Aerial Toll Houses issue

Lukaris · Jun 26, 2019

One example I think as to whether a person agrees with this doctrine or not can be found in a statement by St Diadochos of Photiki ( 5th c. AD) & an explanation of it by St. Maximos the Confessor. These are found in vol.1 of the Philokalia. I could not find them together online but in the hard copy print they are together. The online links I have are clumsy but accurate.

For St. Diadochos see statement #100 in the link & do not be alarmed by the terms “Gnostic” in this context (they pertain to general knowledge not heresy). Anyway:

St Diadochos of Photiki, Gnostic Chapters: Chapters 91 - 100

For the summation by St. Maximos, see my post( #76) from another toll thread in our forum:

Aerial toll houses: Heresy or Biblical

Gregory Thompson · Jun 26, 2019

~Anastasia~ said:
There are some similarities between what I've heard Orthodox explain and what you're saying. But I'm not sure if it's exactly the same.

I do know that we would agree that all creation was affected by Adam's sin, and that sin has a cumulative effect in creation.

As a matter of fact, within a community, our sin affects one another in some sense.

As to the rest, someone would need to better understand what you're describing and better know Orthodox teaching on the matter to comment. This that I've said is about all I know from several teachers.

Hmmmm. I've never heard a comment on that. Whether the cumulative effects of sin within creation affect the experiences of individuals upon death?

I mean the demons who confront them would have gotten more experience of how humans can best be attacked over centuries of dealing with us, but I don't think that's what you mean.

And certainly the sins of an individual have affected their own formation so that it affects their own experience at death.

But I am not sure if there is any way that corporate or cumulative sins specifically affect an individual at death. And I'm not sure if anyone addresses this or not?

Thank you for your feedback on this.

When i heard people can be intercepted by demons after their soul leaves their body, this was a different concept to me, I thought born again souls would be automatically in the presence of God after death. So since this paranormal substance that behaves as the bible describes sin is between the body and the place the soul would go, I asked in context of this paradigm of the afterlife ... does this also get in the way of souls?

ArmyMatt · Jun 26, 2019

everyone encounters God at death. the toll houses are simply that the demons come to flatter/tempt/frighten the departing soul to go with them. a sinful life will follow the demons because that very encounter with God will be torment.

and a repentant or godly soul, when seeing the demons, will turn to Christ and His Light will dispel the demons.

~Anastasia~ · Jun 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Thank you for your feedback on this.

When i heard people can be intercepted by demons after their soul leaves their body, this was a different concept to me, I thought born again souls would be automatically in the presence of God after death. So since this paranormal substance that behaves as the bible describes sin is between the body and the place the soul would go, I asked in context of this paradigm of the afterlife ... does this also get in the way of souls?

I've never heard of the cosmic effects of sin having a physical location or having that effect. I'm might have easily missed it, but as far as I know Orthodoxy does not teach this.

There are a number of mentions in Scripture about demons being involved "in the air" and being present locally. That is all I've ever heard about a person encountering upon death.

Be careful not to assume they have too much power though. I think some of the over-literalizing of the tollhouses often leads to that mistake. I think such an error is why many reject or are put off by the teaching of tollhouses, because they misunderstand. And I think they are right to reject an idea that demons have this great power or judgement over the souls of Christians. But it's a misunderstanding. (And one I'm familiar with, because that's how I first encountered tollhouses and the mistake I made as a result.)

☦Marius☦ · Jul 4, 2019

Its only not believed by some Orthodox because modernist Priests like to pretend they know more about the faith then God bearing elders, all of whom confirm this doctrine.

The Soul after Death is an excellent book as well as Councils from the Holy Mountain by St. Anthony's monastery.

Lukaris · Jul 4, 2019

I do not think this is a modernist issue. Our late Metr Philip in our Antiochian Church did not support this doctrine & I do not know what Metr. Joseph thinks ( or cares) about it.

It is not dogma & some of its traditional reference points are questionable like the Theotokos praying to avoid tolls, murky references to hymnography attributed to St. John of Damascus (while his authentic theology has none), the Theodora vision etc.

trulytheone · Jul 4, 2019

Is this the essence of the belief of tollhouses:

° A repentant soul dies and is accompanied by angels. But demons would often accuse the soul, while it is travelling to its heavenly abode, of passed misdeeds and nonexistent sins. But because of the state of this soul, the soul is unaffected and continues on to paradise.

°An unrepentant soul, on other hand, experiences the same harrassments from demons and is affected by them because of the state of his soul.

ArmyMatt · Jul 4, 2019

Lukaris said:
I do not think this is a modernist issue. Our late Metr Philip in our Antiochian Church did not support this doctrine & I do not know what Metr. Joseph thinks ( or cares) about it.

It is not dogma & some of its traditional reference points are questionable like the Theotokos praying to avoid tolls, murky references to hymnography attributed to St. John of Damascus (while his authentic theology has none), the Theodora vision etc.

Metropolitan Joseph supports it. he endorsed the St Anthony's book.

and the Theotokos didn't pray to avoid tolls out of fear or anything.

☦Marius☦ · Jul 4, 2019

trulytheone said:
Is this the essence of the belief of tollhouses:

° A repentant soul dies and is accompanied by angels. But demons would often accuse the soul, while it is travelling to its heavenly abode, of passed misdeeds and nonexistent sins. But because of the state of this soul, the soul is unaffected and continues on to paradise.

°An unrepentant soul, on other hand, experiences the same harrassments from demons and is affected by them because of the state of his soul.

Very simply put (as it should be), it is the test of readiness for theosis.

The Christian who is pious and faithful will not fall because a person may call out in true prayer to the Mother of God or Christ and immediately be lifted out of temptation. Pride is the chief sin so submission to God in prayer and humility makes the demons flee. The purpose of the toll houses is to test the faith of the Christian, not the merit. Sure some great acetics might be able to get through most of the toll houses, but only a truly humble ascetic would be able to get through them all.

It might be heretical to say this but perhaps this is how those few souls who have never heard the name of Christ or are outside the church, but are righteous will be saved. Through their humility and trust in a higher power, and by their ascetic ways.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Sep 8, 2019

Check out this thread OP :

Your View on The Aerial Toll Houses (Orthodox Only Please)

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith · Mar 25, 2020

ArmyMatt said:
and the saints, services, and prayers argue for it. they have more weight than a youtuber

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Aerial Toll Houses issue

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian

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Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

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ArmyMatt

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~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †

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☦Marius☦

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Lukaris

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trulytheone

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ArmyMatt

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☦Marius☦

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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