Do Sabbath Keepers KEEP the Sabbath?

parousia70 said:

Yes, He did...
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I know how this applies to me.
Still waiting for you to explain how you think it applies to you.

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as I said, your THEORY is wrong so you do NOT know...
Matthew 7:21

parousia70 said:

I'm confident our readers have seen enough from us both to come to their own conclusions as to which of us has provided the greater weight of scriptural support.

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Your theories are not scriptural support...

parousia70 said:

So your position is that Laws Given by God, dictated to men and written on parchment are not BINDING to men and can be disregarded as meaningless?

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No--God did. He did away with all the rituals that pointed to the Sacrificial Lamb --they would no longer be needed, Jesus was the fulfillment of them all.

parousia70 said:

To think that Sunday observance of the Lord's Resurrection Day, which has been the constant practice of all Christianity for 2,000 years, might be the mark doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, the radical departure from that true and constant faith offered by the Sabbatarian prophetesses may very well be the mark of the beast.

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What radical departure? The 7th day Sabbath was kept by all first Christians. There is not one verse in the bible that states the 1st day of the week is the Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with celebrating the resurrection of Jesus---but the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord---there is no other. The 7th day Sabbath is not the sabbath of EGW---it is the only day that God hallowed and sanctified from creation week and is kept by other denominations who have nothing to do with EGW and kept long before she was ever born.

mmksparbud said:

What radical departure? The 7th day Sabbath was kept by all first Christians. There is not one verse in the bible that states the 1st day of the week is the Sabbath.

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Again, you are erecting a straw man.

I have never claimed Sunday is now the Sabbath.

The "Radical Departure" is the Mass BOYCOTT of the Sunday Observance of our Lord's resurrection, which is indeed a modern day invention and has no roots in Apostolic teaching, thought or practice..

There is nothing wrong with celebrating the resurrection of Jesus---but the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord---there is no other.

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Excellent.
Keep the Saturday Sabbath...As Paul testifies you are free to do...there is nothing wrong with doing so.
The Saturday Sabbath is not erased, but Colossians 2:15-17 explicitly says it was a shadow and is no longer binding once Christ came.

Just Add Sunday to your worship calendar to Gather, Observe and Honor the Resurrection, following the practice and teaching of all the Apostles and 1900+ years of Apostolic Tradition.

It's not scary. You need not be afraid.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

as I said, your THEORY is wrong so you do NOT know...
Your theories are not scriptural support...

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LOL

Do you Project like this often? or is this a relatively new defense mechanism you have employed?

Accuse your opponent of doing the very thing you are doing so as to obfuscate and dupe the audience into thinking you're not doing it...

Our readers are MUCH smarter than that.
You ought to give them more credit.

parousia70 said:

LOL

Do you Project like this often? or is this a relatively new defense mechanism you have employed?

Accuse your opponent of doing the very thing you are doing so as to obfuscate and dupe the audience into thinking you're not doing it...

Our readers are MUCH smarter than that.
You ought to give them more credit.

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Except I am not the one spouting theories, YOU ARE!

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Except I am not the one spouting theories, YOU ARE!

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So you have chosen to devolve this discussion into a grade school "I know you, are but what am I?
Pffffft!" argument?

Very well then.

You've just earned yourself a coveted spot on my ignore list.

As I said, I'll leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions on who's position is stronger and more grounded in scripture.
I'm fully confident in their ability to do so.

parousia70 said:

The "Radical Departure" is the Mass BOYCOTT of the Sunday Observance of our Lord's resurrection, which is indeed a modern day invention and has no roots in Apostolic teaching, thought or practice..

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Totally wrong---the radical departure if from the 7th day Sabbath to Sunday. There is nothing stated in the bible of keeping Sunday observance for any reason. And history itself proves you wrong. It was not until the Council of Laodicea in 364 that the 7thy day Sabbath was declared anathema to Christ. Before that---Christians kept the 7th day Sabbath and it was only through Catholicism that Sunday became the day to worship God.

Canon XXIX: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

You do not even know you own church's history nor what you church says about the Sabbath.

They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;... Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer
Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority. Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

''The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.'' The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

"All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible." The Catholic Virginian, "To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).

"... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

parousia70 said:

but Colossians 2:15-17 explicitly says it was a shadow and is no longer binding once Christ came.

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You are quite wrong--The Sabbath was never la shadow of things tgo come!! It always pointed backward to creation and to God who created everything.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

parousia70 said:

Just Add Sunday to your worship calendar to Gather, Observe and Honor the Resurrection, following the practice and teaching of all the Apostles and 1900+ years of Apostolic Tradition.

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They neither practiced nor taught any such thing!!
In the New Testament, there are well over 80+ references to the Seventh-Day Sabbath and only 8 references to the First Day of the week. In Acts chapter 18 alone, which was approximately 21 years AFTER the resurrection, you can find the day that Paul was accustomed to keeping holy eluded to 78 times! (see verses 4 & 11 and chapter 17:2 for Paul's customary day of worship).
In regard to the First-Day texts, here they are--Matthew 28:1 // Luke 23:50-56 through 24:1-3 // Mark 16:1-4 // Mark 16:9-11 // John 20:1 // John 20:19 // 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 // Acts 20:7-11. These are the ONLY references to the First-Day of the week. None of which have a commend for a change of the Holy Day, a command for worship, or anything of the sort.
Mark wrote his gospel anywhere from 10-30 years after the cross and mentions not a thing about any change. John's gospel was written about 60 years after Jesus was resurrected and was also silent about any sort of "Holy Day" change. He simply tells of the same event as the other gospel writers. If you notice, Mark 16:1-4 actually refers to both Marys waiting until the Sabbath had past to go anoint Jesus on the First-Day of the week.
Now, in reference to the other two verse sections, 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 & Acts 20:7-11, many different ideas are out there for what these verses really mean. Honestly, the truth is in the texts! In 1 Corinthians 16:1-3, some would say this is an offering being taken at a Sunday (First-Day) morning church service. But the text doesn’t say that. Notice this was an offering “for the saints” and not “of the saints.” Also take note that they were to “lay by him in store.” The actual Greek language reads, “Let each one of you put on one side and store up at home” (Weymouth); “store it up” (ESV); “put aside and save” (NASB). This was not a command to take offerings at church, but to store an offering up at home on Sunday. In other words, Paul was saying to store up an offering FIRST in the beginning of the week so when I (Paul) come, it will be ready for me to take with me. Why store up? 9. Read Acts 11:27-29. There was “great dearth”, or “famine” in Jerusalem. The disciples sent relief to help their “brethren” in Judaea. Also read Romans 15:25-28. This was a relief offering taken to help the Christians in Jerusalem who were experiencing a famine.
Now to Acts 20:7-11. This verse is one that some point to as evidence the disciples were worshiping on Sunday since they were "breaking bread and preaching". Let’s notice several things about this text.
First, preaching and breaking bread DOES NOT make a day holy. I, personally, have broken bread and listened to preaching on almost every day of the week. Breaking bread doesn’t mean they were celebrating a "communion service" at church. Look at Acts 2:46. They broke bread everyday and not just Sunday! In Acts 27:33-35, Paul broke bread with unbelievers. It meant they were simply eating together.
Secondly, this event actually takes place on Saturday night and not Sunday morning as many suppose. Notice Paul preached until midnight, there were "many lights" (it was dark outside), Eutychus fell asleep (it was late at night), and Paul preached until the "break of day" and then went on a trip. That is most likely why they were have food... to celebrate a possible last moment with Paul before he went on his journey.
Also, this was definitely the dark part of the first day of the week. Which would’ve actually been Saturday night (Genesis. 1:5, 8, "and Evening and Morning were the first day."). Paul preached Saturday night and left Sunday morning on a journey. He didn’t go to church on Sunday morning! This actually disproves Sunday keeping since Paul goes on a long journey on Sunday morning and doesn’t "keep it holy".
The Seventh-Day Sabbath was made Holy by God Himself in the creation week. He Rested, be Blessed it, and He Sanctified the Seventh-Day in the beginning. In Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 13:8, the Bible says that God "does not change". Jesus Says "if you love Me, keep My commandments". In Isaiah 66:22 & 23, the LORD tells us that we will be worshiping Him "from one Sabbath to another" in heaven! It was also Jesus custom to worship, go to church, on the Seventh-Day Sabbath (Luke 4:16).
The Sabbath of the Bible was also given way before the first "Jew" existed. Refer to Exodus 16:25-30 to see that the Commandments of God and His Sabbath existed BEFORE Sinai.
So, if it was made Holy at the beginning, it was kept all throughout the Old Testament, Jesus kept it Holy, Paul kept it Holy, the Gentile converts kept it Holy, and the Lord says that we will worship Him on the Sabbath in Heaven, don't you think it is important to keep the Seventh-Day Holy now? After all, it is the 4th Commandment.

mmksparbud said:

You are quite wrong--The Sabbath was never la shadow of things tgo come!!

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Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

When faced with choosing which of these two POLAR OPPOSITE statements to accept as true and correct, that of the infallibly inspired, first century Apostle Paul, or that of random, 21st century, uninspired, internet guy mmksparbud, my money is on the infallible testimony of the apostle, every time.

parousia70 said:

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

When faced with choosing which of these two POLAR OPPOSITE statements to accept as true and correct, that of the infallibly inspired, first century Apostle Paul, or that of random, 21st century, uninspired, internet guy mmksparbud, my money is on the infallible testimony of the apostle, every time.

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Then pay attention to what he says. The feasts of the Jews were called sabbaths. Interesting that you
changed one word, it should read---of the sabbath days: It does not read--or of THE sabbath day.
Again---the Sabbath never pointed to the things to come---it pointed backwards to creation.

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Lev 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
Lev 23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Lev 25:3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;
Lev 25:4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

And that is internet lady---you obviously do not pay attention to details.

parousia70 said:

So you have chosen to devolve this discussion into a grade school "I know you, are but what am I?
Pffffft!" argument?

Very well then.

You've just earned yourself a coveted spot on my ignore list.

As I said, I'll leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions on who's position is stronger and more grounded in scripture.
I'm fully confident in their ability to do so.

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No I am just reiterating that all you have promoted here are your theories that have no scriptural backing. Ignore the truth...nothing new, that is all you have been doing!

I have read some of the posts and it seems like we have some scripture authorities among us.
I would like to ask if any of you have studied 2Cor3:7-11? NIV 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

The King James version states that the ministry engraved on stones was done away. The NIV indicates that the ministry (10 commandments) were transitory or temporary. If Paul has his facts straight, and I am reading correctly, he is telling us that the 10 commandments have been replaced with the ministry of the Spirit. This whole paragraph, to me, is saying that Jews are no longer under the 10 commandments. Of course, Gentiles never were under the Sinai covenant and its laws. Paul here uses the past tense "was" to indicate that it is not now. Again, if Paul is correct then all of you who believe you are obligated to observe the Sabbath given to the Israelites are doing so without any reason.

We are told in 1JN3:19-24 the following: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 if our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us.

What say you?

Bob S said:

NIV 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

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Bob S said:

The NIV indicates that the ministry (10 commandments) were transitory or temporary.

This whole paragraph, to me, is saying that Jews are no longer under the 10 commandments.

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What was transitory was the way the law gets applied to your life (i.e. ministry). Not the law itself.

The ministry of Moses was engraved in letters on stone, the ministry of the Spirit is engraving your heart.

Note, the difference. It's not as you say. The new ministry does not do away with the law, it does away with the way the law is ministered. The law transformed as planed, like a caterpillar into a butterfly. Hebrews 7:12 Yet, at the same time, this new covenant has been given as Law. Hebrews 8:6

First, when we look at the new covenant as is referenced in 2 Cor 3:6 we are given a footnote to Jer 31:31, where if we read the full context we see that it's ministry consists of the law being written upon our hearts, AND our sins being forgiven and forgotten. Not to mention the extreme declaration that Israel will remain the people of God forever. But I digress.(34-36)

So the very covenant (new) deals with the God's laws being written upon our hearts INSTEAD of on stone tablets. But murder is murder, as are all the others including the shabbat. God's righteousness does not change.


What he did was turn it on it's head. Instead of calling us to his laws in hopes that we will appreciate them outwardly he places them within us himself, through faith. It's the function (ministry) of the Spirit and the reason Jesus came to give it. Heaven is in the process of coming down to earth and we are the first fruits of the new ministry (covenant relationship). Revelation 21:2 Revelation 21:10

Before it was earth reaching up to heaven, now it's heaven reaching down to earth. But many Christians have one being replaced by the other, which is not biblical at all. God has declared he will never erase his laws, he establishes his Words forever. Sin is eradicated...laws are not. That is the promise. With no sin the law stands unabated. With no sin the law is fulfilled.

Yeshua came to remove your sin, not the laws of heaven and earth.

I've highlighted the two base functions of the new covenant for you. The law is placed within you, and your sins are forgiven. In fact, it's the very Spirit that dwells within you that is eradicating the sin within your life. As you dwell further and farther with God through the Spirit your relationship grows and your sin fades because it was transitory in your life. Even death, the final outcome of sin, will not remain victorious when Yeshua raises the dead to life again! The Glory you have by faith in Jesus pales in comparison to the Glory of that faith actually operating within you. (i.e. ministry of the Spirit, causing you to become clean through the teaching of his word (commandments)).

Bob S said:

21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: we know it by the Spirit he gave us.

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And what is the ministry of the Spirit doing within your heart? Tossing out all the laws God ever commanded? Accept to believe in Jesus and love others?

The very ministry of the Spirit is to purify you and cleanse you, keeping you clean till the day of your redemption. All the law is hung on two things. Love of God and Love of others. This doesn't mean we cut the rest of the law off. Jesus doesn't come to abolish but to fulfill. Make full to the top.

The ministry of the Spirit, the laws that the Spirit is writing upon your heart daily through a living relationship are the commandments of the God of Israel. The law is transformed and the ministry is different. But love is the fullness of the law, not the absence thereof.

Shimshon said:

Love of God and Love of others. This doesn't mean we cut the rest of the law off. Jesus doesn't come to abolish but to fulfill. Make full to the top.

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Even those commands are originally in the Torah
A house divided can not stand!

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Even those commands are originally in the Torah
A house divided can not stand!

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When Israel says from the heart blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord Yeshua our nation and our people will be reconciled and made new. Purified not repackaged or replaced but made whole, Melah made full, to the greatest extent.

A message of reconciliation not division. Poor Paul his words are forever twisted making him seem double minded. Same letter but opposite direction of what Bob says. Not tossed out reconciled. As one with God.

I do thank both of you for giving me your thoughts on the passages I presented. I did notice that I didn't see where you addressed the fact that the King James version states that the laws written on stone were done away.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

While I respect your thoughts it seems like much was interpreted to fit a certain belief system. Paul's words, according to you, cannot be taken verbatim.

I believe morality is forever. The nine commands of the 10 are certainly moral laws and are part of the new law of love that Jesus gave to us in Jn 15:
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Now concerning the Sabbath, it was part of the ritual laws given to God's chosen people. I for one, have never been pricked by the Holy Spirit for it to be part of my life and I haven't seen this happen to the millions of those who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. Jesus changed my life, but He has not ever challenged me to observe days, weeks, months or years. If those things are really written on our hearts they are hidden someplace.

Was the 10 commandments the ministry of Moses or God? If the ministry of the Spirit is the Law then we are dealing with the same problems Israel had. It would be the same laws warmed over. My understanding of the book of Hebrews on the subject of the new covenant is that it is a better covenant with better promises and not like the old one, the one Jesus kept. Heb 8 seems to be telling us that Jesus came and gave us the new covenant that obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. verse 6

In gleaning the New Testament I have found that the greatest theme to be that of love. The book of John is full of love. Jesus in Eph 2 came and broke the barriors that separated Jews and Gentiles by ending the Law. Eph 2:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul also wrote the great words to the Galatians in Gal3:19 where he reiterated that the law ended with the coming of Jesus. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

There certainly is a lot to ponder and think about my friends. In Matt 5 did Jesus fulfill the law? Paul certainly thought He did. My dictionary indicates that to fulfill means to bring to an end.

Jesus at Calvary ratified the New Covenant with His own blood. Which covenant do you choose? Are we obligated to live under the one one the new relaced?

Shimshon said:

And what is the ministry of the Spirit doing within your heart? Tossing out all the laws God ever commanded?

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No, my friend. Morality is forever. All the laws that concern morality God has instilled on my heart are forever. God only gave one nation 613 laws to observe, that was Israel. No other nation on Earth has ever been given the book of the law. All those laws were never given to me to in order for me to "toss out".

Accept to believe in Jesus and love others?

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Why is it you do not believe the words found in 1Jn? I didn't write that on my own friend. John wrote that as a test. We belong to the truth if.....

The very ministry of the Spirit is to purify you and cleanse you, keeping you clean till the day of your redemption.

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What happened to the blood of Jesus?

All the law is hung on two things. Love of God and Love of others. This doesn't mean we cut the rest of the law off. Jesus doesn't come to abolish but to fulfill. Make full to the top.

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First of all the Law was not given to anyone except the Israelites. The Law didn't concern Gentiles. Jesus came to save the Jews from the ministry of death, the law. Fulfill does not mean "full to the top", You don't fulfill a glass with water. Fulfill means to bring to an end which is exactly what Jesus did on the Cross. He brought the old way to an end and established the new and better way.

The ministry of the Spirit, the laws that the Spirit is writing upon your heart daily through a living relationship are the commandments of the God of Israel.

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Those are your words and are not scriptural.

The law is transformed and the ministry is different. But love is the fullness of the law, not the absence thereof.

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Does that mean I can't shave my sideburns and if I find mold in my house I have to take it down? Where is the priesthood where I can take my tithed animals and crops? Where do I send my wife during her time? If you find me are you obligated to stone me if I refuse to observe the now-defunct holy days?

Will I be able to turn my foot from doing, thinking and saying things on holy days that are not spiritual?

Does the Holy Spirit keep you from disaggregating the holy days as in Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

If that cannot be done, are you really honoring God? What would be the difference if I didn't obey all the old ritual laws that you would impose on me. Wouldn't we all be sinners one way or another? Where there is no law there is no sin. I don't believe there are Sinai ritual laws imposed on me. Jesus blood doesn't have to cover laws that do not exist now, does He?

So much to ponder isn't there.

Bob S said:

No, my friend. Morality is forever. All the laws that concern morality God has instilled on my heart are forever. God only gave one nation 613 laws to observe, that was Israel. No other nation on Earth has ever been given the book of the law. All those laws were never given to me to in order for me to "toss out".


Why is it you do not believe the words found in 1Jn? I didn't write that on my own friend. John wrote that as a test. We belong to the truth if.....


What happened to the blood of Jesus?

First of all the Law was not given to anyone except the Israelites. The Law didn't concern Gentiles. Jesus came to save the Jews from the ministry of death, the law. Fulfill does not mean "full to the top", You don't fulfill a glass with water. Fulfill means to bring to an end which is exactly what Jesus did on the Cross. He brought the old way to an end and established the new and better way.


Those are your words and are not scriptural.


Does that mean I can't shave my sideburns and if I find mold in my house I have to take it down? Where is the priesthood where I can take my tithed animals and crops? Where do I send my wife during her time? If you find me are you obligated to stone me if I refuse to observe the now-defunct holy days?

Will I be able to turn my foot from doing, thinking and saying things on holy days that are not spiritual?

Does the Holy Spirit keep you from disaggregating the holy days as in Is 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

If that cannot be done, are you really honoring God? What would be the difference if I didn't obey all the old ritual laws that you would impose on me. Wouldn't we all be sinners one way or another? Where there is no law there is no sin. I don't believe there are Sinai ritual laws imposed on me. Jesus blood doesn't have to cover laws that do not exist now, does He?

So much to ponder isn't there.

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2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

They are written in the heart---it doesn't say, 9 are written in the heart. As for that pesky 4th commandment, it is not for the Jews alone for it was given at creation, long before any Jew. And the law, both the 10 and the Mosaic law, were to be kept by anyone who joined the Jews in worship of the One true God. The Jews were supposed to be a light to the world of all His ways. They were supposed to convert the world, instead they fell into idolatry and when they did come back to God, they became exclusive instead of inclusive. The 4th itself states it is for the stranger within thy gates. Judaism was never meant strictly for the Jews. God had chosen them to bare His truths to the whole world. They failed.

The 610 laws are not what God gave to Moses---those Levitical laws were all added unto by the Rabbis in minute detail. The 4th never stated that you could only walk so many steps during the Sabbath, it doesn't mention travel at all. The Levitical laws were those that pertained to the coming Messiah---which were to be done away with for He is the fulfillment of them. They were a shadow of things to come:

Eph_2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The yearly feasts were all called sabbaths. The Sabbath, was never a shadow of things to come, it always pointed backward to creation and to the God that created everything---which is Jesus. For He created all things. Jesus instituted it, and only He can change it--and He never said a word about it being changed.

mmksparbud said:

Then pay attention to what he says. The feasts of the Jews were called sabbaths. Interesting that you
changed one word, it should read---of the sabbath days: It does not read--or of THE sabbath day.

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In post #502 you said …"the 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord---there is no other."

mmksparbud said:

Again---the Sabbath never pointed to the things to come---it pointed backwards to creation.

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Lev 16:29 speaks of a sabbath of rest as you quoted below.
Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Lev 16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.


Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was }
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua }
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
This refers to the rest alluded to by Moses
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

mmksparbud said:

Lev 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

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The priesthood of Christ and his apostolic ministers as priests.

32 And Aaron and his sons shall eat the flesh of the ram, and the bread that is in the basket, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
33 And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
And as Hebrews says…. we have an alter to eat from and a portion in...….
Heb 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

I believe this is what Sunday was about for the early Church is the eucharistic assembly by faith in his resurrection As our eternal highpriest.