Christians, War, and Violence

Dave L said:

He has different roles for all. Believers and unbelievers have different lots in life.

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The majority of police officers and members of the military are Christians, what are you doing to rescue your fellow believers from their errors?

Dave L said:

What makes you say this? How do you know?

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US demographics make it a certainty. Unless you’re going to start playing no true Christian.

Dave L said:

Read the Sermon on the Mount if you want the purest form of Christianity. Matthew chapters 5-7 = zero physical violence

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Those scriptures were written for people who, like the Pharisees, thought they could get to heaven by their own righteousness.
Matt5v20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

For those who quote Matt5, especially turning the other cheek etc, its notable that they always ignore the painful parts in Matt5.-
29“If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you;...….
30“If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you;...…..

If you believe that turning the other cheek is mandatory at all times, then so is bodily mutilation for failure.
As a proponent of such things, if you were being honest and not hypocritical, I expect you are in quite a sad state by now, blind and needing someone to use the keyboard for these posts.

Dave L said:

Really? Let's see your documentation.

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Here and here.

Dave L said:

I cant trust non Christians. so I'm placing you on ignore for now.

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Sorry that the facts are not to your liking.

Dave L said:

How do you balance living in a violent world with the teachings of Christ? For starters, I believe God is the same God of war as always. But the role of believers is different in the New Covenant. That is, we love our enemies, turn the other cheek when attacked. We do not resist violence but abandon it to the Lord who says vengeance belongs to him.

So I do not serve in the military or become a police officer whose life depends on doing the opposite of these. If an intruder tries to kill me or my family, I would rather we die upholding Jesus’ words than disobey only to suffer death from old age. Any alternative views on this?

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Yeah, though I haven't read the rest of the thread, so forgive me if someone else already pointed this out:

You're not a martyr just because you're a Christian and you're killed, so it would not be a good plan to let yourself and your family die at the hands of an intruder. Martyrs are killed for their faith, not for their possessions, so unless the intruder breaks in and says "Renounce Jesus or I'll kill you" or something, it'd be hard to imagine him killing you because of your religious identity. This definitely happens in other countries, but not so much in the United States, where the OP is based.

So that's a misguided view, to me. And the long tradition of warrior/soldier saints (St. Mina, St. George, St. Theodore of Shotep/Amir Tadros/Theodore Stratelates, etc.) shows that it has been accepted from a very early time that Christians may serve in the army, and, yes, even kill people in that role. It is not advisable that they should do so, but it is understood that it may happen. Canon 13 of the Basilian canons (4th century; notably, the first 13 are shared by the Egyptians and the Greeks in Egypt, pointing to a likely common origin in the saint's own writings) puts it this way:


So, it seems to me that fighting in war would be classified differently -- it's not the same as 'regular' murder, and yet the one who participates in it likely has blood on their hands, and hence there is the ecclesiatical penalty as given, which I will assume stood at the time. (I don't know about its status today, since canons are to be interpreted by the Church which receives them, and I took this particular translation from a larger piece on the topic of Christians and war on some kind of Eastern Orthodox website that seems to be overall advocating pacifism, though I am not Eastern Orthodox myself, so it's not my place to judge that either way.)

I believe, following this (since we share the same canon with the Greeks on this), that there may be some circumstances in which a Christian is allowed to engage in violence for some limited aim (I agree with the overall point of the piece that the only legitimate use of violence is in protecting the innocent and weak from harm), though my particular Church has never developed this stance into anything as advanced and complicated at the western/Catholic "Just War" theory. For the majority of the Church's existence in Egypt this would've been a moot point anyway, since Christians were not allowed to serve in the army of the Muslims, and the Muslim Arabs have been ruling Egypt for about 1,400 years now. Christians have allowed to serve in the army in Egypt for some time now (not exactly sure when the ban was lifted), but it's not an easy thing to do, and you could get killed for it:

Why Are Christian Soldiers in Egypt Harassed and Killed?

These men certainly are martyrs for their faith, even if the context in which they received their crowns is outwardly pretty deplorable (conscripts, trying to serve their country, shot dead by fanatical officers and then covered up as 'suicides' by the army). May their prayers be with us.

Dave L said:

You're missing the beauty of Christ's teaching on non-violence. I can uphold Jesus' word being a "human shield" just as he was, yet without violence. And Paul says it is better to die as a believer and go to heaven than remain here. I throw old age into the mix and say it is far better to die young upholding Christ's words, that to kill loosing my crown to die of old age. This would be true where any believer is involved.

The unbelievers suffer less in hell dying young and sinning less than if you were to intervene. Not only losing your own crown but heaping more suffering on them resulting from a long life.

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How does being a human shield keep your kids from being sold into sex trafficking? Again you can choose to be a mayrtr, but your kids should have their own free will. Maybe they don't want to be sex slaves?

GOD Shines Forth! said:

How did you jump to a "killing spree" from a discussion about self defense?

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Psalms 72:12-14
For he will deliver the needy who cry out,
the afflicted who have no one to help.
He will take pity on the weak and the needy
and save the needy from death.
He will rescue them from oppression and violence,
for precious is their blood in his sight.

i was referring to what happens in a loving heart when we take up evil!

Those who don't repent from taking up violence will in the end succumb to it. Sadly this does often lead to killing sprees.

Psalms 58:1-2
Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge people with equity?
No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.

Violence stands condemned in God's word but loving our enemy and praying for them even as they murder us is The Way Jesus teaches us.

Peace.

Jeshu said:

Psalms 72:12-14
For he will deliver the needy who cry out,
the afflicted who have no one to help.
He will take pity on the weak and the needy
and save the needy from death.
He will rescue them from oppression and violence,
for precious is their blood in his sight.

i was referring to what happens in a loving heart when we take up evil!

Those who don't repent from taking up violence will in the end succumb to it. Sadly this does often lead to killing sprees.

Psalms 58:1-2
Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge people with equity?
No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.

Violence stands condemned in God's word but loving our enemy and praying for them even as they murder us is The Way Jesus teaches us.

Peace.

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So let me get this straight... Are you saying that those who defend their families against a malicious attack are going to go on killing sprees if they don't repent?

nanookadenord said:

So let me get this straight... Are you saying that those who defend their families against a malicious attack are going to go on killing sprees if they don't repent?

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No i'm not saying that. i said that those who choose the way of violence instead of the protection of God will kill good life in their hearts and gain bad life.

Some people instead of repenting of their bad life succumb to it - and yes then we can get more fireworks!

W2L said:

It wasn't a literal sword. It refers to God's word I think. Jesus has a sword in his mouth (revelation 19:15) which symbolizes Gods word, imo.

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Makes sense, but it does say "sword", instead of - for instance - "word" or "message". Coincidence??

Yytz6 said:

Makes sense, but it does say "sword", instead of - for instance - "word" or "message". Coincidence??

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We cant turn spiritual warfare into carnal.

2 Corinthians 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not [a]carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,

Dave L said:

So I do not serve in the military or become a police officer whose life depends on doing the opposite of these. If an intruder tries to kill me or my family, I would rather we die upholding Jesus’ words than disobey only to suffer death from old age. Any alternative views on this?

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Dave I really can't see how you could have such an opinion in light of,

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. Romans 13: 1-5

sorry about that