Pre Eden. Pre creation of this world. When the old boy was in the garden there were no cherubs or angels he ruled over or cities and he was fallen.
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Earth, then light (Big Bang), Created on Day One; Sun, Moon and Stars Created on Day Four
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That is true...Just ask the serpent.
But prior to the fall Satan is described as being in an unfallen state in Eze 28. I posted the verse in this thread a few post back.
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I would say there are two possible interpretations for that. One is that the verse jumps to the future mid verse when it talks about how Satan was in Eden, just after mentioning the time he was created. Jesus read one such verse in the synagogue where this also happened. (jumping into future mid verse). Another possible interpretation could be that the garden of earth was named after another garden somewhere in another creation or heaven etc.
There is no indication in the bible that man existed as a race before the creation of the world and the first man and woman.
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It seems kinda strange to mention Satan as being in the garden of Eden in a fallen state... surrounded by a description of what he was prior to the fall.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
To me this sounds like while in Eden precious stones was his covering...until he got tossed out of heaven.
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It's more than a kinda...it describes Satan in an prefallen state while in the Garden.
Job 38:7 tells us the angels were around during the creation of the world...though it doesn't tell us when they were actually created. The fall of Satan was after day 6 as that's when God planted the garden, though it doesn't say how long after.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
-57,
1. Eden was pre-fallen Satan till iniquity was found in him Ezekiel 28:15.
He sinned in the Garden which was the original creation Genesis 1:1 that was as made out of nothing that existed before Hebrews 11:3.
2. Satan had already sinned before Adam’s creation.
He was already working through the serpent to tempt Eve. He was already a sinful trespasser in Adam’s Eden.
3. I have to to work, but Isaiah 14:12-15 shows why Satan ruled the earth and rose up above the heights of the clouds to fight against God.
If Ezekiel’s Garden was in Heaven he would have been above the heights of the clouds already. Jerry Kelso
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"Satan had already sinned before Adam’s creation."
I don't think that's a true statement. Here's why.
The creation was pronounced as good. Very good. If the fall of Satan occurred prior to the creation of Adam....creation would not have been called good.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:1 shows that the angels...host...were part of creation. The good creation.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
-57,
1. Original creation was made bad by Lucifer who became Satan.
Man’s creation was made bad because of Adam. That is why there had to be the Second Adam Romans 5:12.
So your argument is conjecture and opinion not Bible.
2. I understand the argument of the host of them being angels and what scripture are supposedly proof safe.
I believe in comparison of scripture.
However, there is a thing called context and harmonizing scriptures together on a given subject.
3. The host of them in context are not angels but everything that was created in those seven days. There is not one mention of angels being created or doing anything.
4. The context of Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 shows Lucifer was before man was created which I have touched on before.
You cannot harmonize these passages with Genesis 2:1 or vice versa.
That is why that rendering cannot be true. Jerrykelso
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When you say the original creation was made bad by Lucifer...we can instantly know that's incorrect because the bible doesn't teach that. Can you reference your non-biblical book that story came from?
1 Kings 22:19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and on His left.....Just saying.
Even if host means "entire of creation"....that entirety would include angels.
the Bible say's angels were created...Psalms 148:2 Praise him, all his angels;
praise him, all his hosts! (note: this is a form of Hebrew poetic parallelism)
5 Let them praise the name of the LORD!
For he commanded and they were created.
Angels are created beings.
I agree, angels were created before man. Lucifer was an angel.
As God explained to Job...
Job 38:4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell me, if you have understanding........7when the morning stars sang together
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
The angels were there when God laid the foundation of the earth
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
-57,
1. Genesis 1:2.
I love the KJV but one has to understand that the Bible is translated from Hebrew and Greek.
I have already explained Genesis 1:1 was the original creation made out of things that didn’t exist. Hebrews 11:3.
Genesis 1:2 was in judgement as the scriptures I showed.
2. I understand the different scriptures on the host of them concerning the heavenly host.
1Kings was talking about the heavenly host in Heaven where God sits on the throne. This is not talking about the atmospheric Heaven and planet earth in Genesis 1:1.
3. Angels had to be created before Adam’s creation and you agree with that. But it was not during Adam’s creation.
That’s why the host of them in Genesis 2 are not the angels because they were already created before man’s creation week.
Lucifer sinned before Adams creation according to Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28. So you are wrong to not believe the scripture.
3. In the context of Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 shows Satan created before man till iniquity was found in him. He defiled the sanctuaries whether you believe they were pre-adamite men or angels.
This was before the 7 days of Adams creation.
Lucifer had to rise above the height of the clouds to get to the north sides of he congregation in Heaven where God resides. This proves he came from the earth and was kicked back down to earth.
He had a throne and wanted to exalted it above God. Throne stand for authority of ruler ship. This is is the perfect reason to understand why Lucifer would want to resell against God. He was the instigator to get many of those of the angels to rebel with him.
4. God had a reason to recreate earth and man.
This deals with the Great Confrontation between Lucifer and God.
Lucifer lost his earthly rule and became prince of the power of the air Ephesians 6:12.
God’s creation of free wills have to be tested to see if they truly love him.
Satan day didn’t love God.
Adam and Eve had to be tested and their test was to not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Of course Satan was working through the serpent to thwart the plan of God.
He might have thought he won but God made a way to keep his redemptive plan to keep going.
Genesis 3:15 is the first prophecy of Satan being defeated at the cross. He lost the spiritual battle concerning redemption then and there.
He will continue this fight till he is thrown into the lake of fire Revelation 20:10 which was prepared for him and his angels Matthew 25:41.
5. Yes the angels were there when God laid the foundations of the earth for they were created before man.
The angels were a different order at a completely different time that was before man’s creation. Jerry Kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
dad,
1. Can you show when the earth was completely without form and void meaning desolate and empty and had no man, birds, fruitful places destroyed and not remain?
When was the sun, moon, and stars forbidden to give light permanently?
The mountains and hills have been shaken and moved and will be in the future but never left in the state as mentioned above?
2. I didn’t mention judgement in creation week.
Original creation was finished in the beginning Genesis 1:1. Judgement came afterward in Genesis 1:2 because of Lucifer’s sin and before Adam’s creation that started in verse 3.
3. A society? Ezekiel 28:18 sanctuaries were Lucifer’s subjects and defiled in Lucifer’s rebellion.
Man? Adam and Eve were told to replenish Genesis 1:28. Compare Genesis 9:1; Isaiah 2:6; 23:2; Jeremiah 31:25; Ezekiel 26:2; 27:25.
4. Yes, Adam is the first man to be named in Adam’s creation Genesis 1:3-27.
5. I am well aware of your definition of replenish. However, the scriptures show replenish as being plenished again which Adam and Eve did since the sanctuaries of men in the pre-adamite world were destroyed Ezekiel 28:18.
Also, the law of first mention is shown that in Genesis 1:28 and repeated in Genesis 9:1 with Noah.
Adam was a new generation Genesis 1:3-28 because of judgement on the Luciferian world Genesis 1:2.
Noah had to start a new generation because of judgment on the antediluvian period of men. He and his family had to replenish earth with more people.
So your definition doesn’t override the context.
6. Jeremiah 4 was a prophecy at the time written and fulfilled by Nebuchadnezzar v7, v 13. Verses 19:22 was the alarm and why they would receive judgement.
Vs.23-27 is about the original chaos. Why? To show what kind of chaos they would face but God would not make a full end Jeremiah 4:27 to them as in Genesis 1:2. Isaiah 14:12-14 and 2 Peter 3:5-8 which I have already explained.
Vs. 27-31; Judah would be made desolate but not a full end in the days of Nebuchadnezzar as already shown.
Even if it is applied to the future Judah as in Isaiah 24:1-12 it will not be to a full end.
7. I understand about the young earth scenario of creation.
It doesn’t fit with the pre-adamite world and it’s judgement Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-19; 2 Peter 3:5-8 etc.
8. The original creation in Genesis 1:1 was spoken into existence out of nothing that existed not in a process. Jerry Kelso
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Yes..in the future.
Future, of course.
Mic 1:4 - And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
Re 16:20 -And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Isa 2:19 - And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
Isa 13:13 - Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Eze 38:20 - So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
etc etc etc..
Day three was, for your information, part of the six day creation. By chapter 2 it was all finished. That included all the days.
So you claim there were what, -- demons with cities on earth!?
Be clear, the first man, or the first man just to get a name!?
I gave the translation from Hebrew.
No, Adam was clearly created and Eve created from the man on day 5 of creation week. Noah followed many many centuries later and we can trace his fathers back to Adam. Not to some imaginary demon city!
Noah also was told to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. Nothing to do with some imaginary limbo time of earth existing before God created it in creation week. (or in some imaginary time inserted between days of creation week!)
False. It obviously is not fulfilled yet any more than the wrath of God has come and gone already.
Nothing remotely similar to that is spoken about in Gene actually. You inserted that whole fantasy and it flies in the face of the rest of the bible. You also need to assault beautiful prophetic chapters in the attempt to get something that sort of sounds like it could possibly fit into your invented inserted dream world before creation.
Sorry, but Israel being punished has nothing to do with creation. The chaos after a judgment also is not like the world before plants and people even existed!
Hey, look at the end of the chapter! That is about a very full end!
18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
In case this is news, Jesus is not ruling the planet from Jerusalem.
You are simply picking out one day of creation and trying to make it sound like the other 5 days are talking about something else.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
dad,
1. I said and not remain.
In the tribulation there will still be man and vegetation and animals etc.
The laws of the sun, moon and stars and earth will still be intact despite these physical occurances.
They will not be destroyed to a full end.
The Heaven’s will be blacked but not totally as in Genesis 1:2. The future darkness will be 5 times Revelation 6:12. This doesn’t mean distinction.
2. I believe in Day 3 of Adam’s creation.
Adam was the first man and first man named for Adam’s creation.
Jeremiah 4:23 mention’s man and this passage is in Genesis 1:2; Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Peter 3:5-8.
3. Adam was created on the sixth day not the fifth day.
Noah can be traced back to Adam. I never mentioned demon cities. You made that up.
4. Obviously you don’t believe in the law of first mention.
Adam was told to replenish the earth first, then Noah was told to replenish the earth and that meant also to repopulate people.
5. Your problem is you don’t understand proper context and proper hermeneutics. This is why you can’t understand what I have shown according to the scriptures.
You are making personal accusations and not defending by scriptures such as in Jeremiah 4 and you don’t understand history and that is why you don’t understand the immediate context.
6. I never mentioned Jesus ruling from Jerusalem right now.
7. You are not making any sense about picking out one day and making the other 5 sound like they’re talking about something else.
The full end comment among others are cute but not truth.
You need to learn proper hermeneutics so you can rightly divide the word. Jerry kelso
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Murray J
Active Member
Erets translated Earth in Genesis 1 should be translated Land not (Planet) Earth. Elohim brought the land (between the Nile and Euphrates which he later gave to Abraham) out of the sea in v10, just as he had brought its sky out too from the same place. The sea pre-existed the Sky and Land.
Genesis was written down by Moses to help the Children of Jacob know their history from their forefathers Adam and Noah,. They were all Adams. Adam was the first Adam and Jesus was the last Adam. The bible is the history of Adamkind, not Mankind. All the Hebrew references translated 'man' are actually 'adam.'
Attached is my Genesis 1 Commentary to explain what happened.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
murray,
1. I read your Genesis 1 commentary.
It seems you believe in a young earth position. Is that right?
I draw this conclusion from the history of Adamkind not man seeing your basis is Moses writing in the context and purpose for Hebrew history seeing that you believe earth being dry land is just the garden area and not the entire planet.
Is this in the ballpark? Jerry Kelso
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I am sure the creation did not just happen in six days. I believe God took much time and interests to create the ecology and varieties of trees and vegetation , then design the multitude of living creatures and animals. The word "day" means "stage", But the Scripture use the word "day" because "day"t fit the prose of writing in religious manuscript, but "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 certainly does not mean a 24-hour day. In other words, "day" is figurative, not literal.
The real creation might have taken years, decades or 100s or 1000s of years. Humans are finite, we live one generation - usually less than 90 years - and we think short term. But God is timeless and HE is not rushed by time. Why would HE create millions of fauna and creatures in 6x24 hours?
Instead God take interests and pleasure to plan out and create the many varieties of fauna and vegetation. Then He designed the multitude of creatures - He took much interests and pleasure to make their appearance and characteristics , and also to put it all together.
An analogy: Think of people who love to assemble models of planes, tans or figures. They wouldn't want to buy a ready all-finished models -- instead, they enjoy the processing of putting the pieces together, then paint them. Same for people that enjoy assembling a 1000-pieces jigsaw puzzle - the process takes time, it is slow, but to them it is interesting and intriguing.
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