Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

nolidad · Jul 3, 2019

jgr said:
Which of those definitions applies to Colossians 1:23?

And you still haven't told us how your Greek is superior to Thayer's.

Well if Paul was being truthful and honest and not being allegorical (which there is no linguisatic evidence he was) then the thrid definition can only be the correct one.

Definition 1 is action and you don't preach to action.

Two is all created things! That means bugs and plants and fish etc.

The third is institutions of heaven! (under is translated of as many times as under) ! This is othe only one that makes any literal sense!

Paul spoke of preaching to families and the members of families, govts. and Jews (the three institutions of God in His day) But to say that North and South Americans, Asians, Indians, Mongols, Huns, and all the countries south of the egypt area just is completely illogical from biblical perspective given the slow methods it took to travel.

Paul was imprisoned in 60A.D. so he wrote the Epistle to the Colossians in the 50's (His last letters were the pastoral epistles)

So you are saying that from Pauls conversion and his teaching by Jesus directly (c. 40 A.D.) in under 20 years the gospel reached all 6 inhabited continents. Maybe the modern church should learn from them. For we still have yet to reach over 200 people groups still in our times with all of our technology and you seem to think that the church could reach all six continents and people groups in their day in under 25 years!

nolidad · Jul 3, 2019

mkgal1 said:
It seems, first, beginning from a biased narrative and seeing what fits within that boundary.

Well if you call translating from language to another biased- that is your problem. But I will not just throw ideas in to fit my ideas. I work diligently to let the words of Scripture as translated from the originals to form my opinions.

nolidad · Jul 3, 2019

mkgal1 said:
This explanation isn't even included in your preferred lexicon. IOW - it's based on YOUR reasoning - your opinion. I'll still remain with St Paul.

look again!

Colossians 1:23 (KJV)
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

mkgal1 · Jul 3, 2019

nolidad said:
BTW You are believing Thayers opinion and not Pauls or mine!

I disagree. I'm allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and the entire theme I see running throughout the entire Bible is that God desired for ALL OF HIS CREATION to be reconciled to Him. That's the plot of the story that I see. Equally, with justice, with NO preference given to one group or another.

jgr · Jul 3, 2019

nolidad said:
The third is institutions of heaven! (under is translated of as many times as under) ! This is othe only one that makes any literal sense!

That would be your opinion. Since neither Vine nor any lexicographer other than Thayer has cited Colossians 1:23 specifically and explicitly, then in the absence of any credible evidence to the contrary, his rendering stands.

And as mkgal1 has fittingly observed, Thayer's rendering supports Paul's declaration.

The choice:
1. Paul
2. nolidad

Easy decision.

nolidad said:
Paul spoke of preaching to families and the members of families, govts. and Jews (the three institutions of God in His day) But to say that North and South Americans, Asians, Indians, Mongols, Huns, and all the countries south of the egypt area just is completely illogical from biblical perspective given the slow methods it took to travel.

"Slow methods" or not, they traveled.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Jews knew how to travel.

So did everyone else.

mkgal1 · Jul 3, 2019

nolidad said:
Well if you call translating from language to another biased- that is your problem. But I will not just throw ideas in to fit my ideas. I work diligently to let the words of Scripture as translated from the originals to form my opinions.

The trouble I see with using that as a general rule of interpretation is that language is more about expression of story (I believe).

When you pick out specific words and translate a word at a time - you're going to come into difficulty when you get to idioms or an expression of a thought that has metaphors. Also.....just look at our modern language use (personally, I only speak one language - and that's often difficult enough to understand another person speaking my same language in the same era). In my lifetime....the word "bad" can mean two different and opposing things, depending on the usage....but how do we KNOW the meaning? Kids these days often use the idiom "I'm dead" in response to something. Does that mean it's good - they think it's funny - or what? Getting on Google translate isn't going to fill you in on what they meant. You need more information.

I don't believe that you're making up your OWN interpretations.....but I do believe you are following a biased belief system that has formed a sort of road map for you to follow (which, I'll admit, we may not be able to ever get away from having some sort of leaning or bias).

jgr · Jul 3, 2019

keras said:
Sheer foolishness!
You make yourself look silly, by this assertion. Did tribesmen from the Amazonian jungle come to the Apostles? Even today, missionaries haven't evangelized every people group.

The final fulfilment of the prophecy that all people will hear the Gospel, will happen when the 144,000 go out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to the world, Isaiah 66:19, and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Revelation 14:1-7

Real easy choices today.

1. Saint Paul
2. Saint keras

No sweat.

jgr · Jul 3, 2019

keras said:
Sheer foolishness!
You make yourself look silly, by this assertion.

And completely Scriptural.

1 Corinthians 4
10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

Paul was a fool for Christ's sake. So am I.
But not you; you are wise in Christ.

Paul was weak. So am I.
But not you; you are strong.

Paul was despised. So am I.
But not you; you are honourable.

So when Paul said "we", he wasn't including "you".
Rejoice and be exceeding glad.

keras · Jul 3, 2019

jgr said:
And completely Scriptural.

Obviously there is a real world and there is a jgr world.
Do you really deny that there are people today and there were peoples 2000 years ago, that are so remote, that they have not heard the Gospel yet?

jgr · Jul 3, 2019

keras said:
Obviously there is a real world and there is a jgr world.
Do you really deny that there are people today and there were peoples 2000 years ago, that are so remote, that they have not heard the Gospel yet?

Better exhume Paul and confirm his self-diagnosis of the fool.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

keras said:
Sheer foolishness!
You make yourself look silly, by this assertion. Did tribesmen from the Amazonian jungle come to the Apostles? Even today, missionaries haven't evangelized every people group.

The final fulfilment of the prophecy that all people will hear the Gospel, will happen when the 144,000 go out in pairs, Luke 10:1-10, to the world, Isaiah 66:19, and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Revelation 14:1-7

Other than points of eschatology- you and I have much in sync.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I disagree. I'm allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture and the entire theme I see running throughout the entire Bible is that God desired for ALL OF HIS CREATION to be reconciled to Him. That's the plot of the story that I see. Equally, with justice, with NO preference given to one group or another.

Ande He progressed to that!

Remember after Israel was born as a nation- no gentile could be saved without becoming a Jew (proselyte) They were without hope and without God in the World as Paul said.

You are being silly if you allow Scripture to translate the greek for you! Scripture does translate itself when it comes to signs, Parables and symbols. But We are talking different languages and the Bible does not have a built in translator to it! If you have one, I want one! I spend lots of time on language sites looking up definitiopns of words and their etymology and how the word was used 2000 years ago and not today!

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

jgr said:
That would be your opinion. Since neither Vine nor any lexicographer other than Thayer has cited Colossians 1:23 specifically and explicitly, then in the absence of any credible evidence to the contrary, his rendering stands.

And as mkgal1 has fittingly observed, Thayer's rendering supports Paul's declaration.

The choice:
1. Paul
2. nolidad

Easy decision.

"Slow methods" or not, they traveled.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

Jews knew how to travel.

So did everyone else.

Well then you fit Peters language well in his letter- willingly ignorant. I gave you links and you ignore them. Maybe you should be called ostrich- cause it appears you wish to bury your head in the sand on this issue.

If Paul had used the word Kosmos or ethnos. I would agree with you- but He didn't He used Ktisis which nowhere is TRANSLATED as humans!

but for those not as apparently stubborn as you :

Ktisis - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard
Strong's Greek: 2937. κτίσις (ktisis) -- creation (the act or the product) a comparison of multiple sources.

Ktisis

The Greek word ktisis is normally translation as "creation." The verb form is ktizō, to create. The word ktisis is not found in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament. The verb ktizō is used sixty-six times in the Greek Old Testament.

Any good lexicon will tell you that the Greek word ktisis was used by ancient Greek speakers to refer to the establishment or founding of political dominions such as city states or kingdoms especially with respect to their authority structure. The idea is that any political domain, such as a city or a kingdom, is founded upon its authority structure.

GREEK WORD STUDIES κτίσις, 'ktisis' meaning 'creation' 2937

Define ktisis | Definition for word ktisis Vine's Greek New Testment Dictionary ktisis

And here are all 19 occurences of Ktisis in the new Testament>

Strong's concordance
There are 19 occurrences in 19 verses of Strong's number G2937 (κτίσις - ktísis) in the greek concordance of the KJV :

Mark 10 : 6 But from the beginning of the creation [κτίσεως - ktiseōs] God made them male and female.
Mark 13 : 19 For those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of thecreation [κτίσεως - ktiseōs] which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mark 16 : 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [κτίσει - ktisei]
Romans 1 : 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation [κτίσεως - ktiseōs] of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 1 : 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [κτίσει - ktisei] more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 8 : 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [κτίσεως - ktiseōs] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Romans 8 : 20 For the creature [κτίσις - ktisis] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected in hope,
Romans 8 : 21 Because the creature [κτίσις - ktisis] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Romans 8 : 22 For we know that the whole creation [κτίσις - ktisis] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Romans 8 : 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, [κτίσις - ktisis] shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Corinthians 5 : 17 Therefore if any man in Christ, a new creature: [κτίσις· - ktisis] old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 6 : 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. [κτίσις - ktisis] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: [κτίσεως - ktiseōs]
Colossians 1 : 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, which was preached to every creature [κτίσει - ktisei] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Hebrews 4 : 13 Neither is there any creature [κτίσις - ktisis] that is not manifest in his sight: but all things naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Hebrews 9 : 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; [κτίσεως - ktiseōs]
1 Peter 2 : 13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance [κτίσει - ktisei] of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
2 Peter 3 : 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as from the beginning of the creation. [κτίσεως - ktiseōs]
Revelation 3 : 14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation[κτίσεως - ktiseōs] of God;

So why don't you give us what Authority Thayer has to go against all this.

jgr · Jul 4, 2019

nolidad said:
If Paul had used the word Kosmos or ethnos. I would agree with you- but He didn't He used Ktisis which nowhere is TRANSLATED as humans!

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Mark 16 : 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [κτίσει - ktisei]

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Romans 8 : 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature [κτίσεως - ktiseōs] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Romans 8 : 20 For the creature [κτίσις - ktisis] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected in hope,

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Romans 8 : 21 Because the creature [κτίσις - ktisis] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Romans 8 : 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, [κτίσις - ktisis] shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Humans here:

nolidad said:
2 Corinthians 5 : 17 Therefore if any man in Christ, a new creature: [κτίσις· - ktisis] old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Galatians 6 : 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Humans here:

nolidad said:
Colossians 1 : 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, which was preached to every creature [κτίσει - ktisei] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

What other than "human" is meant where "creature" is used?

Your argument is invalidated by your own evidence.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The trouble I see with using that as a general rule of interpretation is that language is more about expression of story (I believe).

When you pick out specific words and translate a word at a time - you're going to come into difficulty when you get to idioms or an expression of a thought that has metaphors. Also.....just look at our modern language use (personally, I only speak one language - and that's often difficult enough to understand another person speaking my same language in the same era). In my lifetime....the word "bad" can mean two different and opposing things, depending on the usage....but how do we KNOW the meaning? Kids these days often use the idiom "I'm dead" in response to something. Does that mean it's good - they think it's funny - or what? Getting on Google translate isn't going to fill you in on what they meant. You need more information.

I don't believe that you're making up your OWN interpretations.....but I do believe you are following a biased belief system that has formed a sort of road map for you to follow (which, I'll admit, we may not be able to ever get away from having some sort of leaning or bias).

Well you seem to rely alot on your opinion.

Language conveys information! What kind of information depends on how language is used. If something was written in another language we must have one translate to our language if we cannot do so oursleves.

Then we can see what kind of information is being conveyed.

I believe God said what He meant and meant what He said when He inspired the writers of His Word! I believe in symbolism, and apocalyptic language and allegories . Gos made it clear whern He used those and yes Scripture defines those- but if they were written in Greek- we need a trnalsation into English to know what was written unless we know the Koine Greek!

I have many volumes of Messdianic Jews who are scholars who have written extensively on teh times of Christ and the use of language in that day- inclusing Jewish idioms!

I have taught a class on the life of christ from Hebrew Persepective in bible Institute as well!

If you wish to know idiomatic usage of language- there are many fine works out there for you to stuidy.

Jews had no where near the idiomsd English does but there are excellent works out there that shows where they are used in Scripture!

jgr · Jul 4, 2019

nolidad said:
So why don't you give us what Authority Thayer has to go against all this.

Here are six translations that concur with Thayer:

CEV

But you must stay deeply rooted and firm in your faith. You must not give up the hope you received when you heard the good news. It was preached to everyone on earth, and I myself have become a servant of this message.

ERV

And that is what will happen if you continue to believe in the Good News you heard. You must remain strong and sure in your faith. You must not let anything cause you to give up the hope that became yours when you heard the Good News. That same Good News has been told to everyone on earth, and that’s the work that I, Paul, was given to do.

EXB

This will happen if you continue ·strong [grounded; established] and ·sure [firm; steadfast] in your faith. You must not ·be moved [shift; drift] away from the hope ·brought to you by [or found in; L of]the ·Good News [the Gospel] that you heard. That same ·Good News [Gospel] has been ·told [preached; proclaimed] to ·everyone [L every creature; or in all creation] ·in the world [L under heaven], and I, Paul, ·help in preaching [L am a servant/minister of] it.

ICB

And Christ will do this if you continue to believe in the Good News you heard. You must continue strong and sure in your faith. You must not be moved away from the hope that Good News gave you. That same Good News has been told to everyone in the world. I, Paul, help in preaching that Good News.

NCV

This will happen if you continue strong and sure in your faith. You must not be moved away from the hope brought to you by the Good News that you heard. That same Good News has been told to everyone in the world, and I, Paul, help in preaching that Good News.

WE

But you must keep on believing and stand strong and true. Let nothing shake the hope which the good news brought you. You heard the same good news as is told to everyone in the whole world. I, Paul, was given the work of telling that same good news.

I'm sure you would agree that "everyone on earth/in the whole world" includes "men of every race".

And that "everyone" and "men" are human.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

jgr said:
Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Humans here:

Only Mark 16 is people! and that is more kingdom or territory than people! Which is perfectly aligned with institution.

The rest is all creation sorry .

But I did notice you used all modern versions that have erred.

the fat you believe that people crossed the Atlantic and Pacific to be in teh Roman Empire within 25 years of the church being born is well remarkable!
this is not the place to get into bibliology but a Childrens bible? really?

What other than "human" is meant where "creature" is used?

Your argument is invalidated by your own evidence.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

jgr said:
Here are six translations that concur with Thayer:

CEV

But you must stay deeply rooted and firm in your faith. You must not give up the hope you received when you heard the good news. It was preached to everyone on earth, and I myself have become a servant of this message.

ERV

And that is what will happen if you continue to believe in the Good News you heard. You must remain strong and sure in your faith. You must not let anything cause you to give up the hope that became yours when you heard the Good News. That same Good News has been told to everyone on earth, and that’s the work that I, Paul, was given to do.

EXB

This will happen if you continue ·strong [grounded; established] and ·sure [firm; steadfast] in your faith. You must not ·be moved [shift; drift] away from the hope ·brought to you by [or found in; L of]the ·Good News [the Gospel] that you heard. That same ·Good News [Gospel] has been ·told [preached; proclaimed] to ·everyone [L every creature; or in all creation] ·in the world [L under heaven], and I, Paul, ·help in preaching [L am a servant/minister of] it.

ICB

And Christ will do this if you continue to believe in the Good News you heard. You must continue strong and sure in your faith. You must not be moved away from the hope that Good News gave you. That same Good News has been told to everyone in the world. I, Paul, help in preaching that Good News.

NCV

This will happen if you continue strong and sure in your faith. You must not be moved away from the hope brought to you by the Good News that you heard. That same Good News has been told to everyone in the world, and I, Paul, help in preaching that Good News.

WE

But you must keep on believing and stand strong and true. Let nothing shake the hope which the good news brought you. You heard the same good news as is told to everyone in the whole world. I, Paul, was given the work of telling that same good news.

I'm sure you would agree that "everyone on earth/in the whole world" includes "men of every race".

And that "everyone" and "men" are human.

these are all called dynamic equivalent translations! For the most part when they veer frokm the literal translation of the word in greek- it tends to be garbage! NOt always ,but many many times.

OUtside of thayers lexicon- no other reputable lexicon translates ktisis as human race! And even thayer does it almost as an aside in his lexicon.

Teh apostle Paul was not a moron! Teh weord Ktisis as used in those days had the three meanins shown by all other lexicons and greek dictionaries.

If Paul wanted to say people groups or tribes or nations- the word ethnos would have been used as He used it many times. Even Kosmos is an acceptable word for that can be defined as organized systems (meaning govts. or societies)

jgr · Jul 4, 2019

nolidad said:
these are all called dynamic equivalent translations! For the most part when they veer frokm the literal translation of the word in greek- it tends to be garbage! NOt always ,but many many times.

Riiiiight. God's Word, which He declared will not return void, is garbage.

Your claim that "institutions" is the intended meaning, is risible. The word does not appear in a single English Bible translation (including Darby and Scofield).

You have yet to produce any credible testimony, by any credible testifier, that Thayer's rendering is invalid.

Still waiting.

nolidad · Jul 4, 2019

jgr said:
Riiiiight. God's Word, which He declared will not return void, is garbage.

Your claim that "institutions" is the intended meaning, is risible. The word does not appear in a single English Bible translation (including Darby and Scofield).

Not Gods Word- but some of mens translations are!

And yes it does not appear anywhere, but taking each definition as established for centuries- we find which one is the most reasonable in that passage!

The act of creating makes no sense!
the Word has gone out to all creation makes no sense

How about the more modern dynamic translation- every tribe of men? Makes no sense- NOrth Americans or south Americans building ocean going vessels in the first century?
Chinese? Indians? Celts, Russians , Mongols? We have recorded history of when these nations were first approached with the gospel. And there is no account that people had heard it because someone from those areas prior to 60 A.D. went to Jerusalem or some part of teh Roman Empire that Paul had gotten to or Titus or Barnabas.''So institutions- govts. familes, Gentiles, Jews,

Did the event of 1948 Israel fulfill any Bible prophecy?

Did event of Israel 1948 fulfill any Bible prophecy?

No

Yes

I don't know

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