Are there any Wesleyans on here that believe in Eternal Security?

Rawtheran · Jul 4, 2019

Hello everyone as the question in the thread asks are there any Wesleyan's out there who believe in Eternal Security or the belief that when someone has been truly born again, they cannot lose their salvation? There might be times where a believer may go through some tough times or backslide a little but the Holy Spirit guides them through it and keeps them from falling and guides them back to the right path because of the grace in their lives. Are there any Pastors in the UMC, Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist Church, etc. that believe in this theology? Do the Wesleyan denominations allow for leaders and congregants to maybe have this slight difference in belief?

actionsub · Jul 4, 2019

That was the main objection my Baptist friends raised when I went over to the Methodist church..."Really? But they don't believe once saved, always saved! How can you abandon the faith like this?"

Given that the Wesleyan movement consists of thoroughgoing Arminians, I would doubt that you'd find any pastors in the movement who subscribe to eternal security.
As for laity, as one person once put it, "Heresy trials in the Methodist Church are about as scarce as hen's teeth." Given that denominational loyalty is pretty rare these days, you may find quite a number of, say, former Southern Baptists in Wesleyan pews who still hold to eternal security but it's not considered a hill to die on.

Monk Brendan · Jul 4, 2019

Rawtheran said:
Hello everyone as the question in the thread asks are there any Wesleyan's out there who believe in Eternal Security or the belief that when someone has been truly born again, they cannot lose their salvation? There might be times where a believer may go through some tough times or backslide a little but the Holy Spirit guides them through it and keeps them from falling and guides them back to the right path because of the grace in their lives. Are there any Pastors in the UMC, Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist Church, etc. that believe in this theology? Do the Wesleyan denominations allow for leaders and congregants to maybe have this slight difference in belief?

Our faith should be in Christ Jesus Himself, and not what we believe about Him.

And our security is in Christ Jesus Himself, Who is eternal. It should not be in our own act of faith.

Methodized · Jul 4, 2019

Rawtheran said:
Hello everyone as the question in the thread asks are there any Wesleyan's out there who believe in Eternal Security or the belief that when someone has been truly born again, they cannot lose their salvation? There might be times where a believer may go through some tough times or backslide a little but the Holy Spirit guides them through it and keeps them from falling and guides them back to the right path because of the grace in their lives. Are there any Pastors in the UMC, Church of the Nazarene, Free Methodist Church, etc. that believe in this theology? Do the Wesleyan denominations allow for leaders and congregants to maybe have this slight difference in belief?

As said above, you may find some lay people who mistakenly subscribe to this doctrine who are ex-Baptists. But it is sham theology. You are a believer if you believe in Christ. If you don’t you don’t.

The problem with “once saved always saved” is that it is rooted in Calvinist predestination. We don’t believe in predestination as Wesleyan Christians. We believe faith in Christ is a journey with God and that salvation is the ultimate end. You don’t lose your free will just because you become a Christian. If you don’t want to be a believer and follow God, God won’t make you be a believer.

Trust in Christ, not human doctrines.

bekkilyn · Jul 4, 2019

While I don't particularly believe we can accidentally lose salvation like we might carelessly misplace a set of keys, we must have the freedom to choose to reject a continuing relationship with God or it becomes more of an abusive hostage situation than a true relationship.

Methodized · Jul 4, 2019

bekkilyn said:
While I don't particularly believe we can accidentally lose salvation like we might carelessly misplace a set of keys, we must have the freedom to choose to reject a continuing relationship with God or it becomes more of an abusive hostage situation than a true relationship.

No Wesleyan Christian believes you can just lose your salvation. But we also don’t believe that if someone makes a confession of faith and then decides to fully turn their back on God that they are still “saved” because of a previous confession. Faith is a journey and not an event.

timothyu · Jul 4, 2019

bekkilyn said:
we must have the freedom to choose to reject a continuing relationship with God or it becomes more of an abusive hostage situation than a true relationship.

You are either of the Kingdom or you are not. You either hate the world of man and what we are or you don't.
For there are those who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and stick with it or those who like the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root, or were choked. Others rejoined the world of man, being drawn back into it's ways.

Methodized · Jul 5, 2019

timothyu said:
You are either of the Kingdom or you are not. You either hate the wired of man and what we are or you don't.
For there are those who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and stick with it or those who like the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root, or were choked. Others rejoined the world of man, being drawn back into it's ways.

You are in a Wesley/Nazarene/Methodist forum right now. Wesleyan theology teaches us that God loves us and has always loved us and is always seeking a relationship with us (prevenient grace.) We respond to that love by following Christ (justify grace) but we must continue in faith in Christ to grow in our faith and become like Christ.

Our ability to choose doesn't disappear just because we are or have been followers of Christ. Methodists/Wesleyans don't believe in predestination. We don't believe God forces people to follow God if someone chooses not to just because they previously were following God. Salvation is a life long process and not something finished on a single day or moment. You spend your whole life working with the Holy Spirit to become the person God wants you to be (sanctifying grace). In doing so you don't become an automaton who must stay a Christian if you choose otherwise.

timothyu · Jul 5, 2019

Methodized said:
You are in a Wesley/Nazarene/Methodist forum right now. Wesleyan theology teaches us that God loves us and has always loved us and is always seeking a relationship with us (prevenient grace.) We respond to that love by following Christ (justify grace) but we must continue in faith in Christ to grow in our faith and become like Christ.

Our ability to choose doesn't disappear just because we are or have been followers of Christ. Methodists/Wesleyans don't believe in predestination. We don't believe God forces people to follow God if someone chooses not to just because they previously were following God. Salvation is a life long process and not something finished on a single day or moment. You spend your whole life working with the Holy Spirit to become the person God wants you to be (sanctifying grace). In doing so you don't become an automaton who must stay a Christian if you choose otherwise.

Agreed and as I said.

bekkilyn · Jul 5, 2019

timothyu said:
You are either of the Kingdom or you are not. You either hate the world of man and what we are or you don't.
For there are those who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom and stick with it or those who like the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root, or were choked. Others rejoined the world of man, being drawn back into it's ways.

I'm not sure what your point is as pertains to this discussion. Are you disagreeing with me that we have the free choice to reject salvation once we have it? I thought I made my point clear that I (speaking as a Wesleyan Christian) do not agree with OSAS because we must have the free will to reject a relationship with God, but since two people have so far responded to my post that seems to be "correcting" what I said in some way, maybe I wasn't very clear after all. In any case, I do not at all believe in an abusive god that forces us to remain in relationship with him against our will.

Dave-W · Jul 5, 2019

The Nazarene and Assy of God congregations I attended as a youth would fire any pastors who dared to say they believed in OSAS.

bekkilyn · Jul 5, 2019

Dave-W said:
The Nazarene and Assy of God congregations I attended as a youth would fire any pastors who dared to say they believed in OSAS.

In the UMC, we are specifically asked about the topic during the candidacy process even before getting licensed or ordained.

Rawtheran · Jul 5, 2019

bekkilyn said:
In the UMC, we are specifically asked about the topic during the candidacy process even before getting licensed or ordained.

I'll be honest one of the reasons I asked this question is because I am considering someday pursuing ordination in a Wesleyan denomination as I identify with the majority of those beliefs especially with Prevenient Grace, Justifying Grace, and Sanctifying Grace but at the same time I do believe in OSAS. I guess if worse comes to worse that's always something I can keep to myself as I'd much rather serve in a Wesleyan style church than a Baptist one.

bekkilyn · Jul 5, 2019

Rawtheran said:
I'll be honest one of the reasons I asked this question is because I am considering someday pursuing ordination in a Wesleyan denomination as I identify with the majority of those beliefs especially with Prevenient Grace, Justifying Grace, and Sanctifying Grace but at the same time I do believe in OSAS. I guess if worse comes to worse that's always something I can keep to myself as I'd much rather serve in a Wesleyan style church than a Baptist one.

Do you plan to lie if (when) they ask you about it then? Wouldn't such a lie (even by omission) disqualify you from being a good candidate for ordination? As clergy you would be expected to teach according to doctrine, which would include NOT teaching OSAS.

timothyu · Jul 5, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Are you disagreeing with me that we have the free choice to reject salvation once we have it?

No as the parable of the sower makes clear.

Rawtheran · Jul 5, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Do you plan to lie if (when) they ask you about it then? Wouldn't such a lie (even by omission) disqualify you from being a good candidate for ordination? As clergy you would be expected to teach according to doctrine, which would include NOT teaching OSAS.

I would be honest with DCOM and BOOM and state that privately I believe in Eternal Security but I wouldn't preach it especially since its a debatable inessential of faith. For example, I have met several UMC Pastors in West Ohio who privately do not believe in Infant Baptism but they will do it because of the importance of uniformity and one Pastor I interviewed for a college paper told me that while he didn't agree with everything the UMC taught such as Infant Baptism he thought that being a Christian and teaching more about the essentials of faith were more important. Wouldn't a denomination that is unwilling to accept minor differences even among its leaders be a bad denomination that truly does not serve Christ? If I recall there were times where even the disciples didn't completely agree on doctrine.

timothyu · Jul 5, 2019

And yet Methodist and 70% of the Presbyterian in Canada united to form the United Church.

Rawtheran · Jul 5, 2019

Besides in the Book of Discipline it clearly states that openly gay clergy can't be ordained and this was reaffirmed at General Conference this past February yet several Annual Conferences have just simply ignored this ruling and have ordained openly gay clergy or people who have stated they would marry two people who were gay. If the UMC is willing to look the other way for these huge instances then something tells me that they'll be alright with me having a minor disagreement in regards to OSAS.

bekkilyn · Jul 5, 2019

I am glad you would be honest during your committee interviews. They also tend to ask about baptism (and re-baptism.) Would you be able to preach and teach the following without feeling like you are being false to others or yourself? (It's not about what others may have done or not have done, but about what is in your heart.)

Do United Methodists believe "once saved, always saved" or can we "lose our salvation"? – The United Methodist Church

The UMC does license ordained clergy of other denominations to serve its churches, so you may find a Southern Baptist minister serving a United Methodist congregation, but the process to actually be ordained within the denomination is much more demanding when it comes to major doctrinal views vs. a disagreement over a single social principle (e.g. homosexuality).

Dave-W · Jul 5, 2019

bekkilyn said:
Do you plan to lie if (when) they ask you about it then? Wouldn't such a lie (even by omission) disqualify you from being a good candidate for ordination? As clergy you would be expected to teach according to doctrine, which would include NOT teaching OSAS.

That follows my line of thought as well.

The Matthew version of the Great Commission says to make disciples. That is an impartation of who and what you are to your followers. Holding to positions you cannot teach or express that are in opposition to the stated doctrines of your denomination puts a big wrench in to the gear works of that process.

Are there any Wesleyans on here that believe in Eternal Security?

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