The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Wrangler · Jul 4, 2019

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence.

Saint Steven said:
Isn't this contrary to Universalism?
I thought Universalism taught that hell is a corrective measure to restore all things in creation. It just isn't eternal.

Saying the 1st 6 days of Creation was good contradicts universalism in your view? Woman was created after these 6 days. Why not hell?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that hell is even bad. Like prison, it is unfortunate that they are needed but it is good place to hold those it is intended for.

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

Hillsage said:
Thanks brother. Now, who is going to teach WRANGLER that he is going to make all the Eternal Hellers think that all UR/UNI believers believe God doesn't punish sin at all, even when scripture plainly says he does? And He 'does so' for the same reason for both groups. He does the same for those who are being saved in this age according to 'HIS WILL', as he does for those in the next age, according to 'HIS WILL'. The purgative "consuming fire" which "God is", will cleanse all his creation, when sin and evil has fulfilled His omniscient reason for allowing every bit of it to begin with.

Dear Hillsage: The Lake of all lakes burns with theion rooted in Theos. Fire is the essential Centre of our Father, whether the Lake, or our God the consuming fire. I have absolute confidence His work shall be consummated in fullness with absolutely NOTHING unchanged and transformed.

Behold I make all new!

FineLinen · Jul 4, 2019

The 2nd Death

“Orthodox theology holds the second death to be a state of endless torment in which the sufferers are held forever in conscious being by a continuous act of Divine preservation, with the soul object of a punishment without end. This however would in no sense be death. The second death does not perpetuate the hopeless condition of the sinner to all eternity.

What the Holy Spirit means by ‘fire and brimstone’ is ‘divine purification,’ or a judgment fire which consumes all that is antagonistic to divine law and love.

Before the Great White Throne, that vast throng, their naked spirits conscious now of the blazing holiness of God, will be subjected to the process of the second death. What those processes are, their intensity and their duration, we are not told. They will suffice, however, not in themselves to perfect, but to bring those who suffer them to that agreement with the judgment upon sin which they effect, and through the cross finally to reconcile them to God (Col. 1:20), in a subjection where He will be ‘All in all.’ When that acquiescence in judgment upon sin is reached, and applied in soul and spirit, then will be possible the final victory over death. Hence it is written that when this subjection is reached, then and only then, ‘the last enemy, death, shall be destroyed.’ ” -A. E. Saxby

The Lake Of Fire

Brimstone= theion

Root of theion= Theos

Theion= the breath of Jehovah/ Theos

The Lake of Divine Fire

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Would "prepared" be the same as created? What exactly is "eternal fire"?
Or "age-during", if you prefer. Is that NOT hell?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where was the rich man in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
Would torment in the agony of fire be hell? (seems so)

Luke 16:23-24
In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me... because I am in agony in this fire.’

God resides in inapproachable fire, if I recall the Scriptures rightly. Is that Hell? I think not.

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Isn't this contrary to Universalism?
I thought Universalism taught that hell is a corrective measure to restore all things in creation. It just isn't eternal.

The whole trouble with "Hell" is that it is too theologically loaded. I believe God used fire as a cleansing and purifying agent, but I also don't believe it is Hell in the Eternal Conscious Torment sense.

Lazarus Short · Jul 4, 2019

Wrangler said:
Saying the 1st 6 days of Creation was good contradicts universalism in your view? Woman was created after these 6 days. Why not hell?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion that hell is even bad. Like prison, it is unfortunate that they are needed but it is good place to hold those it is intended for.

"Why not hell?" Simply because God never claims to have made it, unlike woman. Refer back to #1.

How do I come to the conclusion that hell is "even bad"? How can it be otherwise?

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
God resides in inapproachable fire, if I recall the Scriptures rightly. Is that Hell? I think not.

So, heaven is actually hell? (that wouldn't surprise me at this point)

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
The whole trouble with "Hell" is that it is too theologically loaded. I believe God used fire as a cleansing and purifying agent, but I also don't believe it is Hell in the Eternal Conscious Torment sense.

Hell is too theologically loaded?
Probably because it is loaded with theologians. -- lol

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life aurely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil.

Question: What is the source of human conscience? (the knowledge of good and evil)

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell.

True, but...

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man.

It also says this. (and more)

Ezekiel 28:13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
8. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings.

Matthew 25:41, 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell.

The Bible refers to hell without using the word. What is the Lake of Fire? What is the Abyss?

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:2-3
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

Saint Steven · Jul 4, 2019

Wrangler said:
Woman was created after these 6 days. Why not hell?

What are you saying about women? - lol

Lazarus Short · Jul 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Question: What is the source of human conscience? (the knowledge of good and evil)

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Answer: Naturally, the eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did that.

Lazarus Short · Jul 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
True, but...

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The thing is, I don't ID the Lake of Fire as being Hell, unlike a lot of people. I noted in my reading that the Bible does not either.

Lazarus Short · Jul 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
It also says this. (and more)

Ezekiel 28:13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

So it does, but if you read the entire thing, you will see that Eden is treated like any other country/nation that Tyre traded with. Easy - I didn't even need to crack my Bible for that one.

Lazarus Short · Jul 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Matthew 25:41, 46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed,
into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

OK, you've got me there...the one exception. I have duly noted it in an edit of my conclusions, but will let what I posted here stand. You have done me a service, thank you!

Lazarus Short · Jul 5, 2019

Saint Steven said:
The Bible refers to hell without using the word. What is the Lake of Fire? What is the Abyss?

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:2-3
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

The Lake of Fire is just that, not Hell. The Abyss is the Abyss, not Hell. Did you know that "hell" is not to be found in Latin, Greek or Hebrew? No, the word comes from the pagan word of ancient northern Europe, especially in the person of the Norse goddess Hel, and her afterlife realm of Helheim (House of Hel). "Hel" is found twice in the 1611 KJV, a very odd fact. "Hell" entered the English language about the same time as other Norse loanwords.

There is also the old custom of "helling" turnips, potatoes or whatever, by simply burying them. No fire was involved, and with that in mind, many people insist that Hell is simply the grave.

FineLinen · Jul 5, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
OK, you've got me there...the one exception. I have duly noted it in an edit of my conclusions, but will let what I posted here stand. You have done me a service, thank you!

Dear Laz: The fundamentalist is so predictable. God cannot reconcile the all because>>>

Matthew 25:46 declares there is "eternal punishment" for the goats. So Matthew 25 is the foundation for any attempt to grasp anything further.

Take 2 =

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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