Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Libertarian Free Will

Some are wicked to the very core in exceedingly hateful and Blasphemous towards God ways that no matter what circumstances they are provided, they are indeed Exalters of the Creation over the Creator... or as Romans 1:30 calls those Temple Prostitution, Self exalting types... “Arrogant God Haters”. They relate to Satan, by choice, instead of Jesus Christ, in there very heart and will to do so, without refrain or repentance. They will have been given every possible chance to respond to 2 Peter 3:9 by the time their feet hit the lake of fire.

IMO

You said God could ensure that they be saved. He can’t do that with libertarian free will in Molinism.

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Hammster said:
You said God could ensure that they be saved. He can’t do that with libertarian free will in Molinism.

God will not Save anyone who does not desire to be saved.

Repentance from self, that turns to Jesus Christ is a condition that all mankind is challenged to come to. 2 Peter 3:9

No repentance from self to Christ, no salvation.

The Proud and Arrogant would rather swim in the lake of fire than repent of their Arrogance and Malice towards Creation and the Creator.

Scripture says they are without excuse... (Romans 1:20) which means the burden of their condemnation is upon them and their Libertarian Free Will.

It means they rejected and abstained from the Draw Of God unto all mankind.

It means that God interceded in their lives in the Actualized universe and the Infinite Middle Knowledge Of The Creator. They Willed to perish, though they may not desire to perish. Their desire to blaspheme God in exaltation of themselves made them perpetually recalcitrant to the Love Of Jesus Christ.

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
God will not Save anyone who does not desire to be saved.

Grip Docility said:
but believe God can work with all things to ensure Bob and Jerry exist and come to salvation.

You can’t have it both ways.

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
It means they rejected and abstained from the Draw Of God unto all mankind.

If these people lived in different circumstances, is it possible they would be saved?

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Hammster said:
You can’t have it both ways.

In your example, Bob and Jerry both responded to Jesus Christ.

No contradiction. I was going off of your analogy.

Hammster said:
I am looking at it from His ability through the lens of Molinism.

Let’s say that Bob comes to Christ because of Jerry who comes to Christ because of John. Now in the other universe, Jerry isn’t even in existence. So what about Bob? Is he even in existence? And if so, if he doesn’t know John, will he be saved?

There are too many changing variables in Molinism, especially if there is libertarian free will.

To which I responded...

Grip Docility said:
I respect this train of thought but believe God can work with all things to ensure Bob and Jerry exist and come to salvation.

As for life, it speaks of too many changing variables that Only God could comprehend and navigate.

We’re talking about God’s infinite ability.

Throw John in there, too.

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Hammster said:
If these people lived in different circumstances, is it possible they would be saved?

I don’t believe so. I believe that the unsaved, Of their own Libertarian Free Will, legitimately Choose to Hate God and hold to their arrogance.

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Ephesians 3:20

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
In your example, Bob and Jerry both responded to Jesus Christ.

No contradiction. I was going off of your analogy.

To which I responded...

Throw John in there, too.

How did God ensure any of them were saved? That was the premise I was challenging. That doesn’t fit with Molinism except that God chose to actualize that universe. It’s possible that in any other universe with libertarian free will under Molinism that none of them exist, or none of them get saved.

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
I don’t believe so. I believe that the unsaved, Of their own Libertarian Free Will, legitimately Choose to Hate God and hold to their arrogance.

So then there’s no need for middle knowledge.

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Hammster said:
How did God ensure any of them were saved? That was the premise I was challenging. That doesn’t fit with Molinism except that God chose to actualize that universe. It’s possible that in any other universe with libertarian free will under Molinism that none of them exist, or none of them get saved.

In the mind of man, Molinism can’t accomplish that all that have ever lived within “Middle Knowledge” are able to live in Actualization... without tampering with Liberation Free Will... but fortunately... neither Molinism nor man have to fully comprehend God’s ways for God to accomplish all Good possible within Libertarian Free Will Endowed Creation.

Grip Docility · Jul 4, 2019

Hammster said:
So then there’s no need for middle knowledge.

It is Middle Knowledge that proofs the burden of condemnation is on mankind, not God.

It is Middle Knowledge that preserves Libertarian Free Will and removes God of Evil by Proxy. IMO.

We can’t just fixate on the finished work, as we aren’t finished yet.

To theologically render things as complete would be to render them as if we were God.

We are mere mortals and it isn’t complete on our side, so we have no right... IMO... to render Theology as if anyone has been reprobated yet.

It’s genuinely happening even though God Knows ALL (Middle Knowledge Also) things. It’s genuine and Actualized, not over.

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
In the mind of man, Molinism can’t accomplish that all that have ever lived within “Middle Knowledge” are able to live in Actualization... without tampering with Liberation Free Will... but fortunately... neither Molinism nor man have to fully comprehend God’s ways for God to accomplish all Good possible within Libertarian Free Will Endowed Creation.

There’s no real support for it scripturally. So it’s not really helpful to post scripture about it being possible without any support from scripture. In that context, I could use those verses to say Calvinism is true.

Hammster · Jul 4, 2019

Grip Docility said:
It is Middle Knowledge that proofs the burden of condemnation is on mankind, not God.

It is Middle Knowledge that preserves Libertarian Free Will and removes God of Evil by Proxy. IMO.

We can’t just fixate on the finished work, as we aren’t finished yet.

To theologically render things as complete would be to render them as if we were God.

We are mere mortals and it isn’t complete on our side, so we have no right... IMO... to render Theology as if anyone has been reprobated yet.

It’s genuinely happening even though God Knows ALL (Middle Knowledge Also) things. It’s genuine and Actualized, not over.

Can anything happen other than that which God knows will happen?

Grip Docility · Jul 5, 2019

Hammster said:
There’s no real support for it scripturally. So it’s not really helpful to post scripture about it being possible without any support from scripture. In that context, I could use those verses to say Calvinism is true.

Hammster said:
Can anything happen other than that which God knows will happen?

Is not the question if God views sincerity above control?

Hammster · Jul 5, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Is not the question if God views sincerity above control?

No, the question is can anything happen other than that which God knows will happen?

Grip Docility · Jul 5, 2019

Hammster said:
No, the question is can anything happen other than that which God knows will happen?

The answer is clearly ... No!

Crucify my faith as you ... WILL... Brother.

def · Jul 5, 2019

Grip Docility said:
The answer is clearly ... No!

Crucify my faith as you ... WILL... Brother.

Does God know in advance the temperature of every place at all times?

Hammster · Jul 5, 2019

Grip Docility said:
The answer is clearly ... No!

Crucify my faith as you ... WILL... Brother.

Okay. So if God has created this universe using middle knowledge, and He could have chosen to create a different one with different circumstances which would have led to different people being created and saved, then those who are saved are predestined to be saved. And that is because of a choice of God.

Grip Docility · Jul 5, 2019

Hammster said:
Okay. So if God has created this universe using middle knowledge, and He could have chosen to create a different one with different circumstances which would have led to different people being created and saved, then those who are saved are predestined to be saved. And that is because of a choice of God.

This is ignoring that God is capable of saving all that are responsive to Him Of Libertarian Free Will from all Middle Knowledge and Actualized Creation through Divine reconciliation.

Also, due to Actualization, from our perspective, we are saved and should desire that none should perish, but all come to repentance.

In other words... why do men desire to think as if they had God’s Perspective in theology?

Two questions....

Is God Capable?

What is impossible with Jesus Christ?

Grip Docility · Jul 5, 2019

def said:
Does God know in advance the temperature of every place at all times?

Yes.

The question is... how does God know all and relate consciously to Creation... rationally through Actualization?

We can pretend to know... but Job learned that His ways are beyond our ways.

Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)

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