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If it’s libertarian response, it’s not an alteration of man’s Free will, but God’s alteration of His approach.
. IMO
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Molinism and you (Counter Perspective to Determinism)
- Thread starter Grip Docility
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If it’s libertarian response, it’s not an alteration of man’s Free will, but God’s alteration of His approach.
. IMO
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Only if we want to talk about Molinism.
Ideas and perceptions expand and grow with time to ponder them. Is that a fair point?
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zippy2006
Dragonsworn
Some do. It depends a great deal on the cultural and intellectual climate of the age in which an idea was given birth.
Molinism was probably one of the fastest maturing ideas in history. Luis de Molina published his Concordia in 1588, heavy theological debate ensued in the European universities, the Congregatio de Auxiliis concluded in 1607, and the theological system was largely mature by at least 1620. Even Bellarmine's Congruism, which built upon Molinism, was complete by 1613. I don't think Molinism has evolved much at all since that time.
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Exactly. And therein lies the problem.If it’s libertarian response, it’s not an alteration of man’s Free will, but God’s alteration of His approach.
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How so? Does not God Incarnating and Hebrews 2:14 show that God goes all out, motivated from Love, towards Creation?
John 3:16 ; 1 John 2:2
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HatGuy
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It's not exactly true though. Open theists maintain that the future is a realm of possibilities, and God knows those possibilities. The future is "open" however because while God may know the endless possibilities, the future is not settled, meaning your choices are not exhaustively foreknown, only potentially foreknown. In this sense, God does not know the future because the future literally does not exist; it is not actualised until it comes to pass.Open Theism states God doesn’t know the future. Molinism states God knows all futures.
That’s a pretty big difference, right?
On the other hand, the way I'm seeing it, Molinism does claim the future is actualised - it already does exist. However, it was the best possible world to actualize based on God's endless knowledge of all possibilities.
However, as soon as you speak of a non-linear relationship, it seems to me you are speaking in terms open theists would use. Under Molinism, how is the relationship non linear? Given that time is still linear on Molinism, as God perceived all possibilities logically before creation and actualized the best possible outcome (under Molinism) this would still imply that the future is as linear as the past and is, in actuality, determined.
Based on those use of words and your explanation, you seem to me to not be Molinist, even though you think you are. I could be wrong though, so not making claims on your position, just observations.
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zippy2006
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He opposes determinism in the sense that "Tampers with libertarian free will." On Molinism creation is shaped not solely by God's sovereign will, but also by the free will of God's creatures. It is generally accurate to say that if LFW is present, determinism is not.
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HatGuy
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Ok, got it. Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
Although I did think that Molinism attempts to bring LFW and determinism together. At least the kind of determinism that doesn't claim God as cause for everything. But if the future is settled, I'm struggling to understand how it is not determined in at least some sense.
P.S. I'm not defending Open Theism here, just making observations.
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zippy2006
Dragonsworn
In my opinion--and I want to be clear that I am no longer speaking for Grip--Molinism does include a kind of "determinism" that Open Theism does not. On Molinism God has foreknowledge of future events; on Open Theism He does not. It would probably be better to say that Molinism includes a "closed future," since determinism is always a form of causal determinism.
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HatGuy
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Yes, I think so too.
Although, again, under open theism God has foreknowledge of all possible futures, but since the future is not actualized, it does not exist.
I'm reiterating this because I think open theists get criticized for saying God doesn't know everything, which is untrue. They simply say God knows all there is to know - and the future is unknowable because it is not determined nor actualized.
I think your suggestion of the phrase "closed future" is very helpful.
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The problem with Molinism is that it’s not love for His creation, it’s love for results. So it’s possible that someone who will not be saved in this universe would be saved in another, had God chose to create that one.
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Under normal human intercession, you would be correct, but with God, IMO, All things are possible.
We’re talking about God’s intercessory response to libertarian free Will that He Willed.
All I’m asking is that this is actually considered from the perspective of God’s ability, vice mans.
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This is correct. God indeed “Knows” the Actualized future, in Molinism. Because God responds (Mankind’s Perspective) ... Responded (God’s Perspective) to Creations Libertarian Free Will via God’s Divine intercession (Not Determination)(With Middle Knowledge) in the way that recognizes the maximum Gospel Response potential of every living soul of all Actualized, Finalized Creation.
This makes The Actualized sum of all, contingent on Creation and Creator resulted collaboration of God’s Loving Sovereignty geared towards a Relationship Of Love, Versus the Sovereign “Determination” Of God.
Put simply...
In Molinism, God knows the Relationship based Actualized Future.
In Determinism, God Determined the Future.
The ending theological ramifications are enormously different.
IMO
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Your use of Actualization is the superior term when referring to Molinism, as your earlier post correctly specified that the presence of Creations genuine Libertarian Free Will denotes the utter absence of “Determination”.
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Molinism is the explanation for the process of God Actualizing Creation, by Relationally Responding to Creations God Given Libertarian Free Will, with His Multi-Dimensional Omniscience that includes Middle-Knowledge which denotes Multi-Dimensional Omniscience... in such a fashion that Creation is Actualized, instead of being Determined.
Molinism is a “closed future” theology, in that it acknowledges God’s Supreme Multi Dimensional Omniscience, That Knows All things far beyond our comprehension.
Molinism is a “closed future” theology, in that it acknowledges God’s Supreme Multi Dimensional Omniscience, That Knows All things far beyond our comprehension.
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I am looking at it from His ability through the lens of Molinism.Under normal human intercession, you would be correct, but with God, IMO, All things are possible.
We’re talking about God’s intercessory response to libertarian free Will that He Willed.
All I’m asking is that this is actually considered from the perspective of God’s ability, vice mans.
Let’s say that Bob comes to Christ because of Jerry who comes to Christ because of John. Now in the other universe, Jerry isn’t even in existence. So what about Bob? Is he even in existence? And if so, if he doesn’t know John, will he be saved?
There are too many changing variables in Molinism, especially if there is libertarian free will.
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This complicated thread would be nothing without your contributions. I desire it to keep going, but want to express gratitude to each of you for contributing excellent posts to the discussion that built this thread into a very diverse discussion of varying perspectives!
<3
Have a happy fourth... each of you.
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This complicated thread would be nothing without your contributions. I desire it to keep going, but want to express gratitude to each of you for contributing excellent posts to the discussion that built this thread into a very diverse discussion of varying perspectives!
<3
Have a happy fourth... each of you.
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I respect this train of thought but believe God can work with all things to ensure Bob and Jerry exist and come to salvation.
As for life, it speaks of too many changing variables that Only God could comprehend and navigate.
We’re talking about God’s infinite ability.
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If God can ensure that Bob and Jerry can come to salvation, why can’t He ensure that everyone does?I respect this train of thought but believe God can work with all things to ensure Bob and Jerry exist and come to salvation.
As for life, it speaks of too many changing variables that Only God could comprehend and navigate.
We’re talking about God’s infinite ability.
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Libertarian Free Will
Some are wicked to the very core in exceedingly hateful and Blasphemous towards God ways that no matter what circumstances they are provided, they are indeed Exalters of the Creation over the Creator... or as Romans 1:30 calls those Temple Prostitution, Self exalting types... “Arrogant God Haters”. They relate to Satan, by choice, instead of Jesus Christ, in there very heart and will to do so, without refrain or repentance. They will have been given every possible chance to respond to 2 Peter 3:9 by the time their feet hit the lake of fire.
IMO
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