Grace is how God provided the means for salvation, thru the free gift of Jesus on the cross.
Faith is how we appropriate that gift, by ceasing from our works, and simply trusting in that gift as the means of our salvation.
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The real purpose of water baptism in the NT
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Grace is how God provided the means for salvation, thru the free gift of Jesus on the cross.
Faith is how we appropriate that gift, by ceasing from our works, and simply trusting in that gift as the means of our salvation.
When you say water baptism is still required today, what exactly do you mean by required? Required for salvation as a necessary condition?
For example, if a person believes in Jesus's death burial and resurrection for his justification but is not water baptized at any point after that, what will happen to him?
As for your other point, the term Gospel means good news. Even though both are centered around Jesus Christ, the good news preached in the 4 Gospels to the Jews, is not the same good news that was given to Paul to preach to the Gentiles.
Paul in Galatians was emphasizing that the GOK is no longer valid, and only his gospel is the true one. That was determined during Acts 15 the Jerusalem council, Galatians was written after Acts 15. Acts was a transitional book between the 2 gospels that were concurrently running at the same time.
If you don't accept this, we can agree to disagree, as discussing this will be way off topic.
Btw, you cannot control what people choose to respond to, on an Internet discussion, so there is no need to get agitated. You also ignored my point about Luke 7:29-30 but I give you the freedom to do that as this is the Internet. =)
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I already explained it but again it is like you have blinders on, ignoring what I and others are saying. My prior posts show that the water baptism, whether it be John the Baptists or water baptism that Jesus commanded should be done to every disciple after they believe (and shown throughout the Acts & epistles & the writings of the early church fathers) in Christ & turn from the sin & turn to Christ to save them.
Water baptism does not save someone, by God's mercy & grace through faith in Christ--is what saves someone. Once a now spiritually born again believer (regenerated by the Holy Spirit & made spiritually alive in Christ, receiving the new creation).
Water baptism is required of those who believe because Christ commanded it to be done. It is an identification with Jesus Christ in His death, burial & resurrection. Peter in I Pet 3:18 describes that it saves in the sense that--now we have believed in Christ & been washed in regeneration, cleansing of our heart & conscience & forgiven of our sins--that water baptism is now an appeal to God for a clean conscience.
Water baptism is our calling card to the world. I openly identify myself as a follower of Jesus Christ, confessing my faith in Him publicly & I now identify with Him in His death, burial & resurrection.
It is an outward sign or type of the inward reality of Spirit baptism. I no longer am of the world but separated from it. My obedience to get water baptized by the command of Christ, is that i now follow Christ & am His disciple.
Many people in eastern countries that become a Christian may not suffer the severe persecution at first but once they are water baptized publicly, then they have crossed the line from a private belief to a public belief & following of Christ, in direct opposition to their former beliefs.
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The context is that those who ask for a certificate of compliance of abandoning mammon and serving God instead, of a good conscience, from God are those who know they are joining a community where eventually, when they hear God's voice, they must demonstrate so that God will know, that He can ask for the most precious things in their lives, and receive it. Terms of peace delay a surrender, they don't do away with it.
Acts 5
13None of the others dared join them, although the rest of the people continued to hold them in high regard.
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We attach different meanings to the term "requirement" then.
For the Jews in GOK days, if they refused to get water baptized, they will be cut off from salvation. (Luke 7:29-30, Mark 16:16) That is what I mean by requirement. Its like if you are a Jew and you refused to be circumcised, you are cut off from the Jewish Nation. (Genesis 17:9-14)
For you, its more of trying to obey what you think Christ is commanding you to do so. But I can understand where you are coming from since you don't distinguish between the GOK for the Jews and Paul's gospel for the Gentiles, and lump them both together.
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And how do we best show our appreciation and gratitude for that grace shown us by which we receive the free gift of salvation through Christ?
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I need to make this clear to all reading these posts. The use of an abbreviation, GOK, is deliberate & misleading. GOK stands for the gospel of the kingdom & is being taught as 'another gospel' than the one that Paul preached.
What is not being said is that the GOK to a 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalist' is a grace plus works gospel (taught by Jesus & the 12) whereas another gospel, the gospel of Paul taught by grace through faith, when Paul was taught the Gospel of Christ by Christ Himself!
Jesus is God! God does not teach more than one gospel nor that water baptism is necessary, a requirement for salvation for Jewish believers ONLY, like breathing is required to live.
Most all Christians from all the various branches teach ONE GOSPEL, the one taught by Jesus & the apostles & the prophets & it is the same gospel taught by Paul. There are not two gospels as even Paul himself said in Galatians 1.
This is dangerous teaching & Scripture says we are to warn others of those teaching more than one gospel. Paul states that this is so dangerous that those who persist in teaching more than one gospel are to be accursed! One can not get any plainer nor more serious than that.
This 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalim' teaching is a recent teaching that emerged in the the 1800's & is not the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Here is a good website that shows what they teach & how they respond when corrected.
Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
Continuing on, Peter never mentioned water baptism as necessary & required by your definition--for Jewish believers to be saved but is the same gospel & the same message for both Jewish believers & Gentile believers to believe in in order to be saved.
Acts 15:7-11 Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice AMONG US, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL & BELIEVE. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as HE DID UNTO US; 9And put NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore why TEMPT YE GOD, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But WE BELIEVE THAT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.
The Apostle Peter did NOT ADD that it was NECESSARY & REQUIRED that Jewish believers MUST be water baptized to be saved. He taught that there is one gospel message, the same message to Jewish believer as to Gentile believers: one must believe by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is to be NO DISTINCTION concerning how one is saved, between Jewish believers & Gentile believers.
And to make the point even stronger, even the sect of the Pharisees, WHICH BELIEVED, did NOT add, as Jewish believers, the absolute necessity the absolute requirement that the Gentile believers MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED in order to be saved. It isn't taught in Scripture.
The isolated quoting of Mark 16:16 for example of losing one's salvation if not water baptized, ignores the last half of the verse & also the context in which it is found!
Mark 16:14-20 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat & upbraided them with their unbelief & hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen. 15And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world & preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents & if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick & they shall recover. Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:6-11)
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven & sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth & preached every where, the Lord working with them & confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
One will note that reading the full verse & in context does not teach that water baptism must be done to be saved but it does teach that one that is saved believes & is water baptized. The one that is damned is the one that does NOT BELIEVE. Scripture does not say & ADD the one that is damned is the one who does not believe AND is baptized.
As one can see, this poster believes in the ADDITION part above to Scripture & also that water baptism is NOT necessary for believers today to PRACTICE in light of Jesus' command to do so--because it is supposedly a different gospel than the one preached by Paul.
Also in context, one sees that as the gospel was being preached to every creature by all the apostles & all the disciples (whole book of Acts, Romans 16, etc.), the whole time 'the Lord was working with them & CONFIRMING THE WORD', this same one gospel message to be preached to every creature. It hasn't passed away. It is still being proclaimed: 'Repent & believe the gospel of the kingdom.' (Mark 1) Jesus again did NOT say, Repent, believe AND GET WATER BAPTIZED...
Jesus did NOT say, "Unless you repent AND GET WATER BAPTIZED, you will all likewise perish (Luke 9), when He was supposedly preaching another gospel, which you keep trying to teach was necessary, IN THE GOSPELS, for Jewish believers to do in order to be saved, a supposed Scriptural 'requirement'--which it is not.
Jesus is continuing to build His church, the one church, the one flock, the one congregation, the one dwelling place of God in the Spirit, the one Body of Christ.
First of all, it is not off topic because the very post says: "
The real purpose of water baptism in the NT
Our discussion is DIRECTLY on the discussion of this thread.
Second, you accuse me of trying to 'CONTROL' what people choose to respond to as if I am 'agitated.'
Those are bearing false witness concerning me. I am not agitated nor trying to control people's responses but concerned when someone is teaching more than one gospel, contrary to Scripture. This is a very serious error.
That is why I am warning others, when more than one gospel is being taught & that the very gospel of Jesus & the apostles & the prophets (they spoke of the one gospel as well) IS the foundation of the church, even today, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, holding it all together--& as you state is a second gospel that has passed away. (to be continued)
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Third, I did not ignore the passage. I did mention it but I deliberately did not address it in any detail--in your question in that post--to see how you would respond. And you responded like I thought you would.
And in Luke 7:29,30, it is again taken out of context & also ignores the rest of the testimony of Scripture, such as Acts 15. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.
Here is the isolated text you referred to, in its full context:
Luke 7:18-50 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art Thou He that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto Him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto Thee, saying, Art thou He that should come? or look we for another?
21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities & plagues, & of evil spirits & unto many that were blind He gave sight. 22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way & tell John what things ye have seen & heard;
how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, TO THE POOR THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED. 23And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me. Matthew 11:7-19; Luke 1:5-25; Luke 16:14-17)
24And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled & live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you & much more than a prophet.
27This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way before Thee.
28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29And all the people that heard him & the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees & lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? And to what are they like? 32They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace & calling one to another & saying, We have piped unto you & ye have not danced; we have mourned to you & ye have not wept.
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine & ye say, He hath a devil. 34The Son of man is come eating & drinking; & ye say, Behold a gluttonous man & a winebibber, a friend of publicans & sinners! 35But WISDOM is justified of all her children.
36And one of the Pharisees desired Him that He would eat with him. And He went into the Pharisee's house & sat down to meat. 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment & stood at His feet behind him weeping & began to wash his feet with tears & did wipe them with the hairs of her head & kissed His feet & anointed them with the ointment.
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden Him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if He were a prophet, would have known who & what manner of woman this is that toucheth Him: for she is a sinner.
40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed 500 pence & the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered & said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman & said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears & wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, ARE FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48And he said unto her, Thy sins ARE forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HAS SAVED THEE; GO IN PEACE.
In the context, the first section (vs 18-23) Jesus answers the disciples of John & in the context says that the gospel is preached to the poor. Nowhere there does Jesus, in preaching the gospel & healing Jewish people, state the baptism of John nor Jesus & His disciples baptizing people who believed in Jesus as NECESSARY AS A REQUIREMENT (according to your definition) TO BE SAVED FOR JEWISH PEOPLE.
In the next part of the context (vss 24-28), Jesus describes the ministry of John the Baptist, its purpose & who he is. Again no mention of John's baptism as necessary, as a requirement for Jewish believers in the Messiah--must do--in order to be saved. If it was vital for their salvation, Jesus would have taught so in both of these contextual sections.
John preached faith in the Messiah, predicted to come & now had come. He prepared the way of YHWH, which is Jesus, for the people to believe in Him. His was a message of preparation for the Jewish people, to prepare their hearts to believe in the Messiah for forgiveness & salvation.
Now we come to the isolated verses--you say--proves that John's baptism was necessary, was required, to save Jewish believers & without it, they could not be saved. But they are in a section of the context that goes from vs 29 to 35, so I will address this immediate context.
Simply reading what the Scripture actually SAYS, it says that all those in the crowd, including publicans, that had been baptized with the baptism of John JUSTIFIED GOD. It does NOT say, justified BY GOD, which directly has to do with salvation.
In CONTEXT, these Jewish people listening TO JESUS TEACHING about John & the purpose of his ministry. They were AGREEING with Jesus' teaching & thus JUSTIFIED GOD, that this ministry of John was confirming God's righteous message through him.
Again no mention--in this contextual section--is made that John's baptism or even Jesus' disciples water baptizing Jews is necessary, is a vital requirement, for them to be saved & without it they could not be saved.
And in vs 30, it DOES NOT SAY that the Pharisees & the lawyers were not saved because they rejected John's baptism, but that they rejected the counsel of God against themselves, that pointed to the Messiah being the the Savior of the world & that belief in Him saves them.
John the Baptist warned them at that time, when they refused to be baptized by him, of fleeing from the wrath of God that would come for rejecting his MESSAGE that prepared people to meet their God & turn to Him to be saved & forgiven of their sins.
They were ALREADY LOST, so it wasn't a matter of losing their salvation if they didn't receive John's baptism, because they had no salvation with which to begin!
And later in Matt 23, Jesus then warns them that after 2 years of ministering with John the Baptist gone, they were now at the point of not escaping the wrath of God coming. They had further progressed in their UNBELIEF.
And the final section of the context in Luke 7 is that of the woman who anointed Jesus' with the precious ointment, cleaning his feet with her tears & hair. This is an example of such humility that is rare. She apparently was one that was not of the Jewish crowd that had received John's baptism but someone new.
Again it has much to teach us but again, Jesus never required this Jewish woman to be water baptized in order to be saved. But what did save this Jewish woman IN THE GOSPELS? It was her great love & humility & her faith in Jesus that saved this woman. She loved Jesus. She served Jesus. She truly anointed Him as the Messiah & in anticipation of Christ's coming death. Her faith in Jesus is what saved her not any water baptism, as Jesus directly said.
And he said unto her, "Thy sins ARE forgiven." And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, "Thy faith has saved thee, GO in peace."
Jesus did not say, Go & be baptized in water. He said it was her faith that saved her & because of her love for Jesus, willing to receive the ridicule of others for what she did, her sins, which were many, WERE FORGIVEN by Christ Himself. No works were mentioned as saving her; only her faith & her love & humbling herself before the Lord. God gives GRACE to the humble (James 4:6; I Pet 5:5) but opposes the proud.
And in Luke 7:29,30, it is again taken out of context & also ignores the rest of the testimony of Scripture, such as Acts 15. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.
Here is the isolated text you referred to, in its full context:
Luke 7:18-50 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art Thou He that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto Him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto Thee, saying, Art thou He that should come? or look we for another?
21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities & plagues, & of evil spirits & unto many that were blind He gave sight. 22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way & tell John what things ye have seen & heard;
how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, TO THE POOR THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED. 23And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me. Matthew 11:7-19; Luke 1:5-25; Luke 16:14-17)
24And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled & live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you & much more than a prophet.
27This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way before Thee.
28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29And all the people that heard him & the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees & lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? And to what are they like? 32They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace & calling one to another & saying, We have piped unto you & ye have not danced; we have mourned to you & ye have not wept.
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine & ye say, He hath a devil. 34The Son of man is come eating & drinking; & ye say, Behold a gluttonous man & a winebibber, a friend of publicans & sinners! 35But WISDOM is justified of all her children.
36And one of the Pharisees desired Him that He would eat with him. And He went into the Pharisee's house & sat down to meat. 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment & stood at His feet behind him weeping & began to wash his feet with tears & did wipe them with the hairs of her head & kissed His feet & anointed them with the ointment.
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden Him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if He were a prophet, would have known who & what manner of woman this is that toucheth Him: for she is a sinner.
40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed 500 pence & the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered & said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman & said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears & wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, ARE FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48And he said unto her, Thy sins ARE forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HAS SAVED THEE; GO IN PEACE.
In the context, the first section (vs 18-23) Jesus answers the disciples of John & in the context says that the gospel is preached to the poor. Nowhere there does Jesus, in preaching the gospel & healing Jewish people, state the baptism of John nor Jesus & His disciples baptizing people who believed in Jesus as NECESSARY AS A REQUIREMENT (according to your definition) TO BE SAVED FOR JEWISH PEOPLE.
In the next part of the context (vss 24-28), Jesus describes the ministry of John the Baptist, its purpose & who he is. Again no mention of John's baptism as necessary, as a requirement for Jewish believers in the Messiah--must do--in order to be saved. If it was vital for their salvation, Jesus would have taught so in both of these contextual sections.
John preached faith in the Messiah, predicted to come & now had come. He prepared the way of YHWH, which is Jesus, for the people to believe in Him. His was a message of preparation for the Jewish people, to prepare their hearts to believe in the Messiah for forgiveness & salvation.
Now we come to the isolated verses--you say--proves that John's baptism was necessary, was required, to save Jewish believers & without it, they could not be saved. But they are in a section of the context that goes from vs 29 to 35, so I will address this immediate context.
Simply reading what the Scripture actually SAYS, it says that all those in the crowd, including publicans, that had been baptized with the baptism of John JUSTIFIED GOD. It does NOT say, justified BY GOD, which directly has to do with salvation.
In CONTEXT, these Jewish people listening TO JESUS TEACHING about John & the purpose of his ministry. They were AGREEING with Jesus' teaching & thus JUSTIFIED GOD, that this ministry of John was confirming God's righteous message through him.
Again no mention--in this contextual section--is made that John's baptism or even Jesus' disciples water baptizing Jews is necessary, is a vital requirement, for them to be saved & without it they could not be saved.
And in vs 30, it DOES NOT SAY that the Pharisees & the lawyers were not saved because they rejected John's baptism, but that they rejected the counsel of God against themselves, that pointed to the Messiah being the the Savior of the world & that belief in Him saves them.
John the Baptist warned them at that time, when they refused to be baptized by him, of fleeing from the wrath of God that would come for rejecting his MESSAGE that prepared people to meet their God & turn to Him to be saved & forgiven of their sins.
They were ALREADY LOST, so it wasn't a matter of losing their salvation if they didn't receive John's baptism, because they had no salvation with which to begin!
And later in Matt 23, Jesus then warns them that after 2 years of ministering with John the Baptist gone, they were now at the point of not escaping the wrath of God coming. They had further progressed in their UNBELIEF.
And the final section of the context in Luke 7 is that of the woman who anointed Jesus' with the precious ointment, cleaning his feet with her tears & hair. This is an example of such humility that is rare. She apparently was one that was not of the Jewish crowd that had received John's baptism but someone new.
Again it has much to teach us but again, Jesus never required this Jewish woman to be water baptized in order to be saved. But what did save this Jewish woman IN THE GOSPELS? It was her great love & humility & her faith in Jesus that saved this woman. She loved Jesus. She served Jesus. She truly anointed Him as the Messiah & in anticipation of Christ's coming death. Her faith in Jesus is what saved her not any water baptism, as Jesus directly said.
And he said unto her, "Thy sins ARE forgiven." And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, "Thy faith has saved thee, GO in peace."
Jesus did not say, Go & be baptized in water. He said it was her faith that saved her & because of her love for Jesus, willing to receive the ridicule of others for what she did, her sins, which were many, WERE FORGIVEN by Christ Himself. No works were mentioned as saving her; only her faith & her love & humbling herself before the Lord. God gives GRACE to the humble (James 4:6; I Pet 5:5) but opposes the proud.
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That is up the individual themselves to decide. If you want to do various works, that is of course one option.
For me, I would be very curious to find out more about God and who he is.
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Your way of interpreting bible is one of Covenant Theology. That is one common way too and I respect that.
If you think Paul preached the same gospel as what Jesus and the 12 preached in Matt-John, we can agree to disagree there. Your entire tone in both your postings is very agitated so let us leave it as that. Cheers.
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You have an interesting point of dispute there. Isn't it clear, when you read Matthew to early Acts, that Jesus and the 12 preached obedience to the Law, together with Faith?
Even as late as Acts 21, James, the head of Jerusalem HQ, continue to insist to Paul that the Jews must be "zealous for the law", and wanted Paul to participate in the ceremonies to show his obedience to the Law.
The ascended Christ revealed to Paul a "mystery" that was hidden in God from the past generations of prophets (Colossians 1:26, Ephesians 3:9). A mystery that Jesus himself could not reveal during the 4 Gospels. So there is nothing blasphemous in making the conclusion that Jesus did not preach the same gospel when he was in the flesh.
Paul himself stated clearly in 2 Cor 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
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But who is the one whom you would say demonstrates the most gratitude and gratefulness for the salvation he claims by grace through Christ?
1. The one who continues on in the sin he claims to have been saved from and persists in adhering to the lies he believed prior to the salvation he claims, pursuing after the things of this world rather than the things of Heaven?
2. The one who no longer seeks to live in the sin from which he turned away but now seeks to live in a manner pleasing and honoring to Christ, devoting himself to those things pertaining to Heaven rather than the things of this present world and who no longer adheres to the falsehoods he once believed?
"For me, I would be very curious to find out more about God and who he is."
As should we all.
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It is sad that you are revealing who you really are before all those reading these posts & truly need our prayers. I have prayed for you. I wonder if you have prayed for me.
Again your discernment is wrong. I don't use as my method of interpretation the theological doctrine of Covenant Theology.
And once again your false judgment is evident in saying that 'the entire tone in both (posts) is very agitated.' It was wrong the first time you said I was agitated & it is wrong that you now say I am VERY agitated.
The sad thing is that you seem to be trying to agitate me, which is not working. Here is how the Bible describes what agitation actually is:
Matt 8:24 And behold, the water became very agitated on the sea, so that the ship was covered by the waves; but He slept.
Psalm 77:18 Your thunderous sound was in a whirlwind; Your lightning lights up the world; the earth becomes agitated & quakes.
Lam 1:20 Behold, O Lord, how distressed I am! My vital parts (emotions) are in tumult & are deeply disturbed; my heart cannot rest & is violently agitated within me...
Dan 2:1 In the 2nd year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams by which his spirit was troubled & agitated & his sleep went from him.
You say you respect what I believe, yet you disrespect me, calling me a liar, saying I am not just agitated but now very agitated, which as God is my witness is not true.
I told you my true motive, that of concern for you-- since you teach another gospel, by a different Jesus & by a different spirit than the biblical one--and concern for others that they would fall into the same error.
2 Cor 11:3,4 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity & purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes & preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a DIFFERENT GOSPEL which you have not accepted, you're all too willing to put up with that.
Gal 1:6 I am amazed how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ & are turning to a different gospel...
And my concern motivates me to show your 'recent in history' teaching is in contrast with what the Scriptures say in context & repeatedly.
All can see what you are doing that read these posts. And if that isn't enough, you keep showing your true character & deception.
You state: "Your entire tone in both your postings is very agitated so let us leave it as that. Cheers."
You again show disregard for me & yourself in your statement above. To one who is not only agitated but greatly agitated, you should be concerned about my welfare. Instead you simply say, 'Cheers.'
It is like the Apostle James says:
"If a brother or sister is without clothing & in need of daily food & one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed & be filled & yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?"
And you also say, since I am supposedly very agitated, 'let us leave it as that.'
So I considered that, until you weren't a man of your word. You couldn't leave it as that. You went contrary to what you said you would do. You had to make yet another post, quoting me once again. You didn't leave it. I am wondering who is the one who is agitated & who is showing false judgments & appears to be bordering on hypocrisy.
And you question my concern about your welfare & the welfare of others who may be misled by your recent history theology that teaches contrary to the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
And my concern goes further for your eternal welfare when you make a statement like this:
By your own confession & by your own words, will you face the Judge of all the earth. May God have mercy & bring about a change of mind & heart before you die in what you believe.
The one gospel is ETERNAL. It hasn't ever changed, just like God hasn't changed. It has been the same gospel before the world was created & will remain the same good news through eternity in the future.
Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair & he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language & people.
I Pet 1:23-25 For you have been BORN AGAIN, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living & enduring word of God. For, “All flesh is like grass & all its glory like the flowers of the field; the grass withers & the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord remains FOREVER.” And this word is THE GOOD NEWS that was preached to you.
And you left out what the mystery OF THE GOSPEL (definite article) is:
Eph 3:4-6 As you read what I have written, you will understand my insight into this mysterious plan regarding Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as now it has been revealed in the Spirit to His holy apostles AND PROPHETS. This mystery is that THE GENTILES are fellow heirs, members of the same body & partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus THROUGH THE GOSPEL.
Acts 10:27-29 As Peter talked with him, he went inside & found many people gathered together. He said to them, “You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. So when I was invited, I came without objection.
Acts 11:1ff The apostles AND brothers throughout Judea soon heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers took issue with him & said, “You visited uncircumcised men & ate with them.”
Just then, three men sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. The Spirit told me to accompany them without hesitation. These six brothers also went with me & we entered the man’s home. He told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house & saying, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will convey to you A MESSAGE by which you & all your household WILL BE SAVED.’
15As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as He had come upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as HE USED TO SAY, ‘John baptized with water, BUT you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them THE SAME GIFT AS HE GAVE TO US WHO BELIEVED IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, who was I to hinder the work of God?”
18When they heard this, their objections WERE PUT TO REST & they glorified God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
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The way u phrase, I supposed you want me to say the 2nd person did a better job? Your point is?
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You mean it was not clear to you that Jesus preached obedience to the law in the 4 gospels? Many times obedience was even linked to salvation.
Would quoting scriptures change your mind?
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Which do YOU think is the best answer? Which one do YOU aspire to be?
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I lean more towards renewing of mind. I believe that one must believe right first, then good deeds will naturally follow. But the aim is not to end up with good deeds, I like to reach a point where I don't even realized I am doing good, it all becomes natural to me.
The problem with the 2nd person is that he may reach a point where he actually thought those good deeds earn brownie points with God. Only the person will know his own motivation though.
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“I lean more towards renewing of mind. I believe that one must believe right first, then good deeds will naturally follow.”
You seem to at least understand that a saving faith in Christ is supposed to be life-changing and that we are not to be the same as we were before we came to faith in Christ.
“I like to reach a point where I don't even realized I am doing good, it all becomes natural to me.”
We should all strive to the point in our walk with the Lord where doing that which is right in His sight becomes natural to us. When we come to Christ, we receive in us a new nature. A nature that makes us want to be the best for our Lord that we can be, but because we were born into bodies of inherent sin, our sinful nature remains which is why there is this ongoing struggle between the new nature of the spirit and the old nature of sin, also called, metaphorically, the flesh, which will always continue to cause to come up short and every time that we find ourselves coming up short, that ought to remind us how reliant we are on the grace of our Lord for our salvation instead of our own merit and how dependent on His goodness we are instead of our own.
But if we strive to give strength to the spiritual nature and not the carnal, then we will find ourselves sinning less and less over time and more godly in nature. Our priorities will become more heavenward and less earth-centered.
But you seem to misunderstand the 2nd person. If you understood the 2nd person, the more you should want to follow his example. The faith of the second person is not just a mere profession of faith. His faith is life-changing and his life reflects and gives credibility to what he professes.
“The problem with the 2nd person is that he may reach a point where he actually thought those good deeds earn brownie points with God.”
Scripture says that “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” (1 Cor. 3:13-15)
This second person wants to honor God to the best of his ability in everything he does knowing that the honors, rewards, and treasures from Heaven far outweigh the temporal things of earth. He wants to be commended by His Lord. He does not want His God to be ashamed of him. Do you or do you not want more than to simply be saved like one who narrowly escaped his doom?
The man whose faith does not go beyond what could be described as lip service does not care and his life does not reflect the faith he professes as it should.
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But Paul teaches the same:
New Perspectives on Paul
by N. T Wright
Quote
3. Final Judgment According to Works
The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.
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