During Tribulation, is it still Faith only for salvation?

Tutorman said:

Of course that is the lens you read through because that is what you learned from man

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Actually, it's simple biblical scripture... no need to learn from man.

Guojing said:

In that case, the "believe in him" is the faith part I was referring to. Even though you have not seen Jesus with your eyes nor seen him died on the cross nor rose again, you believe what you read or what others spoke to you about him, that all those events happened to justify you from your sins.

If you want to lump them all under the term "grace", it will confuse readers because it will support universalism.

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What do you mean by "universalism"?

Guojing said:

Everyone is saved In the end, since Jesus died for all

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Well, that's pretty optimistic... I mean who doesn't have loved ones that deny Christ or have been plain out atheistic....

However, I do not see this view presented in the Bible... so.. I will have to disagree.

Guojing said:

You have yet to encounter any Christian who believe that the church is delivered from the wrath to come? Paul explain that in a few of his letters, esp 1 Thess.

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So to establish this teaching, you must assume that the references to God's wrath refer, not to God's angels destroying the wicked with fire at the second coming, or to final judgment, but to the tribulation period?

timtams said:

So to establish this teaching, you must assume that the references to God's wrath refer, not to God's angels destroying the wicked with fire at the second coming, or to final judgment, but to the tribulation period?

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The tribulation is a time of Satan's reign with the beast and the false prophet... Kinda like a anti trinity.... Satan rules and then God pours His wrath out on the world with the scrolls and bowl judgements.

The angels and Christ, along with His bride, return, as a Holy Army, at the end of this seven years to sort the wheat from the chaff and end the reign of Satan and bind him.

JacksBratt said:

The tribulation is a time of Satan's reign with the beast and the false prophet... Kinda like a anti trinity.... Satan rules and then God pours His wrath out on the world with the scrolls and bowl judgements.

The angels and Christ, along with His bride, return, as a Holy Army, at the end of this seven years to sort the wheat from the chaff and end the reign of Satan and bind him.

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The bowls of wrath are God's judgments in history.

When do you think the following occurs?:

5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.


THIS is the wrath from which we are delivered, not the tribulation, in which the beast makes war against the saints.
So is the wrath = tribulation equation the only basis you have or is there more evidence?

JacksBratt said:

OK, lets go with that. How many of the 2.5 billion Christians are going to be alive at the end of 7 years of total ban on Christianity, and, 3.5 years of "take the mark or be killed"?

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I have no knowledge what the future holds, I simply put my trust in Jesus Christ. Our Lord told us that in this world we would have tribulation, suffering, pain, loss; so we know this life is a cross. And Christ calls us to live this life, this cross, for His sake, in sacrifice and love for our fellow man. For our neighbor. To love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, to forgive those who have sinned against us, to pray for those who despise us and persecute us.

That's what I know. And that through all things, through everything, we are more than conquerors through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Well the canonized scripture goes into quite the detail about one.... are we to doubt the truth of the scripture?

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Not really. It boils down to how a minority of people interpret less than a handful of passages from the book of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John.

So, is it like "we're going to suffer things never seen before and probably get our heads chopped off but.. I comfort you with this news"?

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That's not what Paul is talking about, no. He's saying to comfort one another in the hope of the resurrection.

The last part, the scripture, is to comfort those that may have thought that those loved ones that were already dead.... would not be raptured... and thus have no hope

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The resurrection. He's reminding them that there is hope because of the resurrection. Because there were those going around, as we see elsewhere, who had been denying the resurrection or saying it had already taken place. That's stuff Paul gets into in 1 Corinthians 15 and also in 2 Thessalonians.

Really? You don't believe in a seven year tribulation? Hmmm that is interesting

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Not really that interesting. It's just never been part of normative Christian teaching. Since Scripture never mentions a "seven year tribulation", there's never been a reason for the Church to ever believe or teach it.

Why would "you" be killing your fellow Christians? Would you not all be together, hiding, scrounging, running for your lives?

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If the world starts persecuting, then I would be hiding, scrounging.

If you don't believe in a Satanic reign then what is your belief in the time before Christ returns?

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What Jesus says, people will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage. Matthew 24:37-44

Well, you are getting two events mixed together as one.

First, Christ will come to the clouds, not return to earth, and collect His church, His Bride, All those that were believers, dead and alive. Everyone else will stay behind.

The bride will go with Him back to heaven and there will be judging, honoring, the wedding and wedding feast. All the while the whole God Head is there in heaven... God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost....

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That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Christ will return in glory as judge of the living and the dead, and when He returns the dead shall be raised.

Show me one place in Scripture that says that Jesus returns secretly to take Christians into heaven. Go ahead, take your time.

Nobody is looking after the earth as far as righteousness. Satan has full reign and is running amuck. This is because the church and the "one who restrains" are gone.

Then, at the end of the seven years of total carnage on earth.. Christ returns in all His glory, with the heavenly angels and His bride... all part of His army.. To the battle of Armageddon....

The rapture is only Christ coming for His bride... not the second coming.

And, this will be explained, on earth, as a mass alien abduction... all the Christians have been taken as they are not following the real plan of the alien worlds...

(That part is not scripture) Just a plausible story.

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It's a very creative and imaginative story, but it's simply not what Scripture teaches and it's not what the Christian Church has always believed.

As the Scriptures bear witness and all the Holy Creeds do profess: We believe that the Lord is now seated at the right hand of the Father, from whence He will come again to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom will have no end; when He comes the dead will be raised, and we who are alive will be, like them, transformed. God will make all things new, and there will be life everlasting in the Age to Come.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Not really. It boils down to how a minority of people interpret less than a handful of passages from the book of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John.

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Exactly

ViaCrucis said:

Not really that interesting. It's just never been part of normative Christian teaching. Since Scripture never mentions a "seven year tribulation", there's never been a reason for the Church to ever believe or teach it.

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even year tib is a teaching of men for sure

JacksBratt said:

Actually, it's simple biblical scripture... no need to learn from man.

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Actually it is not nor has it been a normative part of Church history and teaching down through the ages. Instead it is a man made recent doctrine that is at best heretical

JacksBratt said:

OH.... Ok..

Do you have statistics or.. just pulling that out of your hat? Cause where I'm from and from what I see on TV and other sites.... there is a whole bunch of us silly "pre tribbers" out there... and... others are mid tribbers... or post tribbers... but... all are tribbers.....

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Pretribulationism/Dispensationalism is a small segment of the Evangelical/Pentecostal population.

Of the 2.5 billion Christians:

1 billion are Roman Catholic (and don't believe in "the Rapture")
300-500 million are Eastern Orthodox (and don't believe in "the Rapture")
There are about 90 million Oriental Orthodox
About 60-70 million Lutherans
About 70 million Presbyterians
About 70 million Methodists
About 90 million Anglicans

If you want I could fine more exact numbers, I'm going by memory here. But the point is this, of about 2.5 billion Christians nearly 2 billion of hat 2.5 billion belong to churches which do not, and never have, taught "the Rapture". And this isn't even counting the millions of Baptists, Pentecostals, and other Protestant groups where the majority of the adherents are not Rapturists. Though you will find more Rapturists among these traditions than others.

All is said and done we're talking about a handful of, mostly American, Evangelicals. Rapturism began among the Plymouth Brethren, but was spread to the United States, and while it was rejected by every major denomination and branch of Christianity at the time, it did eventually slowly make inroads.

But outside of those places where Disensationalism has gotten at least part of a foothold, it's just not what Christians believe around the world--because it's not what Christians have ever believed. It's a new doctrine that was invented in the 1800's.

-CryptoLutheran

Guojing said:

If indeed the rapture of the church is a mystery that was only revealed to Paul, then yes, you probably need to.

The OT prophets were very aware of the coming of God to judge the world. In fact, the Jews thought Jesus first coming represented that

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I don't build doctrines on assumptions. Paul was clear that the Lord would return in fiery judgment upon the ungodly. I have already quoted a passage. Please read it and tell me when this will happen:


5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking[a] and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Guojing said:

In the Tribulation, you will be judged by your faith and your works. We are not the ungodly once we accept Jesus's DBR during this age of grace.

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You haven't provided any evidence of a pretribulation rapture yet. Are you saying that "the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment" in Romans 2 speaks of the tribulation period?

Guojing said:

Paul talks about it in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess from what I am aware of. You are the first that I have seen that link Romans 2 to the rapture.

There is no evidence because it has not happened yet. Like other things for the body of Christ, you need to accept it by faith.

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Those text have nothing to do with that. Do you believe the dead in Christ will rise in a pre-tribulation rapture? A trumpet shall sound and God shall descend? Is that what you believe the pre--tribulation departure to be?

Guojing said:

Paul talks about it in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess from what I am aware of. You are the first that I have seen that link Romans 2 to the rapture.

There is no evidence because it has not happened yet. Like other things for the body of Christ, you need to accept it by faith.

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What do you link it to? I said it might refer to the Lord coming back in fiery judgment, or it might refer to the actual day of judgment. I don't know, but either way, it shows that the equation wrath = tribulation is open to challenge, because it cannot refer to tribulation or to judgments in history.

1 Thess speaks of Christians being alive until the coming of the Lord. In Paul, that refers to the end of history, not a "secret" event.