Can you lose your salvation

createdtoworship

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Hebrews 9:15, for them that God called to be saints, only they receive the promise of God which is eternal life.
Not all are called to be saints. Only those who have believed the message were called. The rest were sons of disobedience. They could not believe in Christ because God had not allowed them to believe, they were not granted to know Christ and so then they could not come to Christ in faith of Him being the Son of God, read John 6 as per my signature at the end of the post..

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

For those who are born of God, it is said of them they overcome the world by their faith. They do not draw back from following Christ into perdition, they believe unto the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 10:38-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
38 Now just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Any consideration of sin separating you from God in Christ if you are a new creation in Christ is fake news, it can not indeed will never happen, you will be saved because you are born of God and you will not lost, as Christ even so says in John 10. In fact anyone who teaches that is deceived, Christ says those who hear Him, follow Him and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish. Christ plainly tells us that there are some who do not believe in Him and He knows His own and His own know Him.

Jesus in v29 says His believers were given to Him by God, and that would have happened before the foundation of this world as Ephesians 1 clearly teaches.

23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
30 I and My Father are one.”

Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation. That is why some verses seem to talk about security and others seem to say that God tosses those who bear no fruit in the fire. Both are true! It's a balance. This is probably the hardest topic in christianity to understand, and most seminaries have it wrong. Most either error on the side of OSAS or error on the side that sin can cause you to lose salvation. Neither are true. Jesus paid for our sin on the cross, sin is no longer an issue for our salvation. But sin can deceive us, not God. God's end of the issue is done and settled, but our faith can be changed due to wanting to justify our sin. For example if I love having sex with a girl that is not my wife, I may want to justify that sin in my mind, then eventually I start to loathe all those who say it's wrong, including Jesus. Eventually that bitterness grows into doubt. A little leaven, leavens the whole loaf. And I have shipwrecked my faith. God always was willing to save me, but I decided not to endorse the check personally speaking. My name was not cancelled out of the Book of life, because I believe that happens at the end of our lives. One was still genuinely saved, but now they no longer believe Jesus was God's son or savior. God will not grant salvation any longer to such a person. As in the curse of balaam, God's people have cursed themselves. See Balaam could not curse God's people externally, but He tempted them in a separate way, to lead them into adultery with mideanite women. They tried to curse God's people three times from the outside, it was impossible. And only resulted in blessing them. However He was able to lead them into forfeiting the blessing themselves. I think that is a perfect example of apostacy. However in the case of salvation, no sin will cause salvation to be lost, accept one. The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. It is when I believe in Jesus or I don't either one, but I am not willing to trust Him with my salvation, and His gift of Grace. I once believed but due to the deception of sin, I have loved the world more than God, and eventually my seed of faith was dried up in the sun of tribulation, or my faith grew quickly in shallow soil, and I was not planted in a local church quickly enough and into fertile soil, my plant dies from malnutrition and my faith withers. Lots of things can cause a lack of faith. Now realize that doubting the Bible and God and Jesus is normal. I had various doubts the first ten years of Christianity, maybe even the first 15 years. Sometimes I doubted JEsus existence, or the supernatural aspect of the Bible. But because I was planted in a local church, those doubts went away naturally in time, as I prayed and studied. Some people don't have that church to help them, and they wither in their faith. Sometimes becoming twice the son of hell than before they were saved. I talk to athiests every day that once believed, and no longer do. Now they get full excitement in ship wrecking others faiths. They have become worse in the end, than they were in the beginning. So it's important to nurtture new saplings in the faith. Make sure they know they are loved by God and nothing they can do can separate them from His love. However we can shipwreck ourselves. But I don't mention this to new believers as it is the meat of scripture and something that they won't get, and may confuse them on grace and security. See we are eternally secure forever, nothing can separate us from God's love. We are elect before the foundation of the world. We are secure. But even in the most secure foundations, they are not locked from the inside. the white house is locked from the outside, no one can come in. But you can walk out if you choose.
( I added this to the OP, as this can be a confusing topic)
 
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Let's examine the claims of this pictorial chart in light of what Scripture says.

#1. The first claim suggests that word "religion" is bad in the first column because it is compared or contrasted to the second column called the "gospel":

But does the Bible say that word "religion" is bad?​

No. The Bible says,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27).

In other words, there is a pure religion that James talks about that is undefiled before God. It is to visit the fatherless, the widows in their affliction, and to keep themselves unspotted from the world.​

#2. The next claim says: "If I obey, I am accepted:"

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes. The Bible says,

"And being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

"In every nation, the person who fears Him [God], and works righteousness, is accepted with Him" (Acts of the Apostles 10:35)​

#3. The next claim says: "If I am good, God will love me."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes. The Bible says,

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

12 "And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?" (Deuteronomy 10:12-13) (NIV).
#4. The next claim says: "All people are good and bad."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

No. The Bible says,

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23).

This is the first claim that the pictorial chart gets right. Some religions do believe that all people have good and bad in them. But the Bible says God is good alone (Mark 10:18). So no doubt we agree on this one in regards to all people. Even believers had once sinned as a part of their past before they came to Christ. But where we may disagree is that a faithful believer in Jesus Christ will in time overcome their grievous sin and live a good and righteous life by the power of the Lord working within them.
#5. The next claim says: "The focus is on what I do or don't do."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes, the Bible says,

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

“Surrender your different body parts as being servants to righteousness unto holiness.” (Romans 6:19).

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:1‬).

"Walk as children of light:" (Ephesians 5:8)
"Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:10-11).
#6. The next claim says, "It produces pride and despair." This is in reference to a religion that is about obedience (of which the Bible teaches).

So is this claim true according to the Bible?

No. The Bible says the exact opposite.

The Bible states that to man who does not agree with the doctrine of godliness (obedience) is proud.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,.." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

And God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Here are the fruits or results to obeying God's law or Word.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart:
the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
(Psalms 19:7-8).
"Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:11).

9 "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."
(Psalms 119:9-11).

"But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:28).
#7. The next claim says, "I am motivated by fear."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes, the Bible says,

"Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." (Proverbs 1:7).

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18).
I will address the claims in the second column of this pictorial chart at a later time (Lord willing).

I hopes this helps;
And may God bless you this fine day.
 
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createdtoworship

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Let's examine the claims of this pictorial chart in light of what Scripture says.

#1. The first claim suggests that word "religion" is bad in the first column because it is compared or contrasted to the second column called the "gospel":

But does the Bible say that word "religion" is bad?​

No. The Bible says,

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27).

In other words, there is a pure religion that James talks about that is undefiled before God. It is to visit the fatherless, the widows in their affliction, and to keep themselves unspotted from the world.​

#2. The next claim says: "If I obey, I am accepted:"

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes. The Bible says,

"And being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrews 5:9).

"In every nation, the person who fears Him [God], and works righteousness, is accepted with Him" (Acts of the Apostles 10:35)​

#3. The next claim says: "If I am good, God will love me."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes. The Bible says,

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love." (John 15:10).

12 "And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God ask of you but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,
13 and to observe the Lord’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?" (Deuteronomy 10:12-13) (NIV).
#4. The next claim says: "All people are good and bad."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

No. The Bible says,

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" (Romans 3:23).

This is the first claim that the pictorial chart gets right. Some religions do believe that all people have good and bad in them. But the Bible says God is good alone (Mark 10:18). So no doubt we agree on this one in regards to all people. Even believers had once sinned as a part of their past before they came to Christ. But where we may disagree is that a faithful believer in Jesus Christ will in time overcome their grievous sin and live a good and righteous life by the power of the Lord working within them.
#5. The next claim says: "The focus is on what I do or don't do."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes, the Bible says,

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

“Surrender your different body parts as being servants to righteousness unto holiness.” (Romans 6:19).

"Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭7:1‬).

"Walk as children of light:" (Ephesians 5:8)
"Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord, and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them" (Ephesians 5:10-11).
#6. The next claim says, "It produces pride and despair." This is in reference to a religion that is about obedience (of which the Bible teaches).

So is this claim true according to the Bible?

No. The Bible says the exact opposite.

The Bible states that to man who does not agree with the doctrine of godliness (obedience) is proud.

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,.." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

And God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

Here are the fruits or results to obeying God's law or Word.

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul:
the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart:
the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
(Psalms 19:7-8).
"Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:11).

9 "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."
(Psalms 119:9-11).

"But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." (Luke 11:28).
#7. The next claim says, "I am motivated by fear."

Is this claim true according to the Bible?

Yes, the Bible says,

"Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding." (Job 28:28).

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." (Proverbs 1:7).

"...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

"There is no fear of God before their eyes." (Romans 3:18).
I will address the claims in the second column of this pictorial chart at a later time (Lord willing).

I hopes this helps;
And may God bless you this fine day.
so basically you would be teaching the same gospel of works as the Jehovah's witnesses, and mormons.

you mention obeying God, but what exactly is to be obeyed.

If God's will is to be obeyed, then we must according to mathew be "perfect as the father in heaven is perfect"

again there is two ways to heaven, one is our own righteous acts, and secondly is the righteous acts of Jesus.

I agree with all the scripture posted, but it's implications according to salvation being a gift (ephesians 2:8), and salvation by faith (including repenting of sin) is found in most places in the gospels. Just because we repent of sin to be saved, which answers most of your verses above, does not mean we are "sinless." which would be required if you are not under God's grace. Even the mormons said this week at my door, that grace is only for the resurrection, then God saves us by grace after we have performed our best morally speaking, He picks up the slack. But again you can't be partial. It if is of works, then grace is no longer grace. Romans 11:6. So we are either saved by our righteousness, or by Christs. There is not middle ground, we are not saved by our own righteousness, then God gives us a boost at the end, which is what the mormons were saying, and it appears what you are saying too. Because this dishonors the sacrifice. Imagine being God and sending your own son to die on the cross to pay for the sins of the world, and then the christians saying, hey I have five bucks, I have ten bucks. I want to offer my own righteousness to help pay for my salvation. God would be highly offended. I cannot say you are not christian in believing this. But I can say that your salvation is no different than other unorthodox christian cults. Salvation by works was the whole point of the reformation, it is why there is protestants today.
 
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so basically you would be teaching the same gospel of works as the Jehovah's witnesses, and mormons.

you mention obeying God, but what exactly is to be obeyed.

If God's will is to be obeyed, then we must according to mathew be "perfect as the father in heaven is perfect"

again there is two ways to heaven, one is our own righteous acts, and secondly is the righteous acts of Jesus.

I agree with all the scripture posted, but it's implications according to salvation being a gift (ephesians 2:8), and salvation by faith (including repenting of sin) is found in most places in the gospels. Just because we repent of sin to be saved, which answers most of your verses above, does not mean we are "sinless." which would be required if you are not under God's grace. Even the mormons said this week at my door, that grace is only for the resurrection, then God saves us by grace after we have performed our best morally speaking, He picks up the slack. But again you can't be partial. It if is of works, then grace is no longer grace. Romans 11:6. So we are either saved by our righteousness, or by Christs. There is not middle ground, we are not saved by our own righteousness, then God gives us a boost at the end, which is what the mormons were saying, and it appears what you are saying too. Because this dishonors the sacrifice. Imagine being God and sending your own son to die on the cross to pay for the sins of the world, and then the christians saying, hey I have five bucks, I have ten bucks. I want to offer my own righteousness to help pay for my salvation. God would be highly offended. I cannot say you are not christian in believing this. But I can say that your salvation is no different than other unorthodox christian cults. Salvation by works was the whole point of the reformation, it is why there is protestants today.

Please address the verses and or passages I posted. I took a bit of time trying to dig and find the right verses that refute what the majority of the first column stated.

Oh, and Ad hominems doesn't really prove anything. Guilt by association is not always true. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean the Trinity is not true. I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura non-denominational Christian. This means that I am not in favor of any added traditions or any additional books, visions, etc. (like with Mormons, JW's, etc.) that can be added to God's Word (the Bible).

So the battle ground must be God's Word. So I will await your response to an explanation on the Scripture verses I posted.

If not, then have a great night.
 
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The pictorial chart says:

"I am accepted, so I obey.
I am bad, and Jesus loves bad people
."​

Okay, first, these two sentences contradict each other. You cannot claim to obey if you are also claiming to be bad (which is implied by one being disobedient).

Second, “I am accepted, so I obey” is false.
This implies that one will automatically always obey as a part of being accepted.

However, this is simply not true. We know that obeying is not automatic because we are told to endure to the end, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews (See: Romans 11:21-22).

The next claim, "I am bad, and Jesus loves bad people."

Actually, Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15); And Psalms 7:11 says, "God is angry with the wicked every day." In Matthew 7:23, we learn that those believers who did wonderful works in Christ's name were told to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity (or sin), too. This shows that Jesus does not have love for bad people. Jesus just prior was talking about bad trees and how they cannot bring forth good fruit and vise versa. In Matthew 7:26-27, Jesus relates to a person who does not do what He says to like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

full


18 “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”​

19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (1 Peter 4:18-19).


...
 
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The next claim in the pictorial chart says, "All people are repentant or not."

If one is saying that a person does not have to repent as a part of salvation, then this would be a false statement (if that is what the person is implying by this statement).

Jesus says, "Repent or perish" (Luke 13:3).


...
 
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The next claim in the pictorial chart says, "The focus is on what Jesus did."

In my experience in talking with OSAS Proponents, they usually tell me that this means that all they have to do is believe on Jesus and not worry about sin so much. But this is not the purpose or goal of the gospel, though.

Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason Christ died for us was so as to sanctify us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that way He (Christ) can present to Himself a church that is holy and without blemish.

Romans 13:14 says that if you put on Christ, you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
This is because Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).

1 John 1:7 says that if you walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you from all sin.

Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him.



...
 
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createdtoworship

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Please address the verses and or passages I posted. I took a bit of time trying to dig and find the right verses that refute what the majority of the first column stated.

Oh, and Ad hominems doesn't really prove anything. Guilt by association is not always true. Catholics believe in the Trinity, but that does not mean the Trinity is not true. I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura non-denominational Christian. This means that I am not in favor of any added traditions or any additional books, visions, etc. (like with Mormons, JW's, etc.) that can be added to God's Word (the Bible).

So the battle ground must be God's Word. So I will await your response to an explanation on the Scripture verses I posted.

If not, then have a great night.
I am not using an ad hominem. That is insulting someone because there is no facts to use. I was literally comparing your soteriology to that of other non christian cults, and you cannot say it's any different. I just want that to settle for awhile.

I already said all those verses speak of salvific repentance, not works righteousness.

If it is works righteousness then you are forced to view salvation as a wage, not as a gift. But only wage we get from God is death and judgement for our imperfections. If we want what is coming to us, then it will be wrath. Not Glory. The wages of sin is death, but the Gift of God is eternal life. Rom 3:23. Rom 6:23, Eph 2:8

we are not saved by our works, this much is clear.

if we were, then there would be no reason for Jesus to come.
 
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I am not using an ad hominem. That is insulting someone because there is no facts to use. I was literally comparing your soteriology to that of other non christian cults, and you cannot say it's any different. I just want that to settle for awhile.

full


Ad hominem: "Marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made."

Source:
Definition of AD HOMINEM


One more time, I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura non-denominational Christian.

Trinitarian
means: "of or relating to the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, or adherents to that doctrine."

Source:
Definition of TRINITARIAN

All your Christian cults do not adhere to the Trinity (i.e. that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct persons and yet they all exist as one God). Many of them no doubt believe that you have to believe in their version of god in order to be saved. I believe that once the truth of the Trinity has been revealed to a person, they cannot deny that truth. For we must worship God in spirit and in truth. So to accuse my soteriology like that of Christian cults is not exactly accurate or true.

Sola Scriptura means: "(Latin: by scripture alone) is a theological doctrine held by some Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice."

Source:
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia

Your Christian cults believe their additional holy book or written works play an important part in their role of salvation. They do not use the Bible alone as the sole source of their authority when it comes to salvation. So to accuse my soteriology like that of Christian cults is not exactly accurate or true.

You said:
I already said all those verses speak of salvific repentance, not works righteousness.

This is a broad brush stroke answer that does not specifically explain the intricacies of the details of the actual words within the actual verses I presented. Again, please address each verse that I have provided. You do not have to explain them all if you like. I know that may be time consuming for you to do and you are not willing to do that. But take 2 or 3 of the verses and give me a word for word commentary on how they work from your perspective or belief.

For me: When I read verses like Romans 8:13, I am given a choice. Live one way and i will die, and if I live another way, I am going to live eternally. The choice is up to me, and it is not something forced. This is one but of many examples in the Bible. The word "if" is also used in the Bible, as well. "IF we [do this]"... then... "[this will happen]," etc. For example: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

In addition, as I stated in a previous post to you:

We know that obeying is not automatic because we are told to endure to the end, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews (See: Romans 11:21-22).​

You said:
If it is works righteousness then you are forced to view salvation as a wage, not as a gift. But only wage we get from God is death and judgement for our imperfections. If we want what is coming to us, then it will be wrath. Not Glory. The wages of sin is death, but the Gift of God is eternal life. Rom 3:23. Rom 6:23, Eph 2:8

Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism":

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

You said:
we are not saved by our works, this much is clear.
if we were, then there would be no reason for Jesus to come.

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


...
 
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Ad hominem: "Marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made."

Source:
Definition of AD HOMINEM


One more time, I am a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura non-denominational Christian.

Trinitarian
means: "of or relating to the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, or adherents to that doctrine."

Source:
Definition of TRINITARIAN

All your Christian cults do not adhere to the Trinity (i.e. that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct persons and yet they all exist as one God). Many of them no doubt believe that you have to believe in their version of god in order to be saved. I believe that once the truth of the Trinity has been revealed to a person, they cannot deny that truth. For we must worship God in spirit and in truth. So to accuse my soteriology like that of Christian cults is not exactly accurate or true.

Sola Scriptura means: "(Latin: by scripture alone) is a theological doctrine held by some Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible rule of faith and practice."

Source:
Sola scriptura - Wikipedia

Your Christian cults believe their additional holy book or written works play an important part in their role of salvation. They do not use the Bible alone as the sole source of their authority when it comes to salvation. So to accuse my soteriology like that of Christian cults is not exactly accurate or true.



This is a broad brush stroke answer that does not specifically explain the intricacies of the details of the actual words within the actual verses I presented. Again, please address each verse that I have provided. You do not have to explain them all if you like. I know that may be time consuming for you to do and you are not willing to do that. But take 2 or 3 of the verses and give me a word for word commentary on how they work from your perspective or belief.

For me: When I read verses like Romans 8:13, I am given a choice. Live one way and i will die, and if I live another way, I am going to live eternally. The choice is up to me, and it is not something forced. This is one but of many examples in the Bible. The word "if" is also used in the Bible, as well. "IF we [do this]"... then... "[this will happen]," etc. For example: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

In addition, as I stated in a previous post to you:

We know that obeying is not automatic because we are told to endure to the end, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in the grace of God, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).​

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off like the Jews (See: Romans 11:21-22).​



Romans 4:4, and Works of Earning Money vs. Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift:

To him that works his reward is not of grace but it is of debt as if it was some kind of obligation like at a job whereby he works so as to earn money.

"Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him)." (Romans 4:4) (AMPC).​

So yes. I agree. Works Alone or trading dollars for hours like at a job involving salvation is wrong. Muslims are wrong because they have no grace or rest ever. It is purely a works based system of salvation in the Muslim religion and no grace or mercy (like with Christ) if they mess up. Their good deeds have to outweigh their bad deeds.

But this is not the same thing as "Works of Responsibility in Owning a Free Gift."

I believe God's grace is a free gift as Scripture says (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received, and then we do works of responsibility to take care of those gifts.

Let me give you an example:

If Rick received a car as a free gift from his dad, does that mean he can run red lights, drive drunk, and hit pedestrians? No. If he were to do that, he would not have his gift for very long. Now, was his car any less a free gift because he had to do works of responsibility in possessing his free gift? No. Did Rick have to work at a job and get a loan to buy this car? No. It was a free gift from his dad.

So working like at a job (trading dollars for hours) is not the same as doing "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift." Paul is not talking about responsibility in possessing Jesus Christ (Who is our gift). Paul is talking about trying to earn your salvation by a system of "Works Salvationism Alone" that did not include God's grace at all.

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism":

Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.



Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).


...
Again I was not using adhominem, that is when you insult because of the fact you have no argument. I had a very logical argument. The soteriology you presented is works righteousness the same exact gospel message all christian cults believe. They are not just cults because some deny the trinity. Mormons actually believe in the trinity. But they also believe in polytheism. But just the salvation message alone is enough to call the unorthdox, cults. The soteriology in your posts conflates repentance with sinless perfectionism. As i presented many times fails and is in violation of a host of verses (eph 2:8) and this verse: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. -Galatians:2:21.

The fact that you sin every day on the Internet with lust proves that you are not saved by the very gospel you proclaim. All you have left is God's grace. Turn and repent of dead works hebrews 6:1, and turn to God.
 
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Again I was not using adhominem, that is when you insult because of the fact you have no argument. I had a very logical argument. The soteriology you presented is works righteousness the same exact gospel message all christian cults believe. They are not just cults because some deny the trinity. Mormons actually believe in the trinity. But they also believe in polytheism. But just the salvation message alone is enough to call the unorthdox, cults. The soteriology in your posts conflates repentance with sinless perfectionism. As i presented many times fails and is in violation of a host of verses (eph 2:8) and this verse: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. -Galatians:2:21.

The fact that you sin every day on the Internet with lust proves that you are not saved by the very gospel you proclaim. All you have left is God's grace. Turn and repent of dead works hebrews 6:1, and turn to God.

Okay. First, Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. Polytheism is not the Trinity. They believe in three separate gods, and not one God who exists in three persons (Which is the Trinity).

Second, I do not believe Sinless Perfectionism is a salvation issue. I believe we have to in time overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). The Bible talks about how there is a "sin that does not lead unto death" (1 John 5:17). While 1 John 5 deals with a unique "sin not unto death", I believe the Bible teaches that there are other minor transgressions or sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (like the breaking of the command to be baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or faults of character in loving like when Paul refused to obey the Spirit in going to Jerusalem (out of his love to see Israel saved) (Acts of the Apostles 21), etc.). But make no mistake, like with Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11), grievous sin can separate a believer from God if they do not repent (seeking forgiveness of such a sin with the Lord), and they do not forsake it with the Lord's help. For if we confess and forsake sin, we have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Three, guilt by association does not determine the truth of what God's Word says. For example: There are non-Christian religions that support the idea of divine grace:

Divine grace - Wikipedia

But surely divine grace is not an unbiblical concept just because the Bible teaches it, right? The same is true with the Bible teaching how we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Four, you did not deal with my previous post that talks about how Paul was referring to "Circumcision Salvationism" when he dealt with referring to speaking negatively against the Law (salvation wise). So Paul was talking about Law Alone Salvationism (without God's grace) because certain Christians were being deceived into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. You quote Galatians 2:21, but little do you realize that the context is referring to Circumcision Salvationism (See Galatians 2:3). For if you were to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, you will see clearly the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" being described. This is what Paul had to deal with during his time. So that is why he spoke against the Law in regards to salvation (i.e. the Old Law or Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace). For why else would he say, "What profit is there in circumicion?" in Romans 3:1? Why else would Paul say, "If you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing" in Galatians 5:2? Think.

Paul was not speaking against the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness. Paul himself said that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud, and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). For at the Judgment: Why else would Jesus tell certain believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him? It was because they also worked iniquity (or sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). They most likely justified sin on some level and turned God's grace into a license for immorality because they still had sin or iniquity within their lives (that went unresolved with the Lord). For Jude 1 warns about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality; For it is written:

"They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality." (Jude 1:4 NIV).
 
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Apostacy can happen but it is not a performance issue. It's not sin or anything else that can remove salvation. But sin can deceive us into forfeiting our own secure fortress of salvation.

A loss of salvation or failing to have God's salvation is a performance issue.

We see this in the Parable of the Talents:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).
 
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createdtoworship

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Okay. First, Mormons do not believe in the Trinity. Polytheism is not the Trinity. They believe in three separate gods, and not one God who exists in three persons (Which is the Trinity).

Second, I do not believe Sinless Perfectionism is a salvation issue. I believe we have to in time overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). The Bible talks about how there is a "sin that does not lead unto death" (1 John 5:17). While 1 John 5 deals with a unique "sin not unto death", I believe the Bible teaches that there are other minor transgressions or sins that do not lead unto spiritual death (like the breaking of the command to be baptized (1 Peter 3:21), or faults of character in loving like when Paul refused to obey the Spirit in going to Jerusalem (out of his love to see Israel saved) (Acts of the Apostles 21), etc.). But make no mistake, like with Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11), grievous sin can separate a believer from God if they do not repent (seeking forgiveness of such a sin with the Lord), and they do not forsake it with the Lord's help. For if we confess and forsake sin, we have mercy (See: Proverbs 28:13). For if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). If we walk in the light as he (Christ) is in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

Three, guilt by association does not determine the truth of what God's Word says. For example: There are non-Christian religions that support the idea of divine grace:

Divine grace - Wikipedia

But surely divine grace is not an unbiblical concept just because the Bible teaches it, right? The same is true with the Bible teaching how we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Four, you did not deal with my previous post that talks about how Paul was referring to "Circumcision Salvationism" when he dealt with referring to speaking negatively against the Law (salvation wise). So Paul was talking about Law Alone Salvationism (without God's grace) because certain Christians were being deceived into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. You quote Galatians 2:21, but little do you realize that the context is referring to Circumcision Salvationism (See Galatians 2:3). For if you were to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, you will see clearly the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" being described. This is what Paul had to deal with during his time. So that is why he spoke against the Law in regards to salvation (i.e. the Old Law or Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace). For why else would he say, "What profit is there in circumicion?" in Romans 3:1? Why else would Paul say, "If you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing" in Galatians 5:2? Think.

Paul was not speaking against the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness. Paul himself said that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud, and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6). For at the Judgment: Why else would Jesus tell certain believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him? It was because they also worked iniquity (or sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23). They most likely justified sin on some level and turned God's grace into a license for immorality because they still had sin or iniquity within their lives (that went unresolved with the Lord). For Jude 1 warns about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality; For it is written:

"They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality." (Jude 1:4 NIV).

If the verses I quote are only talking about Jews under the law and we cannot apply them to all christians you need to prove that point. Most verses in the new testament can apply to all christians (or former Jews). Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, not Jews. Galatians was written to christians as well. The point that was brought up is circumcision, and following the law of moses. But all laws that we know that save us are what He is talking about. Circumcision was just an example, following the law of moses was another example. He was talking to christian Jews. So the examples He used was Jewish, if the audience was gentile He would have used other examples. But the point is we are not saved by works. James talks about being justified by works, but that is before others. If I am to see if someone is saved. I can only only see it by external fruit. But God can see the heart. You are correct about the mormons denying the trinity. But the trinity is not the only doctrine in which one can be considered unorthodox. Salvation is the primary doctrine of apostate sects.
 
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createdtoworship

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A loss of salvation or failing to have God's salvation is a performance issue.

We see this in the Parable of the Talents:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:21).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

that is just talking about salvific repentance, not sinless perfectionism. You don't believe in sinless perfectionism as you say, but you just admitted that you did believe it in the next sentence.

Second, I do not believe Sinless Perfectionism is a salvation issue. I believe we have to in time overcome grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.).

that is what sinless perfectionism is.

it is important that we bear fruit, but it's about if we have conviction of sin, or if we are proud over sin. To believe we can lose salvation or maintain it by our performance, when our performance is not how we gained salvation is illogical and self refuting.
 
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While the following passage below is talking about the Old Law that is technically no more (as a whole or package deal), the principle truths (stated in the below passage) is timeless, and it can be applied to God's laws today (under the New Covenant Laws) that come from Jesus and His followers.

Lets read it:

7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward." (Psalms 19:7-11).​

So if the above passage does not apply to us today in any way, then we might as well rip this page out of our bibles and ignore such a passage. But if the above passage can be applied to our life today as believers, then the bible breathes as a whole and thus it all gives glory to God. For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

When teaching salvation by grace through faith I emphasize very strongly the meaning of grace, long with the meaning of mercy, because mercy is a product of grace.

Very simply, grace is getting from God that which you do not deserve; while mercy is not getting from God, that which you do deserve.

Is there a point in the Christian life that we ever deserve our salvation? Is there a point in our Christian life that we deserve Hell?

The truth is, we NEVER deserve our salvation, and we ALWAYS deserve hell!

There is no point of obedience that allows us to keep that which we have been graciously given; and likewise, there is no point of disobedience that causes us to loose that which we were graciously given.

If the demerits of disobedience are the cause of loss of God's gracious salvation, it really wasn't a grace based salvation; it was a salvation based upon the merits of obedience.

Paul straightway asked, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

If salvation is obtained by grace, it is also maintained by grace ... that is Paul's point.

You cannot claim you can lose through a demerit system of disobedience, when salvation was not obtained by a merit system of obedience.

Merits are earned, not given by grace. Grace is the opposite of any merit based system.

It is only when I realize that my salvation rests completely in Christ that I bow before Him as Lord. Knowing that I have been born into His family, and no longer a child of Satan.

Noone knows more than a parent the love we give to our children. Even through disobedience and rebellion, our children are still our children. Is there a price to pay for being disobedient? Of course. But does that price include being removed from the family; or is it possibly severe disciplinary action?

Does our loving Father who gave His only begotten Son love us less than our earthly fathers?

Until we grasp the love behind our grace salvation, we will never know that love which is of God.
 
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3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Galatians

When teaching salvation by grace through faith I emphasize very strongly the meaning of grace, long with the meaning of mercy, because mercy is a product of grace.

Very simply, grace is getting from God that which you do not deserve; while mercy is not getting from God, that which you do deserve.

Is there a point in the Christian life that we ever deserve our salvation? Is there a point in our Christian life that we deserve Hell?

The truth is, we NEVER deserve our salvation, and we ALWAYS deserve hell!

There is no point of obedience that allows us to keep that which we have been graciously given; and likewise, there is no point of disobedience that causes us to loose that which we were graciously given.

If the demerits of disobedience are the cause of loss of God's gracious salvation, it really wasn't a grace based salvation; it was a salvation based upon the merits of obedience.

Paul straightway asked, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

If salvation is obtained by grace, it is also maintained by grace ... that is Paul's point.

You cannot claim you can lose through a demerit system of disobedience, when salvation was not obtained by a merit system of obedience.

Merits are earned, not given by grace. Grace is the opposite of any merit based system.

It is only when I realize that my salvation rests completely in Christ that I bow before Him as Lord. Knowing that I have been born into His family, and no longer a child of Satan.

Noone knows more than a parent the love we give to our children. Even through disobedience and rebellion, our children are still our children. Is there a price to pay for being disobedient? Of course. But does that price include being removed from the family; or is it possibly severe disciplinary action?

Does our loving Father who gave His only begotten Son love us less than our earthly fathers?

Until we grasp the love behind our grace salvation, we will never know that love which is of God.

Circumcision Salvationism:

Most misunderstand Paul on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 3:1-13, and Romans 4:1-5; This is because they do not realize that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

God's Grace [Jesus] is the Foundation of our Faith:

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).

Obedience to God [An Outpouring of our Faith] is Essential to Eternal Life:

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:



(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).
 
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If the verses I quote are only talking about Jews under the law and we cannot apply them to all christians you need to prove that point.

I have already proven it. Galatians 2:3 and Galatians 5:2 are talking about the false heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." This was the false heresy at the time that said that you had to first be circumcised in order to be saved vs. placing one's faith in Jesus Christ to be initially saved. Read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24, then read verses like Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, etc. and it will become clear of the context by which Paul speaks when he refers to the Law.

In other words, Paul is referring to the 613 Laws given to Israel as a whole (that has been done away with as a package deal). This does not mean certain laws have not been carried over like the Moral Law (i.e. loving God, and loving your neighbor, i.e. do not steal, do not murder, do not commit adultery, etc.) into the New Covenant or the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

We know Paul is not referring to the commands of Jesus Christ when He speaks of the Law or God's commands because Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud, and they know nothing.

You said:
Most verses in the new testament can apply to all christians (or former Jews). Hebrews was written to hebrew christians, not Jews.

Yes, I am aware that the book (scroll) of Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians. But there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ (Galatians 3:28). Galatians 3:29 says, "if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians was written to christians as well. The point that was brought up is circumcision, and following the law of moses. But all laws that we know that save us are what He is talking about.

Paul was not talking about all laws that save us. Paul was referring to the Old Law because he referred to circumcision (Which is an Old Covenant command that is no longer a binding command under the New Covenant). Christ crucified those ordinances that were against us (like circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, holy days, etc.) (See: Colossians 2:14-17). These are OT ceremonial laws that Christ crucified. For why do you think the temple veil was torn from top to bottom with Christ's death? It was because God was letting us know that the laws on the animal sacrifices and the OT priesthood had ended. The Old Law had ended. But not all Law in all it's forms was to be removed in the New Covenant. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. That is what you do not understand.

Circumcision was just an example, following the law of moses was another example. He was talking to christian Jews. So the examples He used was Jewish, if the audience was gentile He would have used other examples. But the point is we are not saved by works.

No. Circumcision was never commanded by Jesus and His followers. We also know that the New Covenant officially began with Christ's death. Jesus said that the fruit of the vine within the cup that His disciples are to drink of represented His blood that was shed for the New Testament (i.e. New Covenant). A New Covenant means new laws or commands. The Old is no more. You take Paul's words out of context involving "Circumcision Salvationism" so as to justify "Belief Alone-ism." Yet, James says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19); And James says that faith without works is dead (James 2:17).

You said:
James talks about being justified by works, but that is before others.

That is an illogical way to read James 2:24. You would have to break apart James 2:24 in an unusual way in order to make this belief of yours work.

Lets read the verse to see what I am talking about.

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
(James 2:24).

The second half of the verse says we are justified by faith.
Are we justified by faith in God or men?
The answer of course is God.
For we are saved by God's grace through faith in the Lord.

The first half of the verse says we are justified by works.
If we are to remain consistent with the latter half of our talk of "being justified" (i.e. justified by faith in God), then this means we are justified by works before God, too.

Furthermore, James 2 describes how he was justified by his works by offering Isaac upon the altar. What is interesting is that if you were to read that story in Genesis, you would learn that no man was present to witness his work in offering Isaac upon the altar. God actually commended Abraham for his obedience and blessed him, and his seed (and all the nations would be blessed by what he did).

17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice. " (Genesis 22:17-18).

So as a result, Abraham was justified by works before God. For God blessed Abraham by his obedience. For Abraham's obedience led God to directly impact his life and the lives of others.

You said:
If I am to see if someone is saved. I can only only see it by external fruit. But God can see the heart.

Jesus says:

"A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things." (Matthew 12:35).

You said:
You are correct about the mormons denying the trinity. But the trinity is not the only doctrine in which one can be considered unorthodox. Salvation is the primary doctrine of apostate sects.

What you fail to understand is that we must worship God in spirit and in truth. We cannot worship a false god. The mormons obviously think their god is the true god, and that people must worship their god to be a part of their saved little group. A false god can even be one's own sin. One can worship inappropriate content, or lying, or theft, or whatever sin one wants to place above their worship of God. Jesus says why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (See: Luke 6:46). Jesus says by their fruit you will know them (See: Matthew 7:16). So if a person is justifying sin and evil, they are not aligning with God and His good ways. For God cannot justify sin and evil on our behalf. That is not what God's grace was intended for. It doesn't work like that. Jude 1:4 says that there are those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality. This can be justifying any amount of sin with the thinking one is saved. This is a wrong view of God's grace. God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).
 
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that is just talking about salvific repentance, not sinless perfectionism. You don't believe in sinless perfectionism as you say, but you just admitted that you did believe it in the next sentence.

Okay. I said I don't believe that a believer or saint having reached a state of "Sinless Perfectionism" equates with salvation. I said to you before that there is a "sin that does not lead unto death." This means that there is a sin that a believer can commit that does not lead to spiritual death (i.e. the second death or the Lake of Fire). Usually these are minor transgressions or faults of character. In the context of the reading of 1 John 5, it is referring to a grievous sin that a believer is confessing and seeking to overcome with the help and prayers of the other brethren. So if a believer struggled with the grievous sin of "lying," this believer would go to the other brothers and sisters for support and ask for their prayers and help to overcome this kind of sin (While they confess of it to the Lord - See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9). These brethren are to pray so as to give this struggling Christian to have life or victory in overcoming their sin. Read 1 John 5. That is the most logical and consistent way to interpret and understand 1 John 5:16-18. Read the whole chapter over and over and then read the passage in prayer. It will become evident. There is a sin that does not lead unto spiritual death (Which means not all sin is the same, and or not all sin condemns).

You said:
that is what sinless perfectionism is.

I am not actually allowed discuss Sinless Perfectionism (at length) in this section of the forums. You can check out this thread here if you are interested:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

You said:
it is important that we bear fruit, but it's about if we have conviction of sin, or if we are proud over sin.

You said,

"it is important that we bear fruit," ~ Gradyll.

However, at the end of the day, it is not important to bear fruit if one is ultimately saved by having a belief alone in Jesus and not in what they do (like bearing fruit). Many have thought that this way and have done horrible things. One of the biggest proponents of OSAS or Belief Alone-ism was George Sodini. Yet, he murdered a bunch of people and took his own life and wrote in his own suicide letter that he would be saved by having a belief on Jesus despite his evil acts.

George Sodini

You said:
To believe we can lose salvation or maintain it by our performance, when our performance is not how we gained salvation is illogical and self refuting.

George Sodini would agree with what you said here if he was alive today.
But surely the fruit of his life painted a different story of what he claimed to believe.
It turns out that Belief Alone-ism was not something that truly helped him.
 
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that is just talking about salvific repentance, not sinless perfectionism. You don't believe in sinless perfectionism as you say, but you just admitted that you did believe it in the next sentence.



that is what sinless perfectionism is.

it is important that we bear fruit, but it's about if we have conviction of sin, or if we are proud over sin. To believe we can lose salvation or maintain it by our performance, when our performance is not how we gained salvation is illogical and self refuting.

This is a contradiction.

#1. On the one hand, you say that Matthew 25:21, and Matthew 25:30 is dealing with salvific repentance.
#2. On the other hand, you say we are saved by a belief alone in Jesus (with no works).​

Yet, salvific repentance would include good works every time.

Even if a belief alone was for salvation and the works did not save in and of themselves (too), the works would still be necessary to show that one had truly been saved by a belief alone and thus we would have to conclude works is necessary as a part of salvation because no believer can be fruitless or unprofitable and yet also be saved.
 
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If the demerits of disobedience are the cause of loss of God's gracious salvation, it really wasn't a grace based salvation; it was a salvation based upon the merits of obedience.

Paul straightway asked, "Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"

If salvation is obtained by grace, it is also maintained by grace ... that is Paul's point.

You cannot claim you can lose through a demerit system of disobedience, when salvation was not obtained by a merit system of obedience.

That is why I don't believe you can lose salvation through sin. Because Jesus paid for our sin. However one sin He did not pay for that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And even after you have been saved, if you commit that sin, then you get Hell. But it is not about sin, as in the traditional sense of sin. It's about losing faith. Disbelief. You have to believe that every one doubts eventually. They doubt miracles, they doubt God's existence, they doubt the validity of prophecy or the inspiration of the Bible. Doubts are a normal part of Christianity. But when a sin deceives us into defending it, against God. We tend to think "Would God really spoil my fun?" If I enjoy my sin so much, why would God say no to it? And the doubt starts. It starts as a small seed, and if it is watered it grows. The end result is apostacy. Leaving the faith all together. But it starts as a permissive sin. Another type of apostacy is getting saved at a crusade and not getting fed. Soon philosophy class at college gets to you. And your teacher told you about some contradictions in the Bible, and you believed them without studying them. Soon simply because you were not planted, you lost your faith. There are several types of apostacy. None of it is about sin. But it is about losing faith, and eventually you no longer believe in Jesus, and this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
 
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