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done for My vineyard that I did not already do in it? Why, when I waited for it to yield good grapes, did it bring forth sour fruit?

Prov 29:1 A man who remains stiff-necked after much reproof will suddenly be shattered beyond recovery.

Jer 44:3-6 They provoked Me to anger by continuing to burn incense & serve other gods that neither they nor you nor your fathers ever knew. “Time & again I sent my servants, the prophets, to plead with them, ‘Don’t do these horrible things that I hate so much.’

But they did not listen or incline their ears; they did not turn from their wickedness or stop burning incense to other gods. Therefore My wrath & anger poured out & burned in the cities of Judah & in the streets of Jerusalem, so they have become the desolate ruin they are today.

Prov 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

Gen 18:20-32 Then the LORD said, “The outcry against Sodom & Gomorrah is great. Because their sin is so grievous, I will go down to see if their actions fully justify the outcry that has reached Me. If not, I will find out.” And the two men turned away & went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before YHWH.

23Abraham stepped forward & said, “Will You really sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are 50 righteous ones in the city? Will You really sweep it away & not spare the place for the sake of the 50 righteous ones who are there?

Far be it from You to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous & the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?” So YHWH replied, “If I find 50 righteous ones within the city of Sodom, on their account I will spare the whole place.”

27Then Abraham answered, “Now that I have ventured to speak to the Lord—though I am but dust & ashes—suppose the 50 righteous ones lack five. Will you destroy the whole city for the lack of five?” He replied, “If I find 45 there, I will not destroy it.”

29Once again Abraham spoke to YHWH, “Suppose 40 are found there?” He answered, “On account of the 40, I will not do it.” Then Abraham said, “May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak further. Suppose 30 are found there?” He answered, “If I find 30 there, I will not do it.”

31And Abraham said, “Now that I have ventured to speak to the Lord, suppose 20 are found there?” He replied, “On account of the 20, I will not destroy it.” ...Suppose 10 are found there?” And He answered, “On account of the 10, I will not destroy it.”

Exodus 20:4-7 You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the 3rd & 4th generations of those who hate Me, but showing loving devotion to a 1000 generations of those who love Me & keep My commandments.

I would agree with you concerning the hyper-Calvinistic group, who teach God saves only the elect & has destined others to hell, who have no chance to be saved. I do not believe this is taught in Scripture & have discussed this many times with Calvinists.

I believe Scripture teaches unlimited atonement. I believe everyone has a chance to be saved but some people choose to continue in their rebellion against the Lord & harden their hearts & refuse to repent & turn to Christ to save them & others as unbelievers seek after God & God rewards them & they find Him. Cornelius in Acts 10,11 shows this.

"All mature adults trust (have faith) in someone and/or something. That “faith” is from God. To make this common faith into a saving faith, they have to direct their faith toward Deity (God/Christ)."

As I previously showed in a multitude of verses, the faith unbelievers practice is NOT a faith from God because THAT faith is not IN GOD; it is their own (your words) 'single self-autonomous free will choice' to put their own faith in something other than God, that faith being primarily in themselves or some idol of some kind.

As for Jacob & Esau, you are ignorant of the Scriptures. You paint Esau as a saint while villifying Jacob, calling him 'extremely evil.' I do not see Scripture ever saying that. Yes, his very name Jacob meant deceiver & for the early part of his life he did deceive others yet God turned it into good. Jacob meant it for evil but God meant it to work out for His good & perfect will.

God then used others that deceived Jacob to show him his own errors & revealed Himself to Jacob. Jacob believed & had faith in the promises of God to his grandfather & father as to who the promises were to go through & eventually be fulfilled. God told him it would be through him & not the eldest son, Esau. And here is why.

You state: "How do you know Esau went to hell, since the Bible does not tell us?" And: "Esau loved & respected Isaac." You also try to explain away God's holy hatred & saying it isn't opposite of His love. God's hatred is nothing like man's hatred. You also pull verses out of a completely different context, with a different meaning & then try & apply that to the situation with Jacob & Esau.That's eisogetic not exegetic.

Jacob repented of his deceptive ways & trusted in the Lord & the Lord changed his name to Israel. God knew his heart & sincerity in his repentance & he was a man of faith in the promise of God & in the Seed promised, Christ. He wrestled with Christ!

You once again keep putting God's love as the epitome (the ultimate) of God's character, overriding all other Divine attributes by trying to explain this away, God being able to hate with a holy hatred at the same time that He is able to love & at the same time that He can impartially & justly cast people into hell because of their rejection, rebellion & hardness of heart in unbelief toward Him.

God hates BOTH the sin & the sinner who continues to practice evil & rejects God. They are many verses showing this & if necessary I can fill another post just with those verses. But here is the why of the statement, 'Jacob I loved but Esau I hated' that it is true & the revelation of God.

The Bible tells us Esau went to hell because he was 'godless' & profane. He married heathen, unbelieving wives, contrary to his father's wishes & led to grieving them & them despairing even of life, due to their unbelieving ways & rejecting the living God & worshipping idols.

He chose the gods of the Canaanites rather than the God of his fathers. Jacob did not do this. (to be continued)

Mathetes66 · Jul 5, 2019

Barnes Notes on the Bible:
As Esau - It is clearly implied here that Esau sustained the character of a fornicator &a profane person. The former appellation is probably given to him to denote his licentiousness shown by his marrying many wives, & particularly foreigners, or the daughters of Canaan: see Genesis 36:2 & the whole chapter (shows from Esau came many nations that came against Israel).

Compare Gen 26:34-35. "When Esau was 40 years old, he took as his wives Judith daughter of Beeri the Hittite & Basemath daughter of Elon the Hittite. And they brought GRIEF to Isaac & Rebekah."

Esau married two Hittite women, people who did not follow God. The Hittites are descendants of Heth, the son of Canaan. So Esau's first two wives were Canaanites. They were a constant irritation to his parents. So when it was time for Jacob to marry, Rebekah insisted that Jacob go back to her own people to find a wife.

"And Rebekah said to Isaac, "I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life be to me?"" (Genesis 27:46). This also took Jacob away from Esau & his pledge to murder Jacob after Isaac died.

The Jewish writers abundantly declare that that was Esau's character in the Targums: a murderer in heart, a fornicator with foreign wives & a profane, godless man.

Esau had no faith in God & rejected & did not believe in the inheritance of God & the promises of the Abrahamic covenant & the promise of 'THE SEED (singular--read Gal 3). Abraham did. Isaac did. Jacob did.

That was his birthright--to be the one chosen to fulfill God's promise of the Seed coming through him. But he rejected that for just a single meal, willing to toss it aside & treat it & God as unholy & treated it as profane & common, not sacred & set apart for God's service & worship.

Make note of this also: before Jacob & his mother deceived Isaac, ESAU ALREADY SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT TO JACOB, giving it away to him; all for the lust of the flesh for one single meal & having no regard for it. And what Jacob sought from his father was 'the blessing.'

Heb 12:14-17 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone AND to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble & by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless (profane) person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Ellicott's Commentary:
Who for one morsel of meat.--Better, who for one meal sold his own birthright (Gen 25:29-34). We cannot suppose that the writer has in thought the material rights of the firstborn, such as his claim on pre-eminence & possibly (see Deut 21:17), on a larger share of his father's possessions.

Tradition relates that, up to the time of Aaron, priestly functions were discharged by each firstborn son (comp. Numbers 3:5-12) & to the line of the firstborn would seem to belong that "blessing of Abraham" (Gen 28:4) which every one who shared Abraham's FAITH would earnestly desire to possess. Heb 12:14,15 comes from Deut 29:18-20.

Deut 29:18-20 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go & worship the gods of those nations.

Make sure there is no root among you that bears such poisonous & bitter fruit, because when such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing ON HIMSELF, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the STUBBORNNESS of my own heart.’

This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. YHWH will NEVER BE WILLING TO FORGIVE HIM. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse written in this book will fall upon him. The LORD will BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM UNDER HEAVEN.

Exodus 32:32-34 But now, please forgive their sin--but if NOT, then blot me out of the book you have written." YHWH said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me--that person I will wipe out of My book.

Psalm 69:28 May they be erased from the book of life & not listed with the righteous.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations; You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out (erased) their name forever & ever.

Deut 29:24,25 All the nations will ask, ‘WHY has the LORD done this to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?’ And the people will answer, ‘It is because they ABANDONED THE COVENANT OF THE LORD, THE GOD OF THEIR FATHERS...

And if you try to explain away God's love for Jacob & His hatred of Esau, the Scriptures have multiple witnesses concerning the truth of this to show otherwise by God Himself.

Malachi 1:1-4 This is an oracle, the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi: “I have always loved you,” says the LORD. But you retort, “Really? How have you loved us?” And the LORD replies, “This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but Esau I have hated & I have made his mountains a wasteland & left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Esau’s descendants in Edom may say, “We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins.” But the LORD of Heaven’s Armies replies, “They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as ‘The Land of Wickedness’ & their people will be called ‘The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.’ (see also Ezek 25:13)

Isaiah 34:5 When My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens, then it will come down upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Jer 49:8 Turn & run! Lie low, O residents of Dedan, for I will bring disaster on Esau at the time I punish him.

Lam 4:22 O Daughter of Zion, your punishment is complete; He will not prolong your exile. But He will punish your iniquity, O Daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins.

Obadiah 1:1-14 (only show vs 10,11 due to length) ...Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame & cut off forever. On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth & foreigners entered his gate & cast lots for Jerusalem, you were just like one of them.

Daniel 12:1,2 But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame & everlasting ABHORRENCE.

Isaiah 66:24 And they have gone forth & looked on the carcases of the men WHO ARE TRANSGRESSING AGAINST ME, for their worm dieth not & their fire is not quenched & they have been an ABHORRENCE [same word as in Dan 12:2] to all flesh!

In John 3:16 God can love someone unconditionally & love the world so much that He gave His only Son to die for them, so that by believing in Him they may not perish, BUT John 3:18-21 is just as true as well as vs 36 AT THE SAME TIME. These verses explain how & why God saves some & rejects others.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

The many verses concerning Jacob being saved while Esau being godless plainly show the why & how God made His salvation selections.

"God’s actions as it relates to man’s salvation will be totally just, without partiality & righteous, so it would not be possible for God to treat two very similar humans differently as it related to the all-important salvation issue."

These many verses show precisely why your premise above is false! It IS POSSIBLE for God to treat two very similar humans DIFFERENTLY as it related to the all important salvation issue. God chooses all throughout Scripture on the basis of those who believe & those who don't; those who put their trust in Christ & those who don't; those who repent & those who don't; those who trust in the promises of God & those who don't, those who follow Christ & those who don't, those who accept Christ & those who reject Christ, etc.

"A newborn comes forth with a genetic disposition which God would know before birth and as we can see Esau had a disposition God could not work with, but God could work with Jacob’s disposition."

God's choice had NOTHING to do with any genetic disposition! But it had to do with Esau being godless, faithless by his choice vs. Jacob's choice to repent & do what is right & godly & putting his faith in the God of his fathers & in the promises in the Abrahamic covenant, which he earnestly sought, seeing it as vitally important. God knew their hearts not their genetics!

Jer 17:10 “I the LORD search the heart & test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Heb 4:1-3,11-13 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest...’”

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living & active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul & of spirit, of joints & of marrow & discerning the thoughts & intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked & exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Thanks for clarifying that you don't believe in universalism & that human choices to either accept salvation in Christ or reject it, will determine whether they receive eternal life or eternal punishment & abhorrence.

"You have not given any “solution” to the apparent inconsistency of how God is omnibenevolent & yet does not save everyone. Just showing: God is just, God is righteous, God is holy, God is angry about sin & God can be wrathful toward the unrepentant sinner, does not explain the apparent inconsistency."

Just because I am loving, does not mean I marry everyone I love.

"Yes, it is just, fair, righteous & holy to send the unrepentant sinner to hell, but that is not the question. The “Love” in sending the unrepentant sinner to hell is in the help it provides to some who are still willing to accept God’s help to realize they are hell bound & thus be willing to turn to their enemy God for help."

It is not God's love that sends someone to hell; it is the person's rejection of God's love & God's righteous justice that brings the sentence to bear. That is the how & why God makes this judicial selection. People are without excuse (Rom 1:20; 2:1; John 15:22; Micah 6:11; Jude 1:4, Luke 14:18, etc.)

Many unbelievers today would not find it a help to know their unbelief can lead to them going to hell. This often causes further alienation from God, seeing this as unjust & cruel, not loving.

And many today would NOT see that it is God's love that sends someone to hell. God doesn't wish anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. God desires all men to be saved & come to the acknowledging of the truth. It is the person's own choice to continue sinning, rejecting their Creator & rejecting Christ, refusing to repent & turn to Him to be saved & receive forgiveness of sins.

Ezek 18:10-13,20-32 Now suppose that man has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these things, though the father has done none of them: ‘Indeed, the son eats at the mountain& defiles his neighbor’s wife. He oppresses the poor & needy; he commits robbery & does not restore a pledge.

He lifts his eyes to idols; he commits abominations. He engages in usury
& takes excess interest.’ Will this son live? He will not! Since he has committed all these abominations, he will surely die; his blood will be on HIS OWN HEAD.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him & the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

21But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes & does what is just & right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. Do I take ANY PLEASURE in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Would I not prefer he turn from his ways & live?

24But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness & practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness & sin he has committed, he will die.

25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? When a righteous man turns from his righteousness & practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed & does what is just & right, he will save his life. Because he considered & turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die.

Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are My ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD.

Repent & turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed & fashion for yourselves a new heart & a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent & live!

lsume · Jul 5, 2019

bling said:
Stick to the subject:
The thing is: all mature adults know hate, because as nonbelievers they have all “hated” God, but that does not explain how God can not save some when He could easily save them and still be omnibenevolent?

The Apostle Paul addressed the very point you are trying to make. Will the pot ask The Potter why hast Thou Made me thus?

bling · Jul 5, 2019

Dave L said:
I don't know for sure why God doesn't save most. I think his glorious mercy arbitrarily saves and many as his glorious wrath will allow. We have a lopsided view of God if he saves all with no concept of his judgement, wrath, justice, righteousness etc.

The problem with an “arbitrary” selection is: it is not just (by the biblical definition of just), it shows God is not omnibenevolent, to be righteous it would have to be the right thing to do, and it makes God’s wrath against sinners random. This is not an easy “god” to Love.

True righteous justice would have God treating all humans equally in the areas that truly count. The whole letter of Romans is trying to resolve the Church in Rome’s division between many Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, they apparently were not fellowshipping each other meeting in separate house churches, where the Gentile felt they had not been treated equally by God when compared to the Jews. God had given the Jews a huge head start on Christianity, with the Old Testament, high moral requirement, education (Jews could read), close religious relationships, and lots of fulfilled promises. Paul spend a great deal of time showing and explaining to the Gentile Christians: when it comes to the all-important salvation requirement it is just as hard for the Jews to accept it as it is for the Gentiles to accept it.

Today, we see kids in the USA and all over the West having the opportunities all around them to learn about Christ and look at the Communist and Muslim countries as having a hard time finding out about Christ, so to us it appears God is not treating them equally, fairly and justly. The fact is Christianity is growing rapidly under sever persecution and those who become Christians in these repressed societies and committed to Christ, while many in the West joined a club, which they do not even attend. God judges the hearts of people and being totally just/fair will consider everything.

The bottom line is this:

Having God select only a few individuals from all virtually equally sinful individuals, when He could just as easily select all individuals is not just, righteous, or Loving. If mature adults have to accept God charity as charity which includes salvation than it is just, fair, holy, righteous and Loving on God’s part to condemn those who reject.

If we say: “But all mature adults do not have an equal opportunity to know to accept or reject God’s charity” which is true, yet we are not the judge of how these individuals will be Lovingly, righteously, and justly judged and it is our fault for not ceasing the privileged opportunity to teach them.

Dave L · Jul 5, 2019

bling said:
The problem with an “arbitrary” selection is: it is not just (by the biblical definition of just), it shows God is not omnibenevolent, to be righteous it would have to be the right thing to do, and it makes God’s wrath against sinners random. This is not an easy “god” to Love.

True righteous justice would have God treating all humans equally in the areas that truly count. The whole letter of Romans is trying to resolve the Church in Rome’s division between many Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians, they apparently were not fellowshipping each other meeting in separate house churches, where the Gentile felt they had not been treated equally by God when compared to the Jews. God had given the Jews a huge head start on Christianity, with the Old Testament, high moral requirement, education (Jews could read), close religious relationships, and lots of fulfilled promises. Paul spend a great deal of time showing and explaining to the Gentile Christians: when it comes to the all-important salvation requirement it is just as hard for the Jews to accept it as it is for the Gentiles to accept it.

Today, we see kids in the USA and all over the West having the opportunities all around them to learn about Christ and look at the Communist and Muslim countries as having a hard time finding out about Christ, so to us it appears God is not treating them equally, fairly and justly. The fact is Christianity is growing rapidly under sever persecution and those who become Christians in these repressed societies and committed to Christ, while many in the West joined a club, which they do not even attend. God judges the hearts of people and being totally just/fair will consider everything.

The bottom line is this:

Having God select only a few individuals from all virtually equally sinful individuals, when He could just as easily select all individuals is not just, righteous, or Loving. If mature adults have to accept God charity as charity which includes salvation than it is just, fair, holy, righteous and Loving on God’s part to condemn those who reject.

If we say: “But all mature adults do not have an equal opportunity to know to accept or reject God’s charity” which is true, yet we are not the judge of how these individuals will be Lovingly, righteously, and justly judged and it is our fault for not ceasing the privileged opportunity to teach them.

arbitrary = not a respecter of persons.

bling · Jul 5, 2019

Mathetes66 said:
Barnes Notes on the Bible:
As Esau - It is clearly implied here that Esau sustained the character of a fornicator &a profane person. The former appellation is probably given to him to denote his licentiousness shown by his marrying many wives, & particularly foreigners, or the daughters of Canaan: see Genesis 36:2 & the whole chapter (shows from Esau came many nations that came against Israel).

Compare Gen 26:34-35. "When Esau was 40 years old, he took as his wives Judith daughter of Beeri the Hittite & Basemath daughter of Elon the Hittite. And they brought GRIEF to Isaac & Rebekah."

Esau married two Hittite women, people who did not follow God. The Hittites are descendants of Heth, the son of Canaan. So Esau's first two wives were Canaanites. They were a constant irritation to his parents. So when it was time for Jacob to marry, Rebekah insisted that Jacob go back to her own people to find a wife.

"And Rebekah said to Isaac, "I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth; if Jacob takes a wife of the daughters of Heth, like these who are the daughters of the land, what good will my life be to me?"" (Genesis 27:46). This also took Jacob away from Esau & his pledge to murder Jacob after Isaac died.

The Jewish writers abundantly declare that that was Esau's character in the Targums: a murderer in heart, a fornicator with foreign wives & a profane, godless man.

Esau had no faith in God & rejected & did not believe in the inheritance of God & the promises of the Abrahamic covenant & the promise of 'THE SEED (singular--read Gal 3). Abraham did. Isaac did. Jacob did.

That was his birthright--to be the one chosen to fulfill God's promise of the Seed coming through him. But he rejected that for just a single meal, willing to toss it aside & treat it & God as unholy & treated it as profane & common, not sacred & set apart for God's service & worship.

Make note of this also: before Jacob & his mother deceived Isaac, ESAU ALREADY SOLD HIS BIRTHRIGHT TO JACOB, giving it away to him; all for the lust of the flesh for one single meal & having no regard for it. And what Jacob sought from his father was 'the blessing.'

Heb 12:14-17 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone AND to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble & by it many be defiled; that there be no immoral or godless (profane) person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Ellicott's Commentary:
Who for one morsel of meat.--Better, who for one meal sold his own birthright (Gen 25:29-34). We cannot suppose that the writer has in thought the material rights of the firstborn, such as his claim on pre-eminence & possibly (see Deut 21:17), on a larger share of his father's possessions.

Tradition relates that, up to the time of Aaron, priestly functions were discharged by each firstborn son (comp. Numbers 3:5-12) & to the line of the firstborn would seem to belong that "blessing of Abraham" (Gen 28:4) which every one who shared Abraham's FAITH would earnestly desire to possess. Heb 12:14,15 comes from Deut 29:18-20.

Deut 29:18-20 Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go & worship the gods of those nations.

Make sure there is no root among you that bears such poisonous & bitter fruit, because when such a person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing ON HIMSELF, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the STUBBORNNESS of my own heart.’

This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. YHWH will NEVER BE WILLING TO FORGIVE HIM. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse written in this book will fall upon him. The LORD will BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM UNDER HEAVEN.

Exodus 32:32-34 But now, please forgive their sin--but if NOT, then blot me out of the book you have written." YHWH said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me--that person I will wipe out of My book.

Psalm 69:28 May they be erased from the book of life & not listed with the righteous.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Psalm 9:5 You have rebuked the nations; You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out (erased) their name forever & ever.

Deut 29:24,25 All the nations will ask, ‘WHY has the LORD done this to this land? Why this great outburst of anger?’ And the people will answer, ‘It is because they ABANDONED THE COVENANT OF THE LORD, THE GOD OF THEIR FATHERS...

And if you try to explain away God's love for Jacob & His hatred of Esau, the Scriptures have multiple witnesses concerning the truth of this to show otherwise by God Himself.

Malachi 1:1-4 This is an oracle, the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi: “I have always loved you,” says the LORD. But you retort, “Really? How have you loved us?” And the LORD replies, “This is how I showed my love for you: I loved your ancestor Jacob, but Esau I have hated & I have made his mountains a wasteland & left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

Esau’s descendants in Edom may say, “We have been shattered, but we will rebuild the ruins.” But the LORD of Heaven’s Armies replies, “They may try to rebuild, but I will demolish them again. Their country will be known as ‘The Land of Wickedness’ & their people will be called ‘The People with Whom the LORD Is Forever Angry.’ (see also Ezek 25:13)

Isaiah 34:5 When My sword has drunk its fill in the heavens, then it will come down upon Edom, upon the people I have devoted to destruction.

Jer 49:8 Turn & run! Lie low, O residents of Dedan, for I will bring disaster on Esau at the time I punish him.

Lam 4:22 O Daughter of Zion, your punishment is complete; He will not prolong your exile. But He will punish your iniquity, O Daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins.

Obadiah 1:1-14 (only show vs 10,11 due to length) ...Because of the violence against your brother Jacob, you will be covered with shame & cut off forever. On the day you stood aloof while strangers carried off his wealth & foreigners entered his gate & cast lots for Jerusalem, you were just like one of them.

Daniel 12:1,2 But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame & everlasting ABHORRENCE.

Isaiah 66:24 And they have gone forth & looked on the carcases of the men WHO ARE TRANSGRESSING AGAINST ME, for their worm dieth not & their fire is not quenched & they have been an ABHORRENCE [same word as in Dan 12:2] to all flesh!

In John 3:16 God can love someone unconditionally & love the world so much that He gave His only Son to die for them, so that by believing in Him they may not perish, BUT John 3:18-21 is just as true as well as vs 36 AT THE SAME TIME. These verses explain how & why God saves some & rejects others.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”

The many verses concerning Jacob being saved while Esau being godless plainly show the why & how God made His salvation selections.

I see Esau being very gracious with His forgiving Jacob.

Yes, Esau had lots of problems and his descendants were a disaster, but Jacob started out evil and made a huge change in his life after leaving home and his descendants were mostly violently destroyed also.

The Bible does not tell us: “Esau went to hell” and after forgiving Jacob we do not know how much change took place with Esau. “Hating” someone like our parents does not mean we do not also Love them.

Mathetes66 said:
These many verses show precisely why your premise above is false! It IS POSSIBLE for God to treat two very similar humans DIFFERENTLY as it related to the all important salvation issue. God chooses all throughout Scripture on the basis of those who believe & those who don't; those who put their trust in Christ & those who don't; those who repent & those who don't; those who trust in the promises of God & those who don't, those who follow Christ & those who don't, those who accept Christ & those who reject Christ, etc.

The only thing I am really saying is: God can “hate” and Love Esau at the same time, like we are to Love and hate our families at the same time. God hating the fact He could not work with Esau or some other reason, does not mean Esau went to hell.

Mathetes66 said:
Jer 17:10 “I the LORD search the heart & test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

Heb 4:1-3,11-13 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest...’”

Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living & active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul & of spirit, of joints & of marrow & discerning the thoughts & intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked & exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Mathetes66 said:
Just because I am loving, does not mean I marry everyone I love.

We are talking about Godly type Love.

Mathetes66 said:
It is not God's love that sends someone to hell; it is the person's rejection of God's love & God's righteous justice that brings the sentence to bear. That is the how & why God makes this judicial selection. People are without excuse (Rom 1:20; 2:1; John 15:22; Micah 6:11; Jude 1:4, Luke 14:18, etc.)

Many unbelievers today would not find it a help to know their unbelief can lead to them going to hell. This often causes further alienation from God, seeing this as unjust & cruel, not loving.

And many today would NOT see that it is God's love that sends someone to hell. God doesn't wish anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance. God desires all men to be saved & come to the acknowledging of the truth. It is the person's own choice to continue sinning, rejecting their Creator & rejecting Christ, refusing to repent & turn to Him to be saved & receive forgiveness of sins.

I agree with the truism: “The person themselves caused them to go to hell”, but God’s Love is always there along with all His other characteristics.

Let me ask you this: If there was no hell but just nonexistence at death for humans not going to heaven, do you feel fewer people would decide to humble themselves to the point of accepting God’s pure charity and would sin seem less significant?

Mathetes66 said:
Ezek 18:10-13,20-32 Now suppose that man has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these things, though the father has done none of them: ‘Indeed, the son eats at the mountain& defiles his neighbor’s wife. He oppresses the poor & needy; he commits robbery & does not restore a pledge.

He lifts his eyes to idols; he commits abominations. He engages in usury
& takes excess interest.’ Will this son live? He will not! Since he has committed all these abominations, he will surely die; his blood will be on HIS OWN HEAD.

The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him & the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

21But if the wicked man turns from all the sins he has committed, keeps all My statutes & does what is just & right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. Because of the righteousness he has practiced, he will live. Do I take ANY PLEASURE in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Would I not prefer he turn from his ways & live?

24But when a righteous man turns from his righteousness & practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness & sin he has committed, he will die.

25Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? When a righteous man turns from his righteousness & practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed.

27But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed & does what is just & right, he will save his life. Because he considered & turned from all the transgressions he had committed, he will surely live; he will not die.

Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are My ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD.

Repent & turn from all your transgressions, so that your iniquity will not become your downfall. Cast away from yourselves all the transgressions you have committed & fashion for yourselves a new heart & a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent & live!

To believe in hell requires a believe in God and judgment, so the nonbeliever is moving forward. Hell is not something the believer needs to worry about, just the unbeliever, so the nonbeliever needs to become a believer and quit worrying about hell.

The nonbelievers I have studied with who have brought “hell” up as a concern, just opened the door to our study of God’s justice, Love, man’s objective, the significance of sin and trusting God.

You went on with some wonderful verses and the fact: “God take no pleasure in anyone’s death.” Shows God is not doing this to satisfy His wrath or get anything personal from it, so could God allow the sinner to go through all this for our sake?

Why all people are not saved?

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